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21.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 7, 2016, 04:56
21.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 7, 2016, 04:56
Sep 7, 2016, 04:56
 
Orogogus wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 19:34:
jdreyer wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 16:09:
HorrorScope wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 14:50:
Dagnamit wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 14:25:
The only way we see price reductions in VR tech is if there's a viable challenger on the mid/low end. A rift with room-scale tracking and motion controls will end up being about the same price as a VIVE, $800. Both Oculus and Valve/HTC have been on record that new gear won't be arriving until, at least late 2017 and probably 2018, and they really have no reason to reduce price until a 3rd competitor appears.

Valve and Oculus are competitors, so we have that, don't treat them as we one.

But greater yet, if it is true buyers are drying up... that is the A#1 reason to reduce price or get V2 out soon. It doesn't matter about competition if people aren't buying.

I know this is obvious stuff, but you made it sound like they can just sit there because of a lack of competition. If people aren't buying in a market that is suggested to boom, you are dead if you don't do anything. Dead.

Vive/Rift are a duopoly. Even without direct collusion, it's a very uncompetitive market. You only need to see that the 'Rift retail is twice the price of the dev kits to see how inflated the price is.

But yeah, with buyers drying up they'll need to drop their price. But they can't do it too fast, or they will take a hit from people who bought at full price. We'll probably see a big Black Friday sale to wipe out overstock, since that's a way of reducing the price temporarily without getting complaints. Then we'll probably see a permanent price drop in 2017.

100% is the standard retailer and middleman add-on cost (i.e., 50% markup) for most consumer products. There are exceptions like PCs, printers and game consoles, but when you say OMG 100% MARKUP COLLUSION I'm not really seeing it.

I also don't think it's going to take a low cost alternative to push prices down. Oculus and Valve/HTC are recouping their R&D costs with this release, and they knew that the first generation was going to be for early adopters. Costs will go down as the technology stabilizes and production ramps up, just like they did for sound cards and CD-ROM drives, although this is more of a niche product and probably won't see a comparably dramatic drop.

Right, but if there was more competition, they'd be amortizing those research costs over a longer period in order to sell for a lower price today. A duopoly is as far from perfect competition as you can get while still having competition.
"Blizzard fucked up what should have been the easiest pile of free money ever." - NKD
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20.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Sep 7, 2016, 02:43
Dev
 
20.
Re: Morning Mobilization Sep 7, 2016, 02:43
Sep 7, 2016, 02:43
 Dev
 
Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 12:38:
Cutter wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 11:58:
I just want to know when the AIB RX 480 cards will be here en masse! I need a new card!

Is there some reason to avoid the Geforce 10xx series that I'm unaware of? I got a 1070 about 6 weeks ago and it was probably the most dramatic performance increase I've ever gotten from a GPU upgrade (previous card was a R9 280X).
Nope. Especially if you are doing VR. AMD REALLY dropped the ball in the current VR titles. They are really sucking. They have cards labeled for VR that cannot even do the minimum VR.
AMD defenders go on and on about how "just wait until DX12 VR comes along AMD will be great then!" but none of the current crop of VR bothers with that, and NVidia is just crushing in the VR realm right now.
19.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 19:34
19.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 19:34
Sep 6, 2016, 19:34
 
jdreyer wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 16:09:
HorrorScope wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 14:50:
Dagnamit wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 14:25:
The only way we see price reductions in VR tech is if there's a viable challenger on the mid/low end. A rift with room-scale tracking and motion controls will end up being about the same price as a VIVE, $800. Both Oculus and Valve/HTC have been on record that new gear won't be arriving until, at least late 2017 and probably 2018, and they really have no reason to reduce price until a 3rd competitor appears.

Valve and Oculus are competitors, so we have that, don't treat them as we one.

But greater yet, if it is true buyers are drying up... that is the A#1 reason to reduce price or get V2 out soon. It doesn't matter about competition if people aren't buying.

I know this is obvious stuff, but you made it sound like they can just sit there because of a lack of competition. If people aren't buying in a market that is suggested to boom, you are dead if you don't do anything. Dead.

Vive/Rift are a duopoly. Even without direct collusion, it's a very uncompetitive market. You only need to see that the 'Rift retail is twice the price of the dev kits to see how inflated the price is.

But yeah, with buyers drying up they'll need to drop their price. But they can't do it too fast, or they will take a hit from people who bought at full price. We'll probably see a big Black Friday sale to wipe out overstock, since that's a way of reducing the price temporarily without getting complaints. Then we'll probably see a permanent price drop in 2017.

100% is the standard retailer and middleman add-on cost (i.e., 50% markup) for most consumer products. There are exceptions like PCs, printers and game consoles, but when you say OMG 100% MARKUP COLLUSION I'm not really seeing it.

I also don't think it's going to take a low cost alternative to push prices down. Oculus and Valve/HTC are recouping their R&D costs with this release, and they knew that the first generation was going to be for early adopters. Costs will go down as the technology stabilizes and production ramps up, just like they did for sound cards and CD-ROM drives, although this is more of a niche product and probably won't see a comparably dramatic drop.
18.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 19:21
18.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 19:21
Sep 6, 2016, 19:21
 
Steazy wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 16:47:

Sony? Morpheus? PSVR? GearVR (low end)? StarVR? OSVR? (Ok just kidding OSVR is a joke, StarVR is basically a joke too).

PSVR might but it's not out yet and GearVR is pretty much a 360 degree video viewer. I'm pretty dubious about the quality of running a headset on a PS4, I'll be excited to try it out though.
17.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 16:47
17.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 16:47
Sep 6, 2016, 16:47
 
Dagnamit wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 14:25:
HorrorScope wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 13:50:
Cutter wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 11:58:
The only way we see price reductions in VR tech is if there's a viable challenger on the mid/low end. A rift with room-scale tracking and motion controls will end up being about the same price as a VIVE, $800. Both Oculus and Valve/HTC have been on record that new gear won't be arriving until, at least late 2017 and probably 2018, and they really have no reason to reduce price until a 3rd competitor appears. The limiting factor is the computer needed, not the headset.

Sony? Morpheus? PSVR? GearVR (low end)? StarVR? OSVR? (Ok just kidding OSVR is a joke, StarVR is basically a joke too).
16.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 16:14
16.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 16:14
Sep 6, 2016, 16:14
 
jdreyer wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 16:09:
But yeah, with buyers drying up they'll need to drop their price. But they can't do it too fast, or they will take a hit from people who bought at full price. We'll probably see a big Black Friday sale to wipe out overstock, since that's a way of reducing the price temporarily without getting complaints. Then we'll probably see a permanent price drop in 2017.

IMO with new consumer electronics you can drop the price aggressively as it comes with being an early adopter. Bluray was a more recent example of this. I'm sure they won't be too aggressive, but perhaps they should. Facebook has billions riding on its overall success as does pretty much every major electronics company have skin in the game. If this thing dies, ooooh boy.
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15.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 16:09
15.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 16:09
Sep 6, 2016, 16:09
 
HorrorScope wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 14:50:
Dagnamit wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 14:25:
The only way we see price reductions in VR tech is if there's a viable challenger on the mid/low end. A rift with room-scale tracking and motion controls will end up being about the same price as a VIVE, $800. Both Oculus and Valve/HTC have been on record that new gear won't be arriving until, at least late 2017 and probably 2018, and they really have no reason to reduce price until a 3rd competitor appears.

Valve and Oculus are competitors, so we have that, don't treat them as we one.

But greater yet, if it is true buyers are drying up... that is the A#1 reason to reduce price or get V2 out soon. It doesn't matter about competition if people aren't buying.

I know this is obvious stuff, but you made it sound like they can just sit there because of a lack of competition. If people aren't buying in a market that is suggested to boom, you are dead if you don't do anything. Dead.

Vive/Rift are a duopoly. Even without direct collusion, it's a very uncompetitive market. You only need to see that the 'Rift retail is twice the price of the dev kits to see how inflated the price is.

But yeah, with buyers drying up they'll need to drop their price. But they can't do it too fast, or they will take a hit from people who bought at full price. We'll probably see a big Black Friday sale to wipe out overstock, since that's a way of reducing the price temporarily without getting complaints. Then we'll probably see a permanent price drop in 2017.
"Blizzard fucked up what should have been the easiest pile of free money ever." - NKD
Avatar 22024
14.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 15:20
14.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 15:20
Sep 6, 2016, 15:20
 
Dagnamit wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 15:08:
Luke wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 14:37:

Guess ya have to say that with all those $ ya put in it , i see nothing more that beta crap there

It's certainly beta, but it's not crap. I have no illusions of what my $800 bought me.

Right. I can't say for everyone, but my gut tells me a lot of people are going around stating things a bit factual and have never even owned/tried one. Let alone know the true state of software availability. There is a bunch out there now, some have to be a fulfilling experience at the least.
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13.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 15:08
13.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 15:08
Sep 6, 2016, 15:08
 
Luke wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 14:37:

Guess ya have to say that with all those $ ya put in it , i see nothing more that beta crap there

It's certainly beta, but it's not crap. I have no illusions of what my $800 bought me.
12.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 14:50
12.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 14:50
Sep 6, 2016, 14:50
 
Dagnamit wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 14:25:
The only way we see price reductions in VR tech is if there's a viable challenger on the mid/low end. A rift with room-scale tracking and motion controls will end up being about the same price as a VIVE, $800. Both Oculus and Valve/HTC have been on record that new gear won't be arriving until, at least late 2017 and probably 2018, and they really have no reason to reduce price until a 3rd competitor appears.

Valve and Oculus are competitors, so we have that, don't treat them as we one.

But greater yet, if it is true buyers are drying up... that is the A#1 reason to reduce price or get V2 out soon. It doesn't matter about competition if people aren't buying.

I know this is obvious stuff, but you made it sound like they can just sit there because of a lack of competition. If people aren't buying in a market that is suggested to boom, you are dead if you don't do anything. Dead.

As for wireless latency. I think Valve has proven it gets it and they won't release something they know it going to piss off a lot of people.
Avatar 17232
11.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 14:37
11.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 14:37
Sep 6, 2016, 14:37
 
Dagnamit wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 13:32:
wtf_man wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 11:29:
Verno wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 10:45:
Not surprised about VR sales, the price points are too high and a lot of people don't want to be in on the first generation of the tech. I'm really interested but its inevitable that better products are coming so I'm just sitting it out until then. I don't mind the early adopter thing but it is a ton of cash to do it with VR so /shrug.

I actually have zero interest in owning VR. I think VR would be better served with a "brick and mortar shop" that has extremely expensive - cutting edge tech (Think Lawnmower Man), that folks could go visit for entertainment... like Paintball, Laser Tag, and those fast indoor electric go-cart places.

VR in the home can't compare to that.

I own the best (available), cutting-edge, tech (VIVE, though I would accept Rift as an answer too) and it's sitting on my computer desk with which I play paintball (rec room) and laser tag (battledome, raw data, onward) on a regular basis. The fact that I can do those things at home is the selling point.

VR in the home will never compare to in-person experiences, like paintball and laser tag, and it's not intended to replace those experiences. There's no substitute for being there and holding the real thing in your hands, but I can't fly a spaceship IRL and I can't go on a dungeon crawl IRL for phat lewts, etc...

If you haven't done it yet, give it a shot. I'm very pleased with my VIVE purchase.

Guess ya have to say that with all those $ ya put in it , i see nothing more that beta crap there
10.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 14:25
10.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 14:25
Sep 6, 2016, 14:25
 
HorrorScope wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 13:50:
Cutter wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 11:58:
I just want to know when the AIB RX 480 cards will be here en masse! I need a new card!

I've read that there is a bitcoin bot that is buying them all up, can't state if true or not but everyone seems to be having issues getting a hold of one. It seems several have been moving over to 1060's due to this.

----------------

In regards to VR. Yep, time to bring the price down and start working towards the next model. That is how electronics work. I'm totally for VR, but they are at the point if it is true that the ball is in their court now to make it more attractive. I was looking at early spring 2017, but something has to have changed by then, like a $200 reduction or better gear.

Weird, I thought that cryptocurrency mining w/ GPU's was dead years ago.

___________

I like your divider line. Yoink!

___________

The only way we see price reductions in VR tech is if there's a viable challenger on the mid/low end. A rift with room-scale tracking and motion controls will end up being about the same price as a VIVE, $800. Both Oculus and Valve/HTC have been on record that new gear won't be arriving until, at least late 2017 and probably 2018, and they really have no reason to reduce price until a 3rd competitor appears. The limiting factor is the computer needed, not the headset.

VR really takes off when they manage to cram the whole works into the headset, which will probably take 5-6 years at this point. Valve apparently has a wireless dongle prototype that works with a stock VIVE, though we have no idea on latency, which I'm sure is an absolute shitshow. If they want to continue to produce high-end games, a wireless feature will almost be necessary because they'll never be able to put the same tech in a headset as they will desktop, and the super-high end consumer will demand fidelity and performance that only a desktop can provide. We'll see though, the tech is certainly here to stay.
9.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 14:23
9.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 14:23
Sep 6, 2016, 14:23
 
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 14:05:
Or, a killer app/game that can be the standard bearer for VR. (looking at you, Half-Life 3)

I know that is used regularly and no I'm not going to say I don't want that. Also stated by several is the lack of content, but to me it seems like there is a lot of content for such a new platform.

Yes many are short and many are still figuring out what works or not. It also doesn't always have to be about Native VR games and on your feet V. I've read most still use their headsets in a sit down environment and revert back to standard games playing with the headset. That things that make you queezy at first, tend to fade after using the headset for a period of time.

I've stated for a while I'm cool with shorter games that are priced accordingly in any setting. That the game is over before the games mechanics are old and tired.

Overall I'd say VR game availability is in pretty good shape at this early stage. You don't have to go all that far back in video games that even when things weren't new, you really had to wait for content you wanted. Dry months...
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8.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 14:05
8.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 14:05
Sep 6, 2016, 14:05
 
HorrorScope wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 13:50:
Cutter wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 11:58:
I just want to know when the AIB RX 480 cards will be here en masse! I need a new card!

I've read that there is a bitcoin bot that is buying them all up, can't state if true or not but everyone seems to be having issues getting a hold of one. It seems several have been moving over to 1060's due to this.

The 1060 is superior in almost every way, at a very competitive price. I don't see why not.

In regards to VR. Yep, time to bring the price down and start working towards the next model. That is how electronics work. I'm totally for VR, but they are at the point if it is true that the ball is in their court now to make it more attractive. I was looking at early spring 2017, but something has to have changed by then, like a $200 reduction or better gear.

Or, a killer app/game that can be the standard bearer for VR. (looking at you, Half-Life 3)
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7.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 13:50
7.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 13:50
Sep 6, 2016, 13:50
 
Cutter wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 11:58:
I just want to know when the AIB RX 480 cards will be here en masse! I need a new card!

I've read that there is a bitcoin bot that is buying them all up, can't state if true or not but everyone seems to be having issues getting a hold of one. It seems several have been moving over to 1060's due to this.

----------------

In regards to VR. Yep, time to bring the price down and start working towards the next model. That is how electronics work. I'm totally for VR, but they are at the point if it is true that the ball is in their court now to make it more attractive. I was looking at early spring 2017, but something has to have changed by then, like a $200 reduction or better gear.
Avatar 17232
6.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 13:32
6.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 13:32
Sep 6, 2016, 13:32
 
wtf_man wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 11:29:
Verno wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 10:45:
Not surprised about VR sales, the price points are too high and a lot of people don't want to be in on the first generation of the tech. I'm really interested but its inevitable that better products are coming so I'm just sitting it out until then. I don't mind the early adopter thing but it is a ton of cash to do it with VR so /shrug.

I actually have zero interest in owning VR. I think VR would be better served with a "brick and mortar shop" that has extremely expensive - cutting edge tech (Think Lawnmower Man), that folks could go visit for entertainment... like Paintball, Laser Tag, and those fast indoor electric go-cart places.

VR in the home can't compare to that.

I own the best (available), cutting-edge, tech (VIVE, though I would accept Rift as an answer too) and it's sitting on my computer desk with which I play paintball (rec room) and laser tag (battledome, raw data, onward) on a regular basis. The fact that I can do those things at home is the selling point.

VR in the home will never compare to in-person experiences, like paintball and laser tag, and it's not intended to replace those experiences. There's no substitute for being there and holding the real thing in your hands, but I can't fly a spaceship IRL and I can't go on a dungeon crawl IRL for phat lewts, etc...

If you haven't done it yet, give it a shot. I'm very pleased with my VIVE purchase.
5.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 12:59
Verno
 
5.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 12:59
Sep 6, 2016, 12:59
 Verno
 
wtf_man wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 11:29:
I actually have zero interest in owning VR. I think VR would be better served with a "brick and mortar shop" that has extremely expensive - cutting edge tech (Think Lawnmower Man), that folks could go visit for entertainment... like Paintball, Laser Tag, and those fast indoor electric go-cart places.

VR in the home can't compare to that.

Have you tried the Rift or Vive? Modern VR is pretty compelling, even if just for watching some videos and playing the odd game. It's just really early days still, no point in getting into it when the gear/software is so immature.

The problem with the arcade approach is that it requires huge capital investment and people are visiting retail less, not more. The Playdium model is not something I can see working well with VR outside of demo purposes. You remove the audience from the experience with the tech itself which hurts its appeal as a spectator thing. I really like the tech itself, very very cool stuff. I wouldn't want it for all games but there's definitely a market for it.
Playing: Trials of Mana Remake, FF7R
Watching: Into the Light
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4.
 
Re: Morning Mobilization
Sep 6, 2016, 12:38
4.
Re: Morning Mobilization Sep 6, 2016, 12:38
Sep 6, 2016, 12:38
 
Cutter wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 11:58:
I just want to know when the AIB RX 480 cards will be here en masse! I need a new card!

Is there some reason to avoid the Geforce 10xx series that I'm unaware of? I got a 1070 about 6 weeks ago and it was probably the most dramatic performance increase I've ever gotten from a GPU upgrade (previous card was a R9 280X).
3.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 11:58
Cutter
 
3.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 11:58
Sep 6, 2016, 11:58
 Cutter
 
I just want to know when the AIB RX 480 cards will be here en masse! I need a new card!
"Whatever you say Stone Cold Steve Austin…I don't know why I just said that. Doesn't make a lot of sense, but gonna stand by it. Whatever you say Stone Cold Steve Austin! I'm owning it." - Rick Sanchez
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2.
 
Re: Morning Tech Bits
Sep 6, 2016, 11:29
2.
Re: Morning Tech Bits Sep 6, 2016, 11:29
Sep 6, 2016, 11:29
 
Verno wrote on Sep 6, 2016, 10:45:
Not surprised about VR sales, the price points are too high and a lot of people don't want to be in on the first generation of the tech. I'm really interested but its inevitable that better products are coming so I'm just sitting it out until then. I don't mind the early adopter thing but it is a ton of cash to do it with VR so /shrug.

I actually have zero interest in owning VR. I think VR would be better served with a "brick and mortar shop" that has extremely expensive - cutting edge tech (Think Lawnmower Man), that folks could go visit for entertainment... like Paintball, Laser Tag, and those fast indoor electric go-cart places.

VR in the home can't compare to that.
Get your games from GOG DAMMIT!
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