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Op Ed

GamesBeat - Game developers must avoid the 'wage-slave' attitude - by Alex St. John.
"Anybody good enough to get hired to write games can get paid more to work on something else. If working on a game for 80 hours a week for months at a time seems 'strenuous' to you Ö practice more until youíre better at it. Making games is not a job, pushing a mouse is not a hardship, itís the most amazing opportunity you can possibly get paid to pursue Ö start believing it, and youíll discover that you are even better at it."

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45. Re: Op Ed Apr 19, 2016, 11:30 Tachikoma
 
HorrorScope wrote on Apr 18, 2016, 13:10:
That said, I would never do what you do... you basically did two wrongs. 1. We're controlled by what others say and reacted in the opposite because of #2. Out of spite. Don't let others push you around, just take it as an opinion for which it is, there is no total agreement in things like games.

Well, let`s not get carried away with this "being pushed around" - think you misunderstood my "spite" angle, which admittedly was a bit theatrical. Forum posts are a limited medium, and there are many reasons for my being skeptical about indie love-in, apart from snobby attitudes - however this is probably outside of the scope of this thread.

It`s not a black and white issue, as per usual, and so neither the OP nor those screaming against got it covered. It`s quite interesting thou so shame this is a fast moving board and now wehave to go and comment on another Doom Citizen thread
 
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44. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2016, 20:50 Stormsinger
 
Cutter wrote on Apr 18, 2016, 14:40:
yonder wrote on Apr 17, 2016, 18:35:
Yeah but PLENTY of people work for 50 years saying "I wish I had done a bit better in preparing for the future when I was younger."

The only people who ever say that are the people who never lived within their means. You can strike that balance without working like a dog your entire life, you know. Stop trying to keep up with the neighbors. Stop having kids you can't afford to have. Working like a pig for 40 years and never enjoying life only to drop dead at retirement is just stupid.

Stop getting sick, stop letting tornados wreck your house. There are -plenty- of things completely outside of your control that could make someone say "I wish I'd saved more." Maybe if you'd actually -think- before you whip out your tired cliches, you'd make better points, or at least be a bit more entertaining.
 
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43. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2016, 15:16 Suppa7
 
HorrorScope wrote on Apr 18, 2016, 13:10:
This whole board can hate... ports, AAA's, Indies, VR, 3D TV, whatever. That won't change my mind unless they really were able to point out something that I'm missing that is really tangible as to why I should not like something.

No one should want too much group think in gaming, often times negative reviews are the most insightful. If people have nothing to complain about ever then its highly likely that those people are not very bright and will buy shit in a box.

Without criticism games cannot advance, period. More often then not noticing things missing a game got wrong is much more important then what a game got right.
 
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42. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2016, 14:40 Cutter
 
yonder wrote on Apr 17, 2016, 18:35:
Yeah but PLENTY of people work for 50 years saying "I wish I had done a bit better in preparing for the future when I was younger."

The only people who ever say that are the people who never lived within their means. You can strike that balance without working like a dog your entire life, you know. Stop trying to keep up with the neighbors. Stop having kids you can't afford to have. Working like a pig for 40 years and never enjoying life only to drop dead at retirement is just stupid.
 
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41. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2016, 13:10 HorrorScope
 
Tachikoma wrote on Apr 18, 2016, 09:53:
shihonage wrote on Apr 18, 2016, 05:01:
making games at a company like EA, Origin, Ubisoft, etc., is just making SOFTWARE. It's not a passionate, creative task.
[...]
Big giant AAA games are all garbage anyway.

Wow, the angst is real. This kind of insufferable attitude is what kept me off the (new wave) indie games for years, just out of spite.

In general I thought his points were well made other than as you point out, this was very over stated about AAA's all seemingly are bad, in fact many are very good and most can only be made with an army due to scale. To me it totally has its place, like indies do as well, very healthy state right now other than over-saturation.

That said, I would never do what you do... you basically did two wrongs. 1. We're controlled by what others say and reacted in the opposite because of #2. Out of spite. Don't let others push you around, just take it as an opinion for which it is, there is no total agreement in things like games.

This whole board can hate... ports, AAA's, Indies, VR, 3D TV, whatever. That won't change my mind unless they really were able to point out something that I'm missing that is really tangible as to why I should not like something. It happens from time to time, but usually some other category than what I've stated. There are way too many games now that I don't even need to sweat a particular games bad decision in terms of design or marketing. I can just totally move on and miss nothing, rarely is it worth the time anymore.

Like if Doom sucks, so what? First I probably have 25 other PvP games or SP romps to play, some still with "Install" next to their name that I haven't even played yet. There is another 1/2 dozen in the works releasing soon. Doom isn't even Doom anymore in terms of who's doing it, it is a marketing name game, there's something not to fall for.
 
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40. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2016, 12:53 Tachikoma
 
Rilcon wrote on Apr 18, 2016, 10:43:
Speaking of heads up backsides...
Lets. However, that would require you making some actual counterpoints or building an argument...think you could manage that?
 
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39. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2016, 10:43 Rilcon
 
Speaking of heads up backsides...  
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38. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2016, 09:53 Tachikoma
 
shihonage wrote on Apr 18, 2016, 05:01:
making games at a company like EA, Origin, Ubisoft, etc., is just making SOFTWARE. It's not a passionate, creative task.
[...]
Big giant AAA games are all garbage anyway.

Wow, the angst is real. This kind of insufferable attitude is what kept me off the (new wave) indie games for years, just out of spite. Who knows, perhaps there would be more customers for your 0.99$ ASCII game if not so many of the indie devs had their heads planted firmly in their backside.

Anyway. Topic-wise, AAA game development is what it is, there always be some sort of crunch time or head-over-heels situations, no amount of "good management" will help with that. It`s simple: if you don`t like it, go work somewhere else. I heard startups are a thing these days (eyeroll.gif)

But it has nothing to do with exploitative employers: it is another issue and there are unions and courts to deal with that. But, do you have the balls to stand up and fight for yours? Not many do, hence lots of exploitation.

And meta-wise, like Suppa7 said above, you signed up for a crooked system, will go vote for either Hilaria or The Don (the same thing economically) yet here you expect miracles. The thing about the cake: you can`t have and eat it, I`m afraid.
 
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37. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2016, 07:25 Beamer
 
Spektr wrote on Apr 18, 2016, 04:09:
I tried to figure out what you're trying to say. That doesnt seem to make much sense.

Eirikrautha wrote on Apr 17, 2016, 12:19:
So, after Alex St. John attempts to restore some sanity to this argument, GamesBeat puts a rebuttal of St. John from the founder of Vambleer right underneath. Ismail is the author of quite a bit of shovelware from a two-man studio. Basically, Ismail works at exactly the sort of indie creative company that St. John says is the most "healthy" for the complainers (and experiences none of the industry issues that come from working at a large firm), and yet he wants to attack St. John for the message!

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Vambleer is at the forefront of the "I'm a victim, you're a victim" parade. So it makes sense they would be all up in the "this industry isn't fair!" whining. You're right it isn't fair! Try getting press or work and not being a part of the indie in-crowd, Rami. Oh, wait, that hits a little too close to home...

What he's saying is "Ismail once said something mean about GamerGate, so I'm going to hate everything he says, even if it's something everyone else agrees with and makes perfect sense."
 



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36. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2016, 05:01 shiho
 
I read that entire article, looking for a shred of truth, logic, common sense, etc., and found none.

I can't decide if this guy sounds like Iraqi Minister Of Information, or a slave plantation owner.

First of all, the difference between playing a game, and making it, is the difference between riding a rollercoaster, and building one.

Second, making games at a company like EA, Origin, Ubisoft, etc., is just making SOFTWARE. It's not a passionate, creative task. You're churning out a highly derivative piece of work based on proven, highly derivative technology and highly derivative design specs, and you're just one cog in a huge machine.

I guess he's right about one thing - those people should quit, and go to a regular software company, or make games on their own. Big giant AAA games are all garbage anyway. Splitting into smaller, low-budget teams would be healthier for the industry on all fronts.

But he's ignorant and plain wrong about everything else. Coding is not "moving a mouse around", it is work. Burnout is real, that's why I could not pursue my game projects properly until I quit my software job.

Coding at work and then coding at home, is bad for EVERYTHING in your life. You're killing your health, and you're killing, most of all, your very passion.

If you want to have passion for making games on your own, DO NOT work in any kind of software company. The tasks are too similar mechanically, and being a cubicle zombie sucks all that energy right out of game creation.
 
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35. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2016, 04:09 Spektr
 
I tried to figure out what you're trying to say. That doesnt seem to make much sense.

Eirikrautha wrote on Apr 17, 2016, 12:19:
So, after Alex St. John attempts to restore some sanity to this argument, GamesBeat puts a rebuttal of St. John from the founder of Vambleer right underneath. Ismail is the author of quite a bit of shovelware from a two-man studio. Basically, Ismail works at exactly the sort of indie creative company that St. John says is the most "healthy" for the complainers (and experiences none of the industry issues that come from working at a large firm), and yet he wants to attack St. John for the message!

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Vambleer is at the forefront of the "I'm a victim, you're a victim" parade. So it makes sense they would be all up in the "this industry isn't fair!" whining. You're right it isn't fair! Try getting press or work and not being a part of the indie in-crowd, Rami. Oh, wait, that hits a little too close to home...
 
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34. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2016, 02:50 Droniac
 
You guys realize that arguing the point, especially to him, isn't going to accomplish anything right? He's clearly not sane. His entire rant screams of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  
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33. Re: Op Ed Apr 18, 2016, 00:25 Rilcon
 
I can't express how much I loathe this guy.  
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32. Re: Op Ed Apr 17, 2016, 23:09 Suppa7
 
D_K_night wrote on Apr 17, 2016, 18:39:
Here we are, sitting in our prisons - oh I'm sorry, our cubicles - glancing at our smartphones, declining invitation after invitation from our friends. We're wracking our brains over yet another software defect, meanwhile our lads are out on the town chasing girls, tumbling down the mountain in a vain attempt to learn to snowboard, and just plain living life.

You guys all signed up for the idea there should be billionaires and homeless people where a small group of rich monkeys make more per year in income than the bottom 150 million people.
 
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31. Re: Op Ed Apr 17, 2016, 21:24 Jivaro
 
screw it..I just can't find enough effort to contribute to the conversation. I have art to go make while suffering....or something.

 
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30. Re: Op Ed Apr 17, 2016, 19:56 gsilver
 
I'm a dev, work 40 hour weeks (as do my peers) at a company which accepts work-life balance. I'm also paid pretty well.

I don't work on games, but that just means that I can appreciate them in my time off.
 
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29. Re: Op Ed Apr 17, 2016, 18:40 gommerstrike
 
yonder wrote on Apr 17, 2016, 18:35:
Cutter wrote on Apr 1, 2016, 10:09:
I see it as the opposite of that. More and more young people understand the importance of that balance and they work to live, not live to work. And that's as it should be. There's an old expression, no one ever died saying 'I should have spent more time at the office.' So good on them. Revel in your time and enjoy your youth while you're young because there may not be a later.

Yeah but PLENTY of people work for 50 years saying "I wish I had done a bit better in preparing for the future when I was younger."

So your story of a 20-year old, who is now 70 - says to himself "if only I put more money away. If only I worked harder and longer".

And then he dies of a stroke a day later.
 
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28. Re: Op Ed Apr 17, 2016, 18:39 gommerstrike
 
Cutter wrote on Apr 17, 2016, 18:30:
D_K_night wrote on Apr 17, 2016, 18:23:
"Work-life balance" is a concept which doesn't matter...

...until it does. In your 20's you can work those 80+ hours/week, sleep underneath your cubicle, use the shower at work(if there is one), and subsist entirely on Coke and pizza.

Then one day you hit 35. Somewhere along the way you managed to find a girlfriend, and somehow make enough time to have a wedding and marry her. Somewhere along the way, kids came into the picture.

That's the moment the concept "work-life balance" begins to matter. And that's something that young 20-something's just don't understand, when they sneer and jeer at it.

You just wait till it matters. You just wait.

I see it as the opposite of that. More and more young people understand the importance of that balance and they work to live, not live to work. And that's as it should be. There's an old expression, no one ever died saying 'I should have spent more time at the office.' So good on them. Revel in your time and enjoy your youth while you're young because there may not be a later.

There's also the whole "work hard, play hard" but the funny thing here is, how can you "play hard" when you work so hard and so long, that there's no time to play?

Here we are, sitting in our prisons - oh I'm sorry, our cubicles - glancing at our smartphones, declining invitation after invitation from our friends. We're wracking our brains over yet another software defect, meanwhile our lads are out on the town chasing girls, tumbling down the mountain in a vain attempt to learn to snowboard, and just plain living life.
 
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27. Re: Op Ed Apr 17, 2016, 18:35 yonder
 
Cutter wrote on Apr 1, 2016, 10:09:
I see it as the opposite of that. More and more young people understand the importance of that balance and they work to live, not live to work. And that's as it should be. There's an old expression, no one ever died saying 'I should have spent more time at the office.' So good on them. Revel in your time and enjoy your youth while you're young because there may not be a later.

Yeah but PLENTY of people work for 50 years saying "I wish I had done a bit better in preparing for the future when I was younger."
 
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26. Re: Op Ed Apr 17, 2016, 18:35 gommerstrike
 
Squirmer wrote on Apr 17, 2016, 18:18:
Loving games isn't enough to sustain you when you're working 80 hours a week, feeling like shit all the time, trying not to let your marriage fall apart because you never see your family for more than a few minutes a day, missing out on everything else that's happening in the world because you're stuck at a desk your whole life.

"My wife is leaving and my life is falling apart, but that's totally fine because I get to make video games for a living!!"

Fuck this guy. He tells people to quit so he can hire someone else with more "passion", but it's not passion that makes them put up with shit working conditions, it's desperation. This cunt hires people in vulnerable positions who need money so they can pay the rent, and will tolerate the shit he puts them through because they have no other option. Or he hires young kids just entering working life who will tolerate his bullshit because they don't have families, or because they don't even realize they're being mistreated and they think this is just what working life is. He's fucking scum.

The typical manager scum who has the gall to tell us peasantry and common-folk that we don't get to spend time with our newborns, don't get to witness the moments of our child's first steps, don't get to life live.

Oh no no. We must work to live, not the other way around. And we're all lying on our deathbeds, oh god do we wish we worked more and harder. But of course.
 
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