Jerykk wrote on May 24, 2016, 01:54:

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 12:43:
Here's an example of something that happens all the time in the new doom. You see an imp, a low health cannon fodder enemy, and you shoot him with a direct hit. Instead of dying and being thrown across the room in a satisfying fashion, it just stays there, barely reacting to your shot and enters a "stunned" state, which is basically death. Eventually it'll come out of stunned state, but it takes a long time for most enemies. Now you have to either go up to that imp and melee him, or you have to shoot him again and waste ammo. In both instances you waste time and it's less satisfying. Also, the imp is flashing like an asshole and it looks like a Disney arcade game and that takes you out of the immersion and it annoys your brain into thinking more about that monster than you should. You can't just continue killing, you have to go take care of that annoying thing.

It's just my opinion, but I feel that people who prefer the glory kill thing either haven't played better or don't have enough experience with games to imagine better. Maybe I just have different tastes...

I've been playing shooters (and games in general) since Wolf 3D and I beat the new DOOM on Nightmare difficulty. I also know that only certain weapons will stun imps. Namely, the weapons have lower damage per projectile, like the basic shotgun (primary fire, not the secondary grenade which usually one-shots imps on direct hits), plasma gun, assault rifle and chaingun. I was regularly one-shotting imps with the super shotgun, gauss rifle and rocket launcher.

I'm guessing you haven't been using a lot of the weapons or secondary firing modes. Also, the hand grenade is a great way to finish off groups of enemies. Finally, on Nightmare difficulty, seeing a glory kill opportunity is never "annoying." It's a relief because you die in 1-3 hits and need all the health you can get.

I tried Ultra Nightmare last night. Ha!

First battle, first time, I ran smiling at two possessed soldiers. I saw they were next to a barrel, so I turned and fired on it. And immediately turned to chunks myself. Turns out I was too close to the barrel - on HMP I saw them flying across the battlefield often but rarely used them so didn't fully know their blast radius.

So, first fight, second time. Same two guys. This time I looked at the barrel and did a Bruce-Campbell-shaking-finger-at-the-Neconomicon. You.. I know you. So I didn't fire on it. Instead, an imp ball hit it and I was down to 30 health. Whatever, I still ran around, killed almost everyone, went to the last two possessed soldiers and put one into Glory Kill mode. As I went in to deliver it, I saw the second was charging a shot. This could be bad, I thought. Instead of moving following the glory kill, I turned and looked. Fatal mistake - caught the shot right between the eyes. Last guy.

Oops.

In any case, I think I could manage Ultra Nightmare fine with a few exceptions. Some of the trials I think would be awful. Some of the arenas later on I think would be awful. And the final boss I do not think I could beat, under any circumstances, on Ultra Nightmare. Thinking about it, and even thinking about some later fights, doesn't sound fun, just sounds tiring. I was fine on Hurt Me Plenty, where if I blinked an imp disintegrated, and where Hell Barons were just an exercise in leading them around an arena, picking off other demons until I had time to turn and blast them to pieces.

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 12:43:
Here's an example of something that happens all the time in the new doom. You see an imp, a low health cannon fodder enemy, and you shoot him with a direct hit. Instead of dying and being thrown across the room in a satisfying fashion, it just stays there, barely reacting to your shot and enters a "stunned" state, which is basically death. Eventually it'll come out of stunned state, but it takes a long time for most enemies. Now you have to either go up to that imp and melee him, or you have to shoot him again and waste ammo. In both instances you waste time and it's less satisfying. Also, the imp is flashing like an asshole and it looks like a Disney arcade game and that takes you out of the immersion and it annoys your brain into thinking more about that monster than you should. You can't just continue killing, you have to go take care of that annoying thing.

It's just my opinion, but I feel that people who prefer the glory kill thing either haven't played better or don't have enough experience with games to imagine better. Maybe I just have different tastes...

I've been playing shooters (and games in general) since Wolf 3D and I beat the new DOOM on Nightmare difficulty. I also know that only certain weapons will stun imps. Namely, the weapons have lower damage per projectile, like the basic shotgun (primary fire, not the secondary grenade which usually one-shots imps on direct hits), plasma gun, assault rifle and chaingun. I was regularly one-shotting imps with the super shotgun, gauss rifle and rocket launcher.

I'm guessing you haven't been using a lot of the weapons or secondary firing modes. Also, the hand grenade is a great way to finish off groups of enemies. Finally, on Nightmare difficulty, seeing a glory kill opportunity is never "annoying." It's a relief because you die in 1-3 hits and need all the health you can get.

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 14:38:

Drayth wrote on May 23, 2016, 14:06:
Well yeah, it adds to the challenge, that's kinda the point...? Personally I like the added risk of trying to determine if it's a good opportunity to go in for the kill.. AND sometimes failing. You seem to want some perfect system that can't meet your expectations.

I want a perfect system, yes, and I pointed out what I didn't like and how it should be instead...

And yes Beamer, I sometimes sound condescending, but I don't mean what I say as an insult. I genuinely think that most people don't question themselves about games and accept lesser things. I have strong researched opinions(that are sometimes wrong) and that makes me sound like an a-hole sometimes.

On Blues, though, we mostly all do. Not only are we crusty old vets, but a lot of us play far less than we used to, and therefore we're much more picky about what we play.

That said, I no longer have tolerance for any significant learning curve. I play so little that I want that time to be spent playing, not learning.

Beamer wrote on May 23, 2016, 14:35:


It took me ~12 hours on Hurt Me Plenty, though with searching for secrets. Towards the end I actually just went to YouTube videos for some, as searching was no longer fun (and I missed one or two due to not being able to backtrack and was annoyed.)

Towards the end I became less a challenge completionist, too.

Keep in mind the guy in the vid's one of the more well known speed runners of older Doom games.

Drayth wrote on May 23, 2016, 14:06:
Well yeah, it adds to the challenge, that's kinda the point...? Personally I like the added risk of trying to determine if it's a good opportunity to go in for the kill.. AND sometimes failing. You seem to want some perfect system that can't meet your expectations.

I want a perfect system, yes, and I pointed out what I didn't like and how it should be instead...

And yes Beamer, I sometimes sound condescending, but I don't mean what I say as an insult. I genuinely think that most people don't question themselves about games and accept lesser things. I have strong researched opinions(that are sometimes wrong) and that makes me sound like an a-hole sometimes.

Drayth wrote on May 23, 2016, 14:09:
Ultra Nightmare (ironman mode) completed in a little over 4 hours.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6J352J_RG8

He bound each weapon to a key orbiting the WASD keys... think I may try that. Only watched the beginning parts.

It took me ~12 hours on Hurt Me Plenty, though with searching for secrets. Towards the end I actually just went to YouTube videos for some, as searching was no longer fun (and I missed one or two due to not being able to backtrack and was annoyed.)

Towards the end I became less a challenge completionist, too.

Ultra Nightmare (ironman mode) completed in a little over 4 hours.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6J352J_RG8

He bound each weapon to a key orbiting the WASD keys... think I may try that. Only watched the beginning parts.

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 12:53:
Yeah, I turned it off, it helps, but sometimes it's hard to know if you can do the glory kill or not and you take damage you shouldn't have taken.

Well yeah, it adds to the challenge, that's kinda the point...? Personally I like the added risk of trying to determine if it's a good opportunity to go in for the kill.. AND sometimes failing. You seem to want some perfect system that can't meet your expectations.

Edit - Pretty much agree with all of what Beamer said. I'm completely aware of how good Brutal Doom is, but I'm enjoying this new Doom immensely. It seems to capture what I used to like about id - solid shooters, and graphics that have me wanting to see what's up ahead, and unlike Brutal Doom it's all new material to enjoy.

Walking in to the foundry level with a high-contrast VA panel monitor made my eyes rather happy. The graphics aren't completely ahead of the pack like they used to be with id, but it's got a good "atmosphere"'ness to it.

Hell Ant *almost* wants to play it.. that's like a 5 1/2 out 5 stars.

This comment was edited on May 23, 2016, 14:24.

I'm playing Doom on Ultra violence with all help off, including crosshairs and it's a definite challenge. It's way tough!

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 12:43:
It's just my opinion, but I feel that people who prefer the glory kill thing either haven't played better or don't have enough experience with games to imagine better.

Oh, I'm sure...

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 13:27:

Beamer wrote on May 23, 2016, 13:17:

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 12:43:

It's just my opinion, but I feel that people who prefer the glory kill thing either haven't played better or don't have enough experience with games to imagine better. Maybe I just have different tastes...

And yet, weirdly, all you can do is keep going back to Brutal Doom, a modification on a game 23 years old.

So, this is your "better?" A 23 year old game heavily modded? You realize how condescending what you said is, particularly when you say it here, a board where nearly all posters are over 30 and have been gaming before Doom, with very large Steam libraries.

It isn't like you're naming a ton of games that you think are better, just a 23 year old one. Which you can still play all you want.

What I see is a board with a majority of people that think that the new Doom is the best thing ever. I try to get people to wake up. I call it how it is. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

Brutal Doom's gameplay it completely modern despite the graphics not being so. Also old Doom's level design is way ahead of today's design. Sure it doesn't look like reality, but it has a lot of substance. The new Doom's level design is actually really similar, so I never complained about that. This is one more proof that parts of today's games are actually worse than some 23 year old games. Total Biscuit agrees with me and actually made a whole video just about that.

You're doing yourself a disfavor if you trivialize what was accomplished with brutal doom. Do you really want me to list all the games with better combat? I got other things to do All I say is just my opinion, if you disagree, fine. I will name the game Blood though, because it's my favorite of all time. I think brutal doom's combat was heavily influenced by it. There's no shooter out there where the combat is as satisfying as in Blood.

I'm not trying to trivialize Brutal Doom, I'm saying your "I've just played more games, or I am more imaginative, than people that like this game, and they need to wake up" was condescending as hell. You know it was condescending. "I like this game because I know better and/or more than you."

No. Some people like this game. They don't need to wake up. It's possible to enjoy both this and Brutal Doom in different ways.

Also, who cares what Total Biscuit thinks? Sometimes he's smart, sometimes he's insightful, sometimes he's wrong, sometimes he's an idiot.

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 13:29:

Beamer wrote on May 23, 2016, 13:20:
Maybe you should have kicked your difficulty level down. Maybe that would have given you the easier enemies-get-blasted-apart experience you wanted.

I played the game at hard, or whatever the difficulty just before nightmare is called, and it's pretty easy. I did die, a couple of times, but I generally completely dominate. This is the amount of difficulty/success/failure that I enjoy. The problem isn't with the difficulty, it's with how satisfying the combat is.

Yes, and I'm saying that, if your complaint is "the enemies absorb too much damage," maybe reducing the difficulty will solve that. You said you only died a couple of times, so you're not being challenged the way you'd like.

Reduce the difficulty. You'll mow enemies down, and still only die a couple of times. But now enemies will be blown away faster.

I played on Hurt Me Plenty, for the most part, and I was a demon destroying god. They basically died for looking at me. It was a blast.

Beamer wrote on May 23, 2016, 13:20:
Maybe you should have kicked your difficulty level down. Maybe that would have given you the easier enemies-get-blasted-apart experience you wanted.

I played the game at hard, or whatever the difficulty just before nightmare is called, and it's pretty easy. I did die, a couple of times, but I generally completely dominate. This is the amount of difficulty/success/failure that I enjoy. The problem isn't with the difficulty, it's with how satisfying the combat is.

Beamer wrote on May 23, 2016, 13:17:

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 12:43:

It's just my opinion, but I feel that people who prefer the glory kill thing either haven't played better or don't have enough experience with games to imagine better. Maybe I just have different tastes...

And yet, weirdly, all you can do is keep going back to Brutal Doom, a modification on a game 23 years old.

So, this is your "better?" A 23 year old game heavily modded? You realize how condescending what you said is, particularly when you say it here, a board where nearly all posters are over 30 and have been gaming before Doom, with very large Steam libraries.

It isn't like you're naming a ton of games that you think are better, just a 23 year old one. Which you can still play all you want.

What I see is a board with a majority of people that think that the new Doom is the best thing ever. I try to get people to wake up. I call it how it is. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

Brutal Doom's gameplay it completely modern despite the graphics not being so. Also old Doom's level design is way ahead of today's design. Sure it doesn't look like reality, but it has a lot of substance. The new Doom's level design is actually really similar, so I never complained about that. This is one more proof that parts of today's games are actually worse than some 23 year old games. Total Biscuit agrees with me and actually made a whole video just about that.

You're doing yourself a disfavor if you trivialize what was accomplished with brutal doom. Do you really want me to list all the games with better combat? I got other things to do All I say is just my opinion, if you disagree, fine. I will name the game Blood though, because it's my favorite of all time. I think brutal doom's combat was heavily influenced by it. There's no shooter out there where the combat is as satisfying as in Blood.

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 12:53:

Drayth wrote on May 23, 2016, 12:51:
You can turn off the flashing, that's the first thing I did.

You *can* one-shot enemies. In fact there's times where you have to switch away from the shotgun if you want to get health off an easy enemy. Maybe there's a little more health added to enemies for purposes of the glory kills? It hasn't really come to mind as an issue personally till thinking about it just now.

Yeah, I turned it off, it helps, but sometimes it's hard to know if you can do the glory kill or not and you take damage you shouldn't have taken.

Yes, a lot of times you can one shot enemies, but a lot of times it doesn't work. I dare say most of the time they don't die. Seems to me like they balanced their health in such a way that they go into stunned state most of the time.

I disagree. To condescend as you did, maybe you're just bad at the game?

I routinely found myself switching weapons or shooting legs to make sure I didn't kill enemies before they went into the glory kill mode. If I used the chaingun, the rocket launcher, the super shotgun, or anything with plasma, they regularly died before I could use them to stock up on items. Hell, there's even a rune that gives them more health when they go into glory kill mode to help prevent that.

For imps, which you say should go flying across the room, I almost always aimed to the side of them. I used the super shotgun more or less 100% of the time if I had the ammo, and a direct shot with it, to an imp, from any nearish distance would send them flying. I had to make sure the shot wasn't directly on.

Maybe you should have kicked your difficulty level down. Maybe that would have given you the easier enemies-get-blasted-apart experience you wanted.

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 12:43:

It's just my opinion, but I feel that people who prefer the glory kill thing either haven't played better or don't have enough experience with games to imagine better. Maybe I just have different tastes...

And yet, weirdly, all you can do is keep going back to Brutal Doom, a modification on a game 23 years old.

So, this is your "better?" A 23 year old game heavily modded? You realize how condescending what you said is, particularly when you say it here, a board where nearly all posters are over 30 and have been gaming before Doom, with very large Steam libraries.

It isn't like you're naming a ton of games that you think are better, just a 23 year old one. Which you can still play all you want.

Drayth wrote on May 23, 2016, 12:51:
You can turn off the flashing, that's the first thing I did.

You *can* one-shot enemies. In fact there's times where you have to switch away from the shotgun if you want to get health off an easy enemy. Maybe there's a little more health added to enemies for purposes of the glory kills? It hasn't really come to mind as an issue personally till thinking about it just now.

Yeah, I turned it off, it helps, but sometimes it's hard to know if you can do the glory kill or not and you take damage you shouldn't have taken.

Yes, a lot of times you can one shot enemies, but a lot of times it doesn't work. I dare say most of the time they don't die. Seems to me like they balanced their health in such a way that they go into stunned state most of the time.

You can turn off the flashing, that's the first thing I did.

You *can* one-shot enemies. In fact there's times where you have to switch away from the shotgun if you want to get health off an easy enemy. Maybe there's a little more health added to enemies for purposes of the glory kills? It hasn't really come to mind as an issue personally till thinking about it just now.

Jerykk wrote on May 23, 2016, 12:30:

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 11:32:
I strongly disagree with people that think glory kills are a good thing. Just go play Brutal Doom. The combat is faster and flows much better. The glory kills turn enemies into bullet sponges and you constantly have to walk over to them to melee them. Sure, you can also spend like one or two extra shots of wasted ammo if you don't want to go run up to them, but for me that's unacceptable. I just want to shoot an enemy and have it die and be throw around the room... I can't have that anymore most of the time. Also, you can't turn them off. You can only turn off the animation, which is what I did. It does improve it a little, but only visually.

Also, the max amount of enemies at a time might not be 6, but it's definitely very small. It always feels like you're fighting a handful of demons and once you kill one, another one respawns. Maybe you guys don't have the eye for it? It's just like Borderlands, and it breaks the immersion for me. Original Doom can have at least 10 times the amount of enemies on screen and some levels do.

If your guns could one-shot every enemy, it would be too easy. The point of giving enemies a lot of health is to force you to keep moving and switch up your weapons. You should be maximizing your DPS by constantly switching weapons. Conserving ammo should not be a consideration, which is why glory kills give you ammo.

I never said I wanted to one shot everything. I disagree with your assumption that you shouldn't think about conserving ammo. Brutal Doom isn't easy and its combat is more similar to the classic Dooms. It forces you to switch weapons, keep moving and be careful with ammo. That's what I want from a Doom game, because it's more satisfying and fun. What they did in the new Doom isn't terrible, but it's just not as good as it could be. I'm using Brutal Doom as an example, but there are lots of other games with more satisfying combat that doesn't have glory kills.

Here's an example of something that happens all the time in the new doom. You see an imp, a low health cannon fodder enemy, and you shoot him with a direct hit. Instead of dying and being thrown across the room in a satisfying fashion, it just stays there, barely reacting to your shot and enters a "stunned" state, which is basically death. Eventually it'll come out of stunned state, but it takes a long time for most enemies. Now you have to either go up to that imp and melee him, or you have to shoot him again and waste ammo. In both instances you waste time and it's less satisfying. Also, the imp is flashing like an asshole and it looks like a Disney arcade game and that takes you out of the immersion and it annoys your brain into thinking more about that monster than you should. You can't just continue killing, you have to go take care of that annoying thing.

It's just my opinion, but I feel that people who prefer the glory kill thing either haven't played better or don't have enough experience with games to imagine better. Maybe I just have different tastes...

ItBurn wrote on May 23, 2016, 11:32:
I strongly disagree with people that think glory kills are a good thing. Just go play Brutal Doom. The combat is faster and flows much better. The glory kills turn enemies into bullet sponges and you constantly have to walk over to them to melee them. Sure, you can also spend like one or two extra shots of wasted ammo if you don't want to go run up to them, but for me that's unacceptable. I just want to shoot an enemy and have it die and be throw around the room... I can't have that anymore most of the time. Also, you can't turn them off. You can only turn off the animation, which is what I did. It does improve it a little, but only visually.

Also, the max amount of enemies at a time might not be 6, but it's definitely very small. It always feels like you're fighting a handful of demons and once you kill one, another one respawns. Maybe you guys don't have the eye for it? It's just like Borderlands, and it breaks the immersion for me. Original Doom can have at least 10 times the amount of enemies on screen and some levels do.

If your guns could one-shot every enemy, it would be too easy. The point of giving enemies a lot of health is to force you to keep moving and switch up your weapons. You should be maximizing your DPS by constantly switching weapons. Conserving ammo should not be a consideration, which is why glory kills give you ammo.