Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed

Blizzard tweets about plans to launch competitive play in Overwatch, saying "We'll be introducing our Competitive Play (hopefully) later in July," a change from their previously announced intention to get this going by the end of this month. A later tweet specifies: "We're aiming for mid-to-late July." In related news, Overwatch principle designer Geoff Goodman touches on balance changes for the multiplayer shooter in a couple of replies to a thread on the Overwatch forums on the topic. Blizzard has not discussed balance changes before, and this is not comprehensive, but he does specifically mention the possibility of nerfing McCree and buffing D.Va. This post about D.Va says that she probably need improvements, but based on the nature of the character he says that this is unlikely to be in the form of increased damage, and in this post he discusses corralling everyone's favorite cowboy:
I've been watching McCree carefully since we've released. McCree's flashbang plays an important role in being a strong option against very fast/agile teams (tracers/genjis/etc). It is also a nice tool to prevent close range devastating abilities and ultimates such as Reaper's Death Blossom.

That said, its probably a bit too good at dealing damage to higher health targets such as Tanks and barriers. I don't have any concrete changes yet, but I'm going to be testing some things internally to see how he plays.
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No subject
Jun 1, 2016, 08:47
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No subject Jun 1, 2016, 08:47
Jun 1, 2016, 08:47
 
Blizzard devs can't balance a seesaw so whenever they discuss doing so in their games really makes me concerned.
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 09:10
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 09:10
Jun 1, 2016, 09:10
 
Been playing since Sunday. McCree seems fun, but he is a one trick pony and he is far less dangerous than Tracer IMO. I was loath to buy the game in the first place but a RL friend of mine convinced me to do so, and it does scratch that mindless fun itch I guess and there is no denying the Blizzard polish. I loath to see the damn "balance" changes that Blizzard will no doubt be forcing down our throats every couple of weeks or months but what the hell, there is no way Im gonna be playing this competitively anyway...
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 09:11
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 09:11
Jun 1, 2016, 09:11
 
Blizzard devs can't balance a seesaw

Really? I think people severely underestimate how difficult "balancing" really is... they had trouble balancing WoW PvP because it isn't designed to be PvP from the ground up.

For basically every other game they've designed they use an intricate rock/paper/scissors style balance that works extremely well.
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 09:34
PHJF
 
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 09:34
Jun 1, 2016, 09:34
 PHJF
 
dva needs to have a damage boost, end of story. Another good recommendation somebody made was to have her critbox located on her ass instead of her face. Do both of those, get rid of the warning when using her Ult, and she *might* be at least PLAYABLE.
Steam + PSN: PHJF
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 10:17
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 10:17
Jun 1, 2016, 10:17
 
descender wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 09:11:

Really? I think people severely underestimate how difficult "balancing" really is... they had trouble balancing WoW PvP because it isn't designed to be PvP from the ground up.

For basically every other game they've designed they use an intricate rock/paper/scissors style balance that works extremely well.

The balance in PvP is really bad where only a handful of comps can compete above 2k rating but I'd dare say that PvE is even worse where there are such monstrous disparities from the top and the bottom. As an example, In HFC you're a Rogue and you play anything but Subtlety you're literally doing it wrong. We're not talking 5 - 10% difference between specs, we're talking nearly 100% better than Assassination and nearly 60% better than Combat. If you go MM Hunter which is the top Hunter spec you're smack in the middle and behind a Sub Rogue by about 30%.

Unfortunately, this is how raids tend to unfold for as long as I can remember. You have top-tier specs which you can stack, mid-tier specs which can pull themselves up because of their utility, and then you have garbage tier specs which are more of a liability than a benefit. If I were on even Heroic progression and our Mage was playing Frost rather than Arcane or Fire, that's a huge problem for the group since the game has moved far and away from "bring the player, not the class" thanks to their terrible balance and encounter designs.

Now they're introducing two additional layers of balance with Artifacts and Legendary items which populate trash mobs in the open world that can have varying degrees of performance gains. Oh boy, I can't wait until my spec goes from awesome to garbage in the next tier because of balance and design and I have to regrind the favorable spec assuming I'm not one of several classes that only has one DPS spec.
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 10:30
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 10:30
Jun 1, 2016, 10:30
 
I think you did a great job of highlighting exactly why balancing is hard, and also why MMO's are a waste of time.
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 10:43
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 10:43
Jun 1, 2016, 10:43
 
VaranDragon wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 09:10:
Been playing since Sunday. McCree seems fun, but he is a one trick pony and he is far less dangerous than Tracer IMO. I was loath to buy the game in the first place but a RL friend of mine convinced me to do so, and it does scratch that mindless fun itch I guess and there is no denying the Blizzard polish. I loath to see the damn "balance" changes that Blizzard will no doubt be forcing down our throats every couple of weeks or months but what the hell, there is no way Im gonna be playing this competitively anyway...

McCree is good in the hands of a beginner, and ridiculously good in a hands of a pro. Along with Widowmaker, they're the two most OP heroes at high levels of play.
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 11:17
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 11:17
Jun 1, 2016, 11:17
 
Wallshadows wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 10:17:
descender wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 09:11:

Really? I think people severely underestimate how difficult "balancing" really is... they had trouble balancing WoW PvP because it isn't designed to be PvP from the ground up.

For basically every other game they've designed they use an intricate rock/paper/scissors style balance that works extremely well.

The balance in PvP is really bad where only a handful of comps can compete above 2k rating but I'd dare say that PvE is even worse where there are such monstrous disparities from the top and the bottom. As an example, In HFC you're a Rogue and you play anything but Subtlety you're literally doing it wrong. We're not talking 5 - 10% difference between specs, we're talking nearly 100% better than Assassination and nearly 60% better than Combat. If you go MM Hunter which is the top Hunter spec you're smack in the middle and behind a Sub Rogue by about 30%.

Unfortunately, this is how raids tend to unfold for as long as I can remember. You have top-tier specs which you can stack, mid-tier specs which can pull themselves up because of their utility, and then you have garbage tier specs which are more of a liability than a benefit. If I were on even Heroic progression and our Mage was playing Frost rather than Arcane or Fire, that's a huge problem for the group since the game has moved far and away from "bring the player, not the class" thanks to their terrible balance and encounter designs.

Now they're introducing two additional layers of balance with Artifacts and Legendary items which populate trash mobs in the open world that can have varying degrees of performance gains. Oh boy, I can't wait until my spec goes from awesome to garbage in the next tier because of balance and design and I have to regrind the favorable spec assuming I'm not one of several classes that only has one DPS spec.

Well, that is why they're splitting PVP and PVE balancing in Legion.
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 11:30
9.
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 11:30
Jun 1, 2016, 11:30
 
Wallshadows wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 08:47:
Blizzard devs can't balance a seesaw so whenever they discuss doing so in their games really makes me concerned.

Usually the balancing issue is a lot harder in an MMO than 1 OP character in a Team vs Team shooter. There aren't as many endgame things to think about.

The issue with McCree is he is god tier for anyone with a brain who can manage to hit E and Right click fast enough. There should never have been a character that had an easy "I win" button against every other character in the game.

Though personally I feel like the fix is easy, either reduce the damage of fan hammer or make the Flashbang actually WORK like a flashbang instead of a stun grenade. Make it blind people momentarily but allow them to be able to still move to attempt dodging the fanhammer or at least be able to blindly fire back and the problem is solved.

There is no excuse for McCree being able to throw a "Flash"bang at a D.va with 2 repeating shotguns in his face and be able to win that fight. If she were merely blinded she could just keep holding the trigger down and hope she gets lucky shot on McCree's face, or hit Shift and tear off or E to block the fan hammer, instead the "Flash"bang "Stuns" and that is what irritates me the most.
-C22
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 11:32
10.
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 11:32
Jun 1, 2016, 11:32
 
I may consider it when they put in a ranking system for competitive play, not because I'm a hardcore fragger, but because there is a horde of Blizzard fans that only know casual gameplay and are newbs with first-person-shooter dynamics, team tactics, and teamwork via voice comm.
11.
 
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 11:42
11.
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 11:42
Jun 1, 2016, 11:42
 
Also, I also played this on a PS4 with 5.1 surround sound on a big screen TV...it was a fantastic experience with beautiful and smooth graphics, amazing sound, and the gameplay works great with a gamepad
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 12:16
12.
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 12:16
Jun 1, 2016, 12:16
 
theglaze wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 11:42:
Also, I also played this on a PS4 with 5.1 surround sound on a big screen TV...it was a fantastic experience with beautiful and smooth graphics, amazing sound, and the gameplay works great with a gamepad

Console peasant lies Devilish
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 12:37
13.
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 12:37
Jun 1, 2016, 12:37
 
theglaze wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 11:42:
Also, I also played this on a PS4 with 5.1 surround sound on a big screen TV...it was a fantastic experience with beautiful and smooth graphics, amazing sound, and the gameplay works great with a gamepad

I can do the same speakers on a PC, using the same TV as a monitor, with even better graphics, more gameplay options, and aim significantly better with a mouse than the most elite console players. If you're trying to argue the merits of a console vs PC, you will lose everytime.
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 12:40
14.
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 12:40
Jun 1, 2016, 12:40
 
I thought about getting this, and went back to TF2 to see if I really felt like a team shooter. A couple of hours later, I was all done.

I think I just don't go for them anymore, played too many. Anyhow, doing things this way saved me 40 bucks.
Kittens!
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 12:49
15.
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 12:49
Jun 1, 2016, 12:49
 
Jagacademy wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 12:37:
theglaze wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 11:42:
Also, I also played this on a PS4 with 5.1 surround sound on a big screen TV...it was a fantastic experience with beautiful and smooth graphics, amazing sound, and the gameplay works great with a gamepad

I can do the same speakers on a PC, using the same TV as a monitor, with even better graphics, more gameplay options, and aim significantly better with a mouse than the most elite console players. If you're trying to argue the merits of a console vs PC, you will lose everytime.


Arguing about PC vs Console on a PC Centric website, way to play it extremely safe. You're also incorrect, the game plays wonderfully on the console. PC vs Console on Overwatch is entirely subjective. I have played it on PC and Xbox One and I happen to prefer the One's closed environment and level playing field.

The same goes for any other game with PvP. Ark for example heavily depends on your rig capabilities/performance to be able to properly pvp in heavy encounters. On console everyone has the same setup and are not able to out Ghz the other guy.

I could keep going, just wanted to prove you very wrong. ;p
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 12:51
16.
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 12:51
Jun 1, 2016, 12:51
 
theglaze wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 11:32:
I may consider it when they put in a ranking system for competitive play, not because I'm a hardcore fragger, but because there is a horde of Blizzard fans that only know casual gameplay and are newbs with first-person-shooter dynamics, team tactics, and teamwork via voice comm.

Maybe for consoles, but most PC players would have played some sort of team based shooter like TF2 or CS.

Also, given how matchmaking is skill based, consistently being matched with players who "only know casual gameplay and are newbs with first-person-shooter dynamics" would mean you're just as bad as they are.
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 12:58
17.
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 12:58
Jun 1, 2016, 12:58
 
Yifes wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 11:17:

Well, that is why they're splitting PVP and PVE balancing in Legion.


It's definitely a HUGE step in the right direction and one which should have been introduced back in TBC when they released Arena but I'm still very skeptical that they'll bring all specs to 5 - 10% from top to bottom with those extra layers of balance.

I really want them to prove me wrong because it's frustrating.
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 13:02
18.
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 13:02
Jun 1, 2016, 13:02
 
justice7 wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 12:49:
The same goes for any other game with PvP. Ark for example heavily depends on your rig capabilities/performance to be able to properly pvp in heavy encounters. On console everyone has the same setup and are not able to out Ghz the other guy.

I could keep going, just wanted to prove you very wrong. ;p

That's not true at all. Overwatch runs great on older systems, and my 7870 is holding up just fine on medium. And given every match is 6v6, there's a low limit on how heavy encounters can get. Unless your computer is ancient, you can't use your rig as an excuse of why you can't pvp properly.
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 13:06
19.
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 13:06
Jun 1, 2016, 13:06
 
Yea the problem with D.va is that her critical hit 'box' is center mass so while she is supposed to be a tank, she is incredibly easy to burn down by just hitting her there. I've done this with a single clip on Soldier76, an admittedly 'middling' damage dealer. Double this with the fact that her guns do basically no damage beyond a range of ~10 yards and it means she gets creamed in larger maps constantly.
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Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed
Jun 1, 2016, 13:31
20.
Re: Competitive Overwatch Delayed; Balance Changes Discussed Jun 1, 2016, 13:31
Jun 1, 2016, 13:31
 
Jagacademy wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 12:37:
theglaze wrote on Jun 1, 2016, 11:42:
Also, I also played this on a PS4 with 5.1 surround sound on a big screen TV...it was a fantastic experience with beautiful and smooth graphics, amazing sound, and the gameplay works great with a gamepad

I can do the same speakers on a PC, using the same TV as a monitor, with even better graphics, more gameplay options, and aim significantly better with a mouse than the most elite console players. If you're trying to argue the merits of a console vs PC, you will lose everytime.

I was just sharing the console experience because most people here are PC users. Calm down.
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