jdreyer wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 01:13:
You couldn't have given a more bullshit answer than CoD. The game engine is 7 years old, so of course it's going to run well.

You clearly never tried Black Ops III or Ghosts...those had significant, SIGNIFICANT, performance issues on PCs.

jdreyer wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 01:13:
The difference is you didn't illegally acquire the printer/scanner/equipment. The company lent it to you as a trial in hopes that you'd buy a whole bunch.

Yeah, and that's why PC publishers would do well to offer a trial/demo version, or a free day/weekend right at launch. Let players seriously try it. I bet you'd see significantly more sales.

jdreyer wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 01:13:
You're a sociopath. ...Complete rationalization of illegal behavior.

You realize how silly it is of you to argue with a sociopath? We have no emotion. You can't win. I can troll you all day and feel nothing.

PS: methinks you don't actually know what a sociopath is. Rationalizing illegal stuff, ironically, proves you aren't a sociopath since it shows you are trying to assuage guilt.

YOU JUST GOT OWNED BY A SOCIOPATH!!!

its far too late to correct the course for greater humanity

only thing that will work now is a cataclysm, either natural or man-made..

and its only a matter of "when", not "if"

El Pit wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 13:44:

Muscular Beaver wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 13:32:
Yeah, sure, thats how good changes in the past have always happened, huh?
If enough people get angry, changes happen. They wont get angry if they keep themselves numb with any kind of addiction.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” – Yoda

Good luck. I mean it. Take your boulder, Sisyphus, and have your go. Making people overcome fear and egoism is as much a realistic goal as walking from Earth to Mars by foot.

I dont try that. I only explained the irony in it.

Muscular Beaver wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 13:32:
Yeah, sure, thats how good changes in the past have always happened, huh?
If enough people get angry, changes happen. They wont get angry if they keep themselves numb with any kind of addiction.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” – Yoda

Good luck. I mean it. Take your boulder, Sisyphus, and have your go. Making people overcome fear and egoism is as much a realistic goal as walking from Earth to Mars by foot.

El Pit wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 13:21:

Muscular Beaver wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 12:34:

El Pit wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 11:48:
Yes, I like being lulled. It's better to have fun with games, life, and whatever you do than actually take a step back and analyze what is really going on. It would be the fastest way into a clinical depression.

And also coincidentally the fastest way to solve "whats really going on".

No it would not. You would find out that human beings are just apes with less hair and that they talk about changes that they neither REALLY want or would accept. And therefore, it's the fastest way into a clinical depression. It's better to accept that we are animals and adore every sunbeam and everything beautiful nature is throwing at us.

EDIT: And to enjoy games, of course. How could I forget about those?

Yeah, sure, thats how good changes in the past have always happened, huh?
If enough people get angry, changes happen. They wont get angry if they keep themselves numb with any kind of addiction.

Muscular Beaver wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 12:34:

El Pit wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 11:48:
Yes, I like being lulled. It's better to have fun with games, life, and whatever you do than actually take a step back and analyze what is really going on. It would be the fastest way into a clinical depression.

And also coincidentally the fastest way to solve "whats really going on".

No it would not. You would find out that human beings are just apes with less hair and that they talk about changes that they neither REALLY want or would accept. And therefore, it's the fastest way into a clinical depression. It's better to accept that we are animals and adore every sunbeam and everything beautiful nature is throwing at us.

EDIT: And to enjoy games, of course. How could I forget about those?

El Pit wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 11:48:
Yes, I like being lulled. It's better to have fun with games, life, and whatever you do than actually take a step back and analyze what is really going on. It would be the fastest way into a clinical depression.

And also coincidentally the fastest way to solve "whats really going on".

Suppa7, Marx would slap you in the face and tell you that games are just another opium for the people and that he therefore condemns playing those games because they are a means of oppression, to lull people who would otherwise fight the oppression.

Yes, I like being lulled. It's better to have fun with games, life, and whatever you do than actually take a step back and analyze what is really going on. It would be the fastest way into a clinical depression.

jdreyer wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 01:34:
Oh, no doubt. So instead of buying Battlfield or CoD, buy games that don't pull that kind of bullshit: ArmA, The Witcher, Shadowrun Returns, etc. etc.

Theroetically it'd be nice if the world worked that way but it doesn't. I am one of the original videogaming generation, I watched as games went from something we had on our computers to being cut up into front end client and back end server, instead of being stand alone programs so that you can never own anything you pay for ever again.

Stupid people and Kids don't know any better and they aren't going to deny themselves entertainment if we are honest with ourselves.

This is where marx was right about capitalism and the means of production, since you have no authority or say in how products are produced beyond voting with money, anyone who doesn't care/doesn't know/is ignorant and votes with their money thereby allows corporations to push products on us because the vast majority are stupid and will willingly give over their money thereby giving funds to make big games everyone wants thereby winning over or forcing the hands of the hold outs.

This is exactly how steam came to power and the same way MMO's paved the way for steam and online DRM.

The set of stupid people who keep giving funds to companies is too legion for free market theory to be anything but a fantasy.

Suppa7 wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 01:38:

jdreyer wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 01:28:
The solution to this however, is not to break the law. We have yet to make a serious attempt at changing the system from within. Get involved. Back a candidate. There is only one serious candidate for president who opposes the pro-corporate slant (at the expense of the citizenry) our country has been moving toward for the past several decades. Donate and campaign. Put your money where your mouth is.

The problem you are not seeing is that this is not true. You've just demonstrated my point that you aren't even informed enough about how capitalist democracy actually works. You show that you don't really understand the history of imperialism, its relation to big corporations and what they do to people who effect 'their' profits and monopoly on government.

See: The Crisis of democracy

"Intended as an internal document. Good reading to understand the nature of rich democracies and the fact that the common people are not allowed to play a role."

The Crisis of democracy

Amazon book - The Crisis of democracy

Theories of politics - who is represented in capitalist democracy

Princeton study - Do average citizens have any effect on policy/laws?

Of course I'm aware, I have quoted and linked to those very studies on this site. I'm also aware that we're entering a unique time in American politics where the citizens have grown wise to the game. It's not coincidence that Trump and Sanders are the top candidates, to the horror of the establishment. They are disruptors who intend to disrupt the status quo. And if the establishment manages to overrule (by superdelegate, or some other means) the will of the people, expect 2020 to support even more radical candidates.

This comment was edited on Feb 14, 2016, 02:17.

jdreyer wrote on Feb 14, 2016, 01:28:
The solution to this however, is not to break the law. We have yet to make a serious attempt at changing the system from within. Get involved. Back a candidate. There is only one serious candidate for president who opposes the pro-corporate slant (at the expense of the citizenry) our country has been moving toward for the past several decades. Donate and campaign. Put your money where your mouth is.

The problem you are not seeing is that this is not true. You've just demonstrated my point that you aren't even informed enough about how capitalist democracy actually works. You show that you don't really understand the history of imperialism, its relation to big corporations and what they do to people who effect 'their' profits and monopoly on government.

See: The Crisis of democracy

"Intended as an internal document. Good reading to understand the nature of rich democracies and the fact that the common people are not allowed to play a role."

The Crisis of democracy

Amazon book - The Crisis of democracy

Theories of politics - who is represented in capitalist democracy

Princeton study - Do average citizens have any effect on policy/laws?

NetHead wrote on Feb 13, 2016, 21:25:

As for piracy on the whole I don't think it's worth getting to wound up about, while I can only pull general and generally anecdotal numbers out of a hole (like everyone else is ultimately limited to on this subject) there's no way the average "pirate" who pirates a lot could afford to buy everything they pirate. I'm sure there are instances where someone has missed out on money they deserve and otherwise would have gotten were it not for pirating, I don't see anyone disagreeing with something like that, though just as sure as I am of that I'm equally sure that the amount of time and money spend on combating piracy far outweighs the cost of piracy itself.

Links or you're just making shit up.

There are other factors to consider in the very eager fight against pirating, which is that these companies have and like control. Control through licenses (which are only legal in certain places which is worth keeping in mind) and enforced through DRM. It's the kind of control that limit a consumer who's purchased a song only to playing it on one device or through only a certain service, even make them pay for the same thing at a later date on a different media format because the old is no longer in use.

DRM is not about fighting piracy, piracy is collateral damage which they would like to stop anyway while also being a very convenient scapegoat. DRM is about control, control over the paying customers for a lot of reasons in their view.

Oh, no doubt. So instead of buying Battlfield or CoD, buy games that don't pull that kind of bullshit: ArmA, The Witcher, Shadowrun Returns, etc. etc.

Suppa7 wrote on Feb 13, 2016, 20:09:
The average person is so stupid, historically illiterate and uninformed they've been basically giving away their rights to own their own culture they pay for, for 100+ years.

If anything we are subsidizing big business, too many people would rather be good little peons.

I'd rather see more of our rights restored. We can't get shit like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhAR8rWPluQ

... because most gamers are such bent over little anti-intellectual slaves.

Copyright extension act - assrapping us all

Why the hell would you not want more of things like Freespace 2 scp? Open source code for old games so we can modify them and updat them? Where might freespace 2, mechwarrior 2, and warcraft 2 and 3 be if we had the source to these old games?

The above old games outside of those ones whos source we have are frozen in time, they can't be updated by fans. It's a tragedy.

Just a few problems with your argument.

1. Yes, copyright is badly broken, but even if it were fixed it would not allow wholesale copying of days-old, weeks-old, or even months-old games.

2. Yes, our rights are eroding, and we're becoming (in the USA if not most of the world) and corporate oligarchy. The solution to this however, is not to break the law. We have yet to make a serious attempt at changing the system from within. Get involved. Back a candidate. There is only one serious candidate for president who opposes the pro-corporate slant (at the expense of the citizenry) our country has been moving toward for the past several decades. Donate and campaign. Put your money where your mouth is.

Also, "assrapping?" Can you name some rappers?

Brumbek wrote on Feb 13, 2016, 19:03:
Well, lots of players do buy it at release if the pirated copy works well. Case in point is the Call of Duty games, which these days are notorious for being horrible PC ports. Plenty pirate the game (offline play only of course), test it, then if it runs well, they buy it so they can play online.

Hahahahaha! You couldn't have given a more bullshit answer than CoD. The game engine is 7 years old, so of course it's going to run well.\\

Shorter Brumbek: "I'm allowed to drive the car off the lot for a week for free. A 30m test drive is not nearly enough to tell if it's a car I want to buy." Complete rationalization of illegal behavior. You're a sociopath.

I just think a lot of gamers aren't mature business-minded people. In business office settings it isn't uncommon to get a new printer/scanner/equipment and use it for a week or even a month before deciding on a final purchase decision.

The difference is you didn't illegally acquire the printer/scanner/equipment. The company lent it to you as a trial in hopes that you'd buy a whole bunch.

well, i once pirated cause it is free. No moral justification for it, and it does not bother me. That money which would had been spent, went to beer to accompany said gaming session.

You cant see how the controls are in a lets play video, or how audacious and annoying the DRM is, and most reviews also dont mention it. That is actually the biggest reasons I return or dislike games nowadays.
And yes, it takes me 1 hour to just get controls right in games like GTA 5 or ArmA. I actually played ArmA 3 4 hours until I returned it with a red face full of anger. I really tried to give it a chance, still do from time to time. Main reason were things that I would have never seen in a video, and most reviews didnt even mention them. In games like Total War Rome 2 you dont see how bad that game really is after 2 hours.

I think, and know from experience from many cases, that the vast majority of pirates wouldnt buy a game in any case, since they simply dont have the money. You can put up as much DRM as you like, they simply wont buy it, even if there is no cracked version for it for months. In some cases they can scrounge up money for a subscription game or 1 or 2 games a year, but thats it. There are several studies that support this too. If at all, piracy is actually free advertising.

NKD wrote on Feb 13, 2016, 17:56:
I don't believe anyone who says they pirate a game, play it, and then buy it if they are satisfied. Yeah, maybe they buy it on a Steam sale 2 years later when they want to re-play it, but they aren't slapping down $50-60 when it really counts in the first critical couple weeks of sales. It's too tempting to find excuses to not pay for it once you've already had it for free.

The bottom line is that people pirate because it's easy to do, usually doesn't get you caught, and if caught, only gets you a sternly worded letter from your ISP. And most importantly, because people like free shit.

I've always found the PC community's attitude towards piracy funny. If a developer or publisher complains about piracy, everyone freaks out and pretends it's not really a thing and there's no way it could impact sales and please oh god don't abandon the PC platform you assholes.

But then a few days later they are justifying why it's actually okay to pirate games.

Look, I don't give a shit if you pirate games. I've done it myself in the past. But don't try and justify your shit. You either just wanted free shit or didn't want to wait for a sale. There's no situation in which pirating a game is the moral choice. Sure, the consequences both to you and the developer are minimal and you're not exactly eating babies, and MAYBE you even pay for it later. But it's not justifiable.

Developers are putting out a product and asking a price for that product. Your choice is either to buy the product, or not buy it. If you're not comfortable with the price, or are not certain you'll be getting your money's worth, your only legitimate choice is to neither purchase nor play the title.

The developers are not entitled to your money, but neither are you entitled to play their game. Stop pretending otherwise.

There are 2 reasons I may pirate a game 1) financially unable to purchase the game at it's release or 2) That I may like the game but I already have quite a few games that taking up the play list do I need another game.
But I typically do use itt as a demo and to get a baseline of performance on my computer.

NKD wrote on Feb 13, 2016, 17:56:
I don't believe anyone who says they pirate a game, play it, and then buy it if they are satisfied...

Odd I've done exactly that, both with old games and new games, full price and discount price. I've even bought a game then downloaded the "pirate" version because in a number of instances it's quicker, easier and doesn't come with any strings. Also I know of many people who have done exactly that.

As for piracy on the whole I don't think it's worth getting to wound up about, while I can only pull general and generally anecdotal numbers out of a hole (like everyone else is ultimately limited to on this subject) there's no way the average "pirate" who pirates a lot could afford to buy everything they pirate. I'm sure there are instances where someone has missed out on money they deserve and otherwise would have gotten were it not for pirating, I don't see anyone disagreeing with something like that, though just as sure as I am of that I'm equally sure that the amount of time and money spend on combating piracy far outweighs the cost of piracy itself.

There are other factors to consider in the very eager fight against pirating, which is that these companies have and like control. Control through licenses (which are only legal in certain places which is worth keeping in mind) and enforced through DRM. It's the kind of control that limit a consumer who's purchased a song only to playing it on one device or through only a certain service, even make them pay for the same thing at a later date on a different media format because the old is no longer in use.

DRM is not about fighting piracy, piracy is collateral damage which they would like to stop anyway while also being a very convenient scapegoat. DRM is about control, control over the paying customers for a lot of reasons in their view.

I've always felt copyright is ridiculous in the first place. The extensions have been downright absurd. And with the TPP on the way they'll likely become permanent.

NKD wrote on Feb 13, 2016, 17:56:
I don't believe anyone who says they pirate a game, play it, and then buy it if they are satisfied. Yeah, maybe they buy it on a Steam sale 2 years later when they want to re-play it, but they aren't slapping down $50-60 when it really counts in the first critical couple weeks of sales. It's too tempting to find excuses to not pay for it once you've already had it for free.

I don't think you really get it, piracy is irrelevant. If what you said was true (aka piracy was really hurting the industry) that would mean the average gamer is informed and capable of punishing game companies. That isn't the average gamer though.

When MMO's Like ultima online and everquest first started, those games paved the way for online DRM. Let's be honest, the people who gave the green light to pay for a game you never own lead to the rise of things like league of legends and steam.

If we're honest with ourselves, for those of us who gamed in the 90's with level editors and open file gaming (aka doom, duke, descent, warcraft level editing, etc). Why the hell would anyone defend not pirating games? Our rights have been so pushed back by big money corporations we can't even get games going into the public domain anytime during our lifetime.

The average person is so stupid, historically illiterate and uninformed they've been basically giving away their rights to own their own culture they pay for, for 100+ years.

If anything we are subsidizing big business, too many people would rather be good little peons.

I'd rather see more of our rights restored. We can't get shit like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhAR8rWPluQ

... because most gamers are such bent over little anti-intellectual slaves.

Copyright extension act - assrapping us all

Why the hell would you not want more of things like Freespace 2 scp? Open source code for old games so we can modify them and updat them? Where might freespace 2, mechwarrior 2, and warcraft 2 and 3 be if we had the source to these old games?

The above old games outside of those ones whos source we have are frozen in time, they can't be updated by fans. It's a tragedy.

This comment was edited on Feb 13, 2016, 20:22.