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PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power

Details on the next PCI Express spec are showing up following last week's Intel Developer Forum. PCMag.com says PCIe 4.0 will arrive next year, bringing speed improvements and enhanced efficiency while maintaining backward compatibility. They also offer first word on a version 5.0 to follow. According to Tom's Hardware (thanks PCGamesN) the spec includes at least 300W of power through the slot, which may eliminate the need for auxiliary power cables for some GPUs. Here's a bit:

When we asked the PCI-SIG, we received the news that for the first time, PCIe will get a massive power increase at the connector. Solomon couldn't recall the exact ceiling because member companies have proposed several options. Solomon stated that the minimum would be 300W, but the ceiling “may be 400 or 500W."

Even with the minimum 300 watts, there is more than enough power provided by the edge connector to run a GeForce GTX 1080 (reference design 180 watts) and Titan X (250 watts) without an external power source. PCI Express 3.0 provides a maximum of 75 watts thus far, though many slots support the default 25W. The rating for a x16 lane card comes from 3 amps at 3.3 volts and 5.5 amps at 12 volts, which is a rating that dates back to the introduction of PCI Express 1.0a in 2003.

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33. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 22:24 Enahs
 
This and the increased speed is more about making the GPUs better for general purpose calculations and servers, not gaming. Gaming will get the benefits from it in several years, yes. But this is about making small scale to crazy large scale GPu accelerated clusters easier to maintain and upgrade, as well as perform better.
 
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32. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 20:13 CJ_Parker
 
It's confirmed somewhere in there that PCIe 4.0 is not going to be in Kaby Lake (Q2/2017 for highend desktop CPUs) so the earliest gen we'll see it on Intel boards will probably be Cannonlake.
There is also not much "strangling" going on. The bandwidth of PCIe 3.0 is still totes sufficient for the vast majority of home users, especially for AMD peasants with their low end graphics cards .
Seriously tho, you'd have to go crazy with multi GPU, several high end NVMe/m.2 SSDs and Gigabit LAN etc. to come even close to exhausting PCIe 3.0 bandwidth.
It won't be a relevant (tangible performance benefits) upgrade for 95%+ of the regular gaming populace out there.
 
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31. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 19:41 Qbex .
 
I smell Intel trying to strangle Zen in its infancy, just in time for AMD launch its cpu savior (with PCIe3.0 no doubt) Intel will smack that platform with new and Intel exclusive PCIe 4.0 and promise of DDR5 ram, just you wait.  
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30. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 18:55 CJ_Parker
 
Well, look at a typical 8-pin power cable from PSU to GPU. It ain't exactly a marvel of engineering and typically does not catch fire under load (as long as the PSU and the cable is OK Wink ). I'm sure they will be able to integrate this into the mobo PCB just fine. A li'l more plastic + mantling here and there will not break the bank.  
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29. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 18:35 Simon Says
 
Creston wrote on Aug 22, 2016, 18:09:
ldonyo wrote on Aug 22, 2016, 17:29:
What is a power draw like that going to do to the traces and the PCB itself? Pulling four times the power is going to be murder on the materials currently used, so something is going to have to change to accommodate the increased power draw.

They'll use better materials, and thus the motherboards will get more expensive. That's why I'm not happy when they're talking about useless 500W figures, because it'll up the price of a mobo by... what, 20, 30 bucks, for absolutely no purpose.

Yup, and the crosstalk is going to become a problem pretty fast, forcing you into repeated purchases and upgrades, more programmed obsolescence.
 
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28. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 18:29 LittleMe
 
Yeah it's going to make motherboards more expensive. Anal retentive pc builders who don't want cables rejoice, the rest of us have to pay more and I think there will be motherboards that will not be designed well and ripple the current or catch fire or who knows what... That's a lot of current for a motherboard. I like the present 75w design just fine!  
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27. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 18:09 Creston
 
ldonyo wrote on Aug 22, 2016, 17:29:
What is a power draw like that going to do to the traces and the PCB itself? Pulling four times the power is going to be murder on the materials currently used, so something is going to have to change to accommodate the increased power draw.

They'll use better materials, and thus the motherboards will get more expensive. That's why I'm not happy when they're talking about useless 500W figures, because it'll up the price of a mobo by... what, 20, 30 bucks, for absolutely no purpose.
 
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26. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 17:29 ldonyo
 
What is a power draw like that going to do to the traces and the PCB itself? Pulling four times the power is going to be murder on the materials currently used, so something is going to have to change to accommodate the increased power draw.  
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25. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 15:44 Wallshadows
 
Oops. Double post.  
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24. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 15:41 Wallshadows
 
I absolutely love chambered cases where the PSU is separated from the rest of the case but am not big on panel windows so I might have to go to a H440 which is $80 off at Newegg + a 5% promo. NZXT and Phanteks make some great looking cases and are typically in the same ball park in terms of pricing and build quality.  
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23. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 15:37 CJ_Parker
 
I can't wait for PCIe 4.0 and corresponding graphics cards. With m.2 SSDs finally becoming more widespread and affordable, the dream of a nearly cable-free PC is getting closer. It looks like all you will need as of Cannonlake and later will be a 24-pin ATX plug and maybe a couple fan cables for the CPU and the case fans and that's it.  
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22. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 15:33 Burrito of Peace
 
If we're recommending cases, my vote is for an Antec Thirteen Hundred. 12 HDD bays for both 3.5 and 2.5 inch form factors and I loaded mine with Noctua fans. It currently holds a 44TB ESXi server and runs quiet while still keeping HDD, MB, and CPU temps in the 40C range. I consider that acceptable given that it runs 24/7 and is being used as a VM host, with one of those hosts being an Oracle DB server and another being a NAS VM that is used constantly.  
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21. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 15:22 HoSpanky
 
WallShadows: The Source 210 is decent. I have a pair of them, and would VERY much recommend you get the Elite model. It comes with a front USB3, and snap-lock drive mounts.
My main machine is in an S340, which is GORGEOUS but has worrisome airflow and a window that scratches from contact with...anything. Both issues are solved by running it with the side open, but I don't have kids who would stick their fingers in there.

If you still need a disc drive, get the 210. If you want a case designed to hide wires better than you've ever thought possible (and don't need a disc drive), get a 340. The S340 really does looks impossibly clean when you're finished. Both cases can hold two full length video cards and an AIO watercooler, as I've personally done it. With one card, either case manages the heat just fine.
 
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20. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 14:58 wtf_man
 
HoSpanky wrote on Aug 22, 2016, 10:22:
My question is, really...WHY? If I have to run another power connector to the motherboard, I can just as easily run that to the video card. Feels a lot like a solution in search of a problem.

The only advantage that I can see would be for "mini systems" (Like a NUC) or gaming laptops being able to power higher end GPUs... but battery life would be out the window for laptops.

Also, the Laptop 1060, 1070, and 180 are supposed to be nearly as fast as the Desktop version... so I'm not sure extra power is totally necessary.
 
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19. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 14:15 Simon Says
 
Creston wrote on Aug 22, 2016, 13:28:
LittleMe wrote on Aug 22, 2016, 13:23:
What's this going to do for PSU requirements? If someone is using a low power card, will they still be required to get a 500W+ PSU just because PCIe 4 motherboard requires it? That's what it appears to do. Is there a option in the spec to drop to 75w or less?

You only have to spec your PSU to TPD, aka, the amount of power actually drawn by your system. The bus isn't going to draw 300W of power if it only needs 120W. What's it going to do with the other 180W?

Yup, that's a very good point, will motherboards require that PSUs be able to feed the 300/400/500W before being able to boot, aka, that all connectors are plugged even if you won't even use them at all or use it all?

My only wish is that GPU makers realize that most of their sales come from older PC upgrades, not new PCs. Considering the super slowing down of Moore's law lately with CPUs taking 7-8 years to double in perf, case in point: i7-920 VS i7-6700k, at stock speeds the 6700k is exactly twice as fast in both singlethread and multithread. Overclocked the data is even worse.

GPUs as well as CPUs progressions has also slowed down considerably leading to less repeated purchases.

Anyway, unless they let a lot of years pass from the time PCIE 4.0 is integrated into their GPU to the time that they remove the extra power connectors, GPU makers will see their sales plummet to record lows.

A good compromise would see AIBs sell "legacy" PCIE 4.0 cards with the connectors still availlable while reference cards and other AIB models could rely exclusively on the PCIE 4.0 port juice.

Let us hope they'll be smart on this one, or this is gonna turn quickly into a clusterfuck.
 
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18. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 13:42 Wallshadows
 
Beamer wrote on Aug 22, 2016, 13:30:
Can it handle the massive length of modern GPUs?

I probably shouldn't have called it a shitty case because it has served me incredibly well over the years and is in a class of its own when it comes to silence.

The P182 and possibly the generations which come after it all have exceptional space when it comes to the length of the GPU and the height of the CPU heatsink. The 290x is 293mm long and it still fits even with the drive bay in place. Take it out and you have another six or seven inches of clearance to soak in all that fresh air.

It's definitely something which has spoiled me and left me a little ignorant towards. When shopping for a new case, I always forgot that dimensions matter and some cases simply have to be written off entirely regardless of how nice they are because you're 5mm too high or long.
 
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17. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 13:30 Beamer
 
DG wrote on Aug 22, 2016, 12:55:
Wallshadows wrote on Aug 22, 2016, 12:01:
This is more to do with a real shitty case when it comes to airflow though. My nearly 10 year old Antec P182 isn't built for it.
I have that case, I've no desire to get a new one since my temps are all low despite the case fans being on low.

Can it handle the massive length of modern GPUs?

My new PC build was a comedy of errors. I wanted to reuse my PSU, my RAM, and my case (and the HDD/SSD, though with a new SSD as the boot drive.) First, it turned out the PSU didn't have enough 8pin connectors. Had to replace that. Then it turned out my case wasn't long enough for the 970. Had to replace that. In the long run, the RAM was all I reused, and RAM is cheap, and for $10 I could have had a newer generation i5 over the one I bought.
 
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16. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 13:30 Wallshadows
 
LittleMe wrote on Aug 22, 2016, 13:23:
What's this going to do for PSU requirements? If someone is using a low power card, will they still be required to get a 500W+ PSU just because PCIe 4 motherboard requires it? That's what it appears to do. Is there a option in the spec to drop to 75w or less?

It shouldn't do anything. It just means that the slot can power up to 300 watts if needed before the card requires extra power through pin connections.
 
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15. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 13:28 Creston
 
LittleMe wrote on Aug 22, 2016, 13:23:
What's this going to do for PSU requirements? If someone is using a low power card, will they still be required to get a 500W+ PSU just because PCIe 4 motherboard requires it? That's what it appears to do. Is there a option in the spec to drop to 75w or less?

You only have to spec your PSU to TPD, aka, the amount of power actually drawn by your system. The bus isn't going to draw 300W of power if it only needs 120W. What's it going to do with the other 180W?
 
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14. Re: PCIe 4.0 to Deliver More Speed and Power Aug 22, 2016, 13:23 LittleMe
 
What's this going to do for PSU requirements? If someone is using a low power card, will they still be required to get a 500W+ PSU just because PCIe 4 motherboard requires it? That's what it appears to do. Is there a option in the spec to drop to 75w or less?  
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