https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/1998/11/25/john-romero-artiste

Doombringer wrote on Apr 26, 2016, 09:03:
I have to set the record straight here, because Romero gets crap he doesn't deserve, but if you did some research you'd know. Quake's development cycle went way off the rails, and it wasn't because of Romero's design doc. Yeah, he had plans for it... they weren't any more or less crazy than what they came up with for Doom. The id guys cribbed ideas left and right from Dungeons & Dragons, which they played. So an axe or hammer-wielding warrior with fantasy elements wasn't that strange a concept for Quake.

Quake's engine took too long to sort out, and they had to rush the "creative" side of it toward the end of development. Any truly interesting ideas were stripped out and what we got was more of a tech demo than an actual game... I mean really, who remembers Quake for any of its design i.e. enemies or weapons, like we remember Doom or Duke 3D?

And Daikatana... the game had some great ideas, but execution was flawed. They aimed too high with too green a team at ION Storm. It definitely could have and should have been handled better.

Oh fucking horseshit. John Romero was only ever a fucking level designer for ID. He has no actual game design chops or experience, he's just a fucking level designer who started to believe his own fucking bullshit.

ID is hosed without John Carmack - the success of their games rested entirely on the tech he built them, because sure as shit they've basically been making the same fucking game for 20 years and the upcoming Doom reboot shows they haven't learned a goddamned thing about game design during that time.

Romero is a fucking dreamer who has zero clues about game design. He just wants to remake fucking deathmatch over and over and over again like the rest of ID. The difference is, the rest of ID actually has a modicum of talent, whereas Romero is fucking useless.

Tachikoma wrote on Apr 26, 2016, 16:49:
Release date: Winter 2018. ROTFL. Remind me about it when it`s finally released in Winter 2019.

And Dokken was "metal" only if you put "soft" in front of it. Same league as GnR really But then Romero was always a poseur.

What? Whatever else Dokken might be, they're a bonafide metal band, in the vein of Priest or Maiden. Yeah, they've had their poppier hits like Dream Warriors or Breaking the Chains, but even Metallica had a "pop" phase with songs like Enter Sandman. While not nearly as hardcore as bands like Metallica or Megadeath, they're not pop metal the way Def Lep or Poison are. Go listen to Mr. Scary or Paris is Burning and tell me they're not metal.

Musically they adhere to most of the metal standards: power chords, driving bass and bass drum, wank solos, liberal use of minor seventh chords, and standard metal harmonies. GnR is a blues-based hard rock band, and musically completely different. Not really comparable, IMO.

One last thing I'd like to point out is that it's not like using an 80s metal guitarist is out of the blue for Romero's projects. Doom's soundtrack musically is heavy metal, even if done with the poor sound of the time. And let's not forget who did Quake's soundtrack: Trent Reznor.

This comment was edited on Apr 27, 2016, 14:25.

Necrophob wrote on Apr 26, 2016, 09:14:

Doombringer wrote on Apr 26, 2016, 09:03:

ForgedReality wrote on Apr 25, 2016, 20:53:
Remember back when Quake was first announced, and it was supposed to be all about this dude with an axe in like medieval times or whatever, and you were supposed to be able to hit things with your axe and you could chop wood and lop off limbs and stuff and if you fell, you'd tumble realistically and stuff... All this crazy Romerohype that basically never saw the light of day. It was to be this crazy realistic shit, and look at what we got instead. XD Romero is full of shit.

I have to set the record straight here, because Romero gets crap he doesn't deserve, but if you did some research you'd know. Quake's development cycle went way off the rails, and it wasn't because of Romero's design doc. Yeah, he had plans for it... they weren't any more or less crazy than what they came up with for Doom. The id guys cribbed ideas left and right from Dungeons & Dragons, which they played. So an axe or hammer-wielding warrior with fantasy elements wasn't that strange a concept for Quake.

Quake's engine took too long to sort out, and they had to rush the "creative" side of it toward the end of development. Any truly interesting ideas were stripped out and what we got was more of a tech demo than an actual game... I mean really, who remembers Quake for any of its design i.e. enemies or weapons, like we remember Doom or Duke 3D?

And Daikatana... the game had some great ideas, but execution was flawed. They aimed too high with too green a team at ION Storm. It definitely could have and should have been handled better.

Yah, from Masters of Doom (really good read), they talk about the trouble during Quake's development. A lot of it was the fact that they never really had an engine to develop for until the end, and they were stuck churning out assets that ultimately had to be scrapped. However, Romero was also in the middle of his "rockstar" phase, so he takes some of the blame. It's not like it mattered in the end though, since everyone was so awed by the Quake engine they didn't care about the schizo game design.

Speaking of schizo design, it seems to be what Romero loves the best. I wish he'd nail down a style and stick with it all the way through a game, rather than coming up with these scenarios so he can design anything he wants and glue it together into a game.

While it's true that Romero was an immovable object in the design, which got him kicked out, his argument was that they shouldn't stray from his design doc and throw so much out. So the shoddy, incoherent design was against his wishes. Carmack was the one saying it didn't matter as much and they should just throw together good levels. Romero wanted something coherent.

I mean, for what it's worth, I played a good amount of Quake (though, frankly, probably much more either online with a 700+ ping, or simply against bots) and don't even remember different themed "zones." Everything felt like the same mish-mosh to me.

Release date: Winter 2018. ROTFL. Remind me about it when it`s finally released in Winter 2019.

And Dokken was "metal" only if you put "soft" in front of it. Same league as GnR really But then Romero was always a poseur.

Kxmode wrote on Apr 25, 2016, 19:02:

BLACKROOM is metal. It features a new soundtrack and compositions by acclaimed metal guitarist George Lynch, frequently cited as one of the best metal guitarists in the world.

I'm pretty sure Slash from Guns N' Roses is one of the best metal guitarists in the world. His solo part in November Rain is crazy!

slash is known as a "rock" guitarist... not "metal"

its pretty clear cut, btw... so dont act like a midwest housewife

I love the schizo design of Quake. The history of its development is very interesting and it sucks so many ideas were scrapped. It would be cool if they'd somehow dug out old assets and released them, just for educational and historical values. John did release some stuff he found, like original .map sources, some hand drawn level design, a scrapped part of a map... I think he has more but not enough people demand it

Doombringer wrote on Apr 26, 2016, 09:03:
(...)I mean really, who remembers Quake for any of its design i.e. enemies or weapons, like we remember Doom or Duke 3D?

I do I love the monster design, I love the level design, the textures, the sounds... pretty much everything. Hell, I even like the simplistic weapon design. It was also probably the last game with true centered weapons - not covering a significant part of the side of the screen and allowing gameplay without the need for the crosshair (and with any aim assist disabled also). Anyone who used a firearm of any kind in real life knows that you position your body in such a way you always keep the weapon at the center of your eyesight. Maybe not when you're running, but that's too much realism for a shooter like this

I wonder if this project would be funded and start with full production... what are the designers opinions about centered weapon models.

This comment was edited on Apr 26, 2016, 11:24.

Nope.

Doombringer wrote on Apr 26, 2016, 09:03:

ForgedReality wrote on Apr 25, 2016, 20:53:
Remember back when Quake was first announced, and it was supposed to be all about this dude with an axe in like medieval times or whatever, and you were supposed to be able to hit things with your axe and you could chop wood and lop off limbs and stuff and if you fell, you'd tumble realistically and stuff... All this crazy Romerohype that basically never saw the light of day. It was to be this crazy realistic shit, and look at what we got instead. XD Romero is full of shit.

I have to set the record straight here, because Romero gets crap he doesn't deserve, but if you did some research you'd know. Quake's development cycle went way off the rails, and it wasn't because of Romero's design doc. Yeah, he had plans for it... they weren't any more or less crazy than what they came up with for Doom. The id guys cribbed ideas left and right from Dungeons & Dragons, which they played. So an axe or hammer-wielding warrior with fantasy elements wasn't that strange a concept for Quake.

Quake's engine took too long to sort out, and they had to rush the "creative" side of it toward the end of development. Any truly interesting ideas were stripped out and what we got was more of a tech demo than an actual game... I mean really, who remembers Quake for any of its design i.e. enemies or weapons, like we remember Doom or Duke 3D?

And Daikatana... the game had some great ideas, but execution was flawed. They aimed too high with too green a team at ION Storm. It definitely could have and should have been handled better.

Yah, from Masters of Doom (really good read), they talk about the trouble during Quake's development. A lot of it was the fact that they never really had an engine to develop for until the end, and they were stuck churning out assets that ultimately had to be scrapped. However, Romero was also in the middle of his "rockstar" phase, so he takes some of the blame. It's not like it mattered in the end though, since everyone was so awed by the Quake engine they didn't care about the schizo game design.

Speaking of schizo design, it seems to be what Romero loves the best. I wish he'd nail down a style and stick with it all the way through a game, rather than coming up with these scenarios so he can design anything he wants and glue it together into a game.

ForgedReality wrote on Apr 25, 2016, 20:53:
Remember back when Quake was first announced, and it was supposed to be all about this dude with an axe in like medieval times or whatever, and you were supposed to be able to hit things with your axe and you could chop wood and lop off limbs and stuff and if you fell, you'd tumble realistically and stuff... All this crazy Romerohype that basically never saw the light of day. It was to be this crazy realistic shit, and look at what we got instead. XD Romero is full of shit.

I have to set the record straight here, because Romero gets crap he doesn't deserve, but if you did some research you'd know. Quake's development cycle went way off the rails, and it wasn't because of Romero's design doc. Yeah, he had plans for it... they weren't any more or less crazy than what they came up with for Doom. The id guys cribbed ideas left and right from Dungeons & Dragons, which they played. So an axe or hammer-wielding warrior with fantasy elements wasn't that strange a concept for Quake.

Quake's engine took too long to sort out, and they had to rush the "creative" side of it toward the end of development. Any truly interesting ideas were stripped out and what we got was more of a tech demo than an actual game... I mean really, who remembers Quake for any of its design i.e. enemies or weapons, like we remember Doom or Duke 3D?

And Daikatana... the game had some great ideas, but execution was flawed. They aimed too high with too green a team at ION Storm. It definitely could have and should have been handled better.

I don't know why the hate towards Romero. I know Daikatana and all that but c'mon guys. Everyone makes mistakes
I would contribute to this kickstarter but I wish they would have some sort of concept gameplay or something to show not just talk about it. Winter 2018 is pretty far off though. I'll keep an eye on this project.

By the way Blue they are asking for 700k not 750k.

I would contribute to this kickstarter, but I don't want to be John Romero's bitch.

Sorry had to be said.

jdreyer wrote on Apr 26, 2016, 04:14:
John Romero wants to make you his pitch!

They should have gone with that, just get the elephant out of the room asap.

Overon wrote on Apr 25, 2016, 17:44:
I'm still waiting for John Romero to make him his bitch. Saying this is obligatory whenever John Romero is mentioned.

John Romero wants to make you his pitch!

rudra wrote on Apr 25, 2016, 17:26:

BLACKROOM is metal. It features a new soundtrack and compositions by acclaimed metal guitarist George Lynch, frequently cited as one of the best metal guitarists in the world.

Yeah, he was okay with Dokken like 30 years ago. It's a bit ridiculous to say "best in the world." Even back then I'd put a whole slew of other metal guitarists ahead of his rather run-of-the-mill metal. Just off the top of my head:
- EVH (Duh)
- Randy Rhoads (Crazy Train, AYFKM?)
- Maiden's Adrian Smith (not to mention Dave Murray)
- Joe Satriani
- Priest's Glenn Tipton
- Scorpion's Michael Schenker
- Steve Vai (Even though I wasn't a fan, there's no denying his immense talent)
- Dave Mustaine
- Kirk Hammett (Not a huge Metallica fan, but no denying their talent and influence)

Still, Mr. Scary has some sweet licks.

We need to see some exploding barrels. Also, fuck Guns N' Roses. They are the most overrated band ever. Not saying they are bad, just saying they are nowhere near as good as everyone is making them out to be and Axl Rose is a giant fat douche-bag. (He always used to be one, just with less fat).

Placid wrote on Apr 25, 2016, 19:08:
I bet it gets cancelled in about 14 months days.

Fixed.

They need to show of some concept without just talking unfortunately. As much as I believe John/Adrian combo is lethal there is that Daikatana factor in the back of my mind.

I have hope.

Please, please, please...

I think I might be the lone John Romero fanboy here. I am actually a pretty big fan of both him and his wife, and some of that has to do with their work in the video game industry and some of that has to do with some stuff related to their work at the University of California at Santa Cruz. I have always liked Adrian's work as well. I also don't mind that they want to go the Kickstarter route, which apparently also puts me in the minority here. If I were them, at this stage of their careers, I wouldn't want to be under a publisher's thumb either.

I was wondering if a project was coming when John and Brenda started selling a bunch of their stuff and moved to Europe's equivalent of Silicon Valley, Ireland. Game looks fun, it looks well thought out, and I haven't done a new Kickstarter for a while so I have some play money to lose...I am in. Hopefully I will be happily playing Blackroom in 2018 and not coming back at the end of May to post that my first failed Kickstarter has occurred.

This comment was edited on Apr 26, 2016, 01:33.