Nucas wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 10:07:
this comment is in the worst traditions of american money-worshipping and excusing runaway greed. everyone imagines they're the plucky entrepreneur.. or someday soon by golly, they will be! guess what, you're actually the stiff getting fucked.

its the American Dream!!! hey, dont worry about all those assholes shitting all over you, just keep climbing that hill then you can be the one on top! shitting on everyone below!!

cento wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 14:10:

Slashman wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 07:09:
To be fair, I don't think it's a matter of him or anyone being surprised at a company going under. But rather that they allowed staff to continue to work(apparently the ENTIRE staff compliment) without any means to pay them.

And my point is that exactly that is indeed common enough an event that it generates no shock or surprise to any industry event. I have witnessed it first hand myself twice during my time in the industry.

Yes, it is a very very shitty thing for management to do. I feel so much sympathy for those chaps at Red5 (and in fact already relayed word within my company about reaching out to Red5 staff for any current openings we have), but shock? No, I feel no shock.

Sadly.

I wasn't shocked. I wasn't surprised. I was pissed. I was just stating my opinion that the whole situation was bullshit and it is. It wasn't because I haven't seen this before. In fact, I stated as much in my second reply.

Rigs wrote on Dec 28, 2015, 20:26:
Just because I'm pissed that something happened again that shouldn't happen doesn't mean this is the first time I've ever encountered it.

(Because of past comments that turned into arguments because my tone was considered 'hostile', let me be clear in that I am not saying this in a nasty or argumentative manner. I'm just trying to explain my initial mindset from my first post because it seems it was misunderstood)


=-Rigs-=

Slashman wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 07:09:
To be fair, I don't think it's a matter of him or anyone being surprised at a company going under. But rather that they allowed staff to continue to work(apparently the ENTIRE staff compliment) without any means to pay them.

And my point is that exactly that is indeed common enough an event that it generates no shock or surprise to any industry event. I have witnessed it first hand myself twice during my time in the industry.

Yes, it is a very very shitty thing for management to do. I feel so much sympathy for those chaps at Red5 (and in fact already relayed word within my company about reaching out to Red5 staff for any current openings we have), but shock? No, I feel no shock.

Sadly.

Slashman wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 10:23:

Beamer wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 09:18:
This isn't just standard games industry stuff, it's standard start-up stuff.

You say they should have either stopped the employees from working or done layoffs. The problem with those ideas is that it's throwing in the towel. It's essentially closing shop.

I am not defending what they did, just explaining that the reason it's common is that management keeps hoping for a new infusion of cash. They're hoping that someone will invest in them, or even buy them, to keep the company afloat and keep the business running. To keep those employees employed.

Once there's a layoff, this is less likely. The company has less value because the people that gave it value are gone. Instead, anyone looking to buy is more likely to buy assets, and no one will invest because the people you want to invest in were just let go and are unlikely to come back.

Essentially, after a few rounds of layoffs, and now this, the company is almost definitely done. But this gave them two more weeks to try to avert that.

This is a developer for an already F2P MMO that is doing badly. What magic would make that suddenly right in a few weeks?

The writing would have already been carved into the wall months before. MMOs don't lose traction all in one go.

Startup or not, screwing over people who you didn't have to screw over is shitty.

And for the record, I worked for a small company once and the owner came to me and told me that things were looking bad and he had to lay me off. You know what? That was the right thing to do. the company was his dream and his baby but reality is friggin' reality. I respect him way more for that than if he had let me work for the next two/three months with nothing to pay me with.

Yes, it's unlikely, but still possible.

I worked for a small company and they warned us that we'd have layoffs upcoming. Then they warned us that our shares were worth nothing (we always knew this.)

Then, at the last minute, they were acquired, and all the jobs remained.

Yes, they never got to the point that they actually went without paying someone, but they got the hail mary everyone hopes for when they end up doing this.

If you were told you'd either be laid off 2 weeks before Christmas, or work through it unpaid with the possibility, no matter how slight, you could save your job, which would you choose?

Beamer wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 09:18:
This isn't just standard games industry stuff, it's standard start-up stuff.

You say they should have either stopped the employees from working or done layoffs. The problem with those ideas is that it's throwing in the towel. It's essentially closing shop.

I am not defending what they did, just explaining that the reason it's common is that management keeps hoping for a new infusion of cash. They're hoping that someone will invest in them, or even buy them, to keep the company afloat and keep the business running. To keep those employees employed.

Once there's a layoff, this is less likely. The company has less value because the people that gave it value are gone. Instead, anyone looking to buy is more likely to buy assets, and no one will invest because the people you want to invest in were just let go and are unlikely to come back.

Essentially, after a few rounds of layoffs, and now this, the company is almost definitely done. But this gave them two more weeks to try to avert that.

This is a developer for an already F2P MMO that is doing badly. What magic would make that suddenly right in a few weeks?

The writing would have already been carved into the wall months before. MMOs don't lose traction all in one go.

Startup or not, screwing over people who you didn't have to screw over is shitty.

And for the record, I worked for a small company once and the owner came to me and told me that things were looking bad and he had to lay me off. You know what? That was the right thing to do. the company was his dream and his baby but reality is friggin' reality. I respect him way more for that than if he had let me work for the next two/three months with nothing to pay me with.

Tom wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 01:31:

Rigs wrote on Dec 28, 2015, 20:26:
These people worked the hours, now pay up! (WHERE'S MY MONEY?!?) And if not, there better be a big fucking bonus when you slimey bastards DO finally pay! You can't even begin to possibly tell me they didn't see this coming like a month or two or six in advance?! BULL-SHIT!

Ok, so you thought the suits could see it coming but the employees couldn't? Or is it that you don't think employees have any responsibility to find another job on their own when they know their current place is circling the drain?

Employment is a two-way street with rights and responsibilities on both ends. Pretending otherwise is counter-productive.

rights and responsibilities.. what an audacious comment.

your responsibility is to provide performance on par with the pay. it's not your responsibility to divine the company's financial situation (and i think we can assume it was being obfuscated from everyone but the people writing the checks), or attempt to deduce when the leadership is getting ready to cash out while still making use of your services, for free.

it's no one's responsibility to guard against getting literally robbed by their employer.

this comment is in the worst traditions of american money-worshipping and excusing runaway greed. everyone imagines they're the plucky entrepreneur.. or someday soon by golly, they will be! guess what, you're actually the stiff getting fucked.

This comment was edited on Dec 29, 2015, 10:16.

Slashman wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 07:09:

cento wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 05:38:

Rigs wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 04:22:
I kinda assumed that it would have been interpreted that since I've been gaming this whole time that I would obviously know the industry around the hobby (and career, as a system builder) I've pretty much dedicated my life to. One of those read-between-the-lines things. Much of my knowledge didn't actually come from playing the games, per se, but from reading about them, and the industry, in gaming magazines, of which I have over 500 in five big plastic containers (comprising nearly every issue of CGW, PC Gamer and NEXT GEN in the 90's, along with others, some going back to '89)... ;)

Except that being an avid enthusiast, even reading so much about it... is nothing like the knowledge of having been in the industry.

Case in point, no one in the industry - NO ONE - would respond with any kind of shock to these events at Red5 as you expressed. That difference is huge. Actual familiarity means not having a bit of shock - because it is just that common. Instead, those of us that know it, just shake our heads sadly and hope these poor souls land back on their feet quickly.


P.S. - totally not attacking you. I appreciate your enthusiasm for the hobby. just sharing insight from someone that has been through exactly what these folks at Red5 are going through now.

To be fair, I don't think it's a matter of him or anyone being surprised at a company going under. But rather that they allowed staff to continue to work(apparently the ENTIRE staff compliment) without any means to pay them. Then they say they are working to resolve the issue. Layoffs should have been way before this and now that this has happened, they should be doing them right now.

I think we all know the game industry is shitty. But losing your job with little notice is different to being allowed to work with no pay incoming.

This isn't just standard games industry stuff, it's standard start-up stuff.

You say they should have either stopped the employees from working or done layoffs. The problem with those ideas is that it's throwing in the towel. It's essentially closing shop.

I am not defending what they did, just explaining that the reason it's common is that management keeps hoping for a new infusion of cash. They're hoping that someone will invest in them, or even buy them, to keep the company afloat and keep the business running. To keep those employees employed.

Once there's a layoff, this is less likely. The company has less value because the people that gave it value are gone. Instead, anyone looking to buy is more likely to buy assets, and no one will invest because the people you want to invest in were just let go and are unlikely to come back.

Essentially, after a few rounds of layoffs, and now this, the company is almost definitely done. But this gave them two more weeks to try to avert that.

cento wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 05:38:

Rigs wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 04:22:
I kinda assumed that it would have been interpreted that since I've been gaming this whole time that I would obviously know the industry around the hobby (and career, as a system builder) I've pretty much dedicated my life to. One of those read-between-the-lines things. Much of my knowledge didn't actually come from playing the games, per se, but from reading about them, and the industry, in gaming magazines, of which I have over 500 in five big plastic containers (comprising nearly every issue of CGW, PC Gamer and NEXT GEN in the 90's, along with others, some going back to '89)... ;)

Except that being an avid enthusiast, even reading so much about it... is nothing like the knowledge of having been in the industry.

Case in point, no one in the industry - NO ONE - would respond with any kind of shock to these events at Red5 as you expressed. That difference is huge. Actual familiarity means not having a bit of shock - because it is just that common. Instead, those of us that know it, just shake our heads sadly and hope these poor souls land back on their feet quickly.


P.S. - totally not attacking you. I appreciate your enthusiasm for the hobby. just sharing insight from someone that has been through exactly what these folks at Red5 are going through now.

To be fair, I don't think it's a matter of him or anyone being surprised at a company going under. But rather that they allowed staff to continue to work(apparently the ENTIRE staff compliment) without any means to pay them. Then they say they are working to resolve the issue. Layoffs should have been way before this and now that this has happened, they should be doing them right now.

I think we all know the game industry is shitty. But losing your job with little notice is different to being allowed to work with no pay incoming.

a

This comment was edited on Sep 1, 2019, 01:21.

Rigs wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 04:22:
I kinda assumed that it would have been interpreted that since I've been gaming this whole time that I would obviously know the industry around the hobby (and career, as a system builder) I've pretty much dedicated my life to. One of those read-between-the-lines things. Much of my knowledge didn't actually come from playing the games, per se, but from reading about them, and the industry, in gaming magazines, of which I have over 500 in five big plastic containers (comprising nearly every issue of CGW, PC Gamer and NEXT GEN in the 90's, along with others, some going back to '89)... ;)

Except that being an avid enthusiast, even reading so much about it... is nothing like the knowledge of having been in the industry.

Case in point, no one in the industry - NO ONE - would respond with any kind of shock to these events at Red5 as you expressed. That difference is huge. Actual familiarity means not having a bit of shock - because it is just that common. Instead, those of us that know it, just shake our heads sadly and hope these poor souls land back on their feet quickly.


P.S. - totally not attacking you. I appreciate your enthusiasm for the hobby. just sharing insight from someone that has been through exactly what these folks at Red5 are going through now.

Tom wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 01:31:

Rigs wrote on Dec 28, 2015, 20:26:
These people worked the hours, now pay up! (WHERE'S MY MONEY?!?) And if not, there better be a big fucking bonus when you slimey bastards DO finally pay! You can't even begin to possibly tell me they didn't see this coming like a month or two or six in advance?! BULL-SHIT!

Ok, so you thought the suits could see it coming but the employees couldn't? Or is it that you don't think employees have any responsibility to find another job on their own when they know their current place is circling the drain?

Employment is a two-way street with rights and responsibilities on both ends. Pretending otherwise is counter-productive.

You seriously going to stand behind that comment? What you just said is beyond ridiculous. So you're saying that the employee is at fault here, too?! Are you fucking insane? Geezus, man...

cento wrote on Dec 29, 2015, 02:54:
To be fair, he never said you were not familiar with gaming - he said you were not familiar with the game industry. Two very different things.

I kinda assumed that it would have been interpreted that since I've been gaming this whole time that I would obviously know the industry around the hobby (and career, as a system builder) I've pretty much dedicated my life to. One of those read-between-the-lines things. Much of my knowledge didn't actually come from playing the games, per se, but from reading about them, and the industry, in gaming magazines, of which I have over 500 in five big plastic containers (comprising nearly every issue of CGW, PC Gamer and NEXT GEN in the 90's, along with others, some going back to '89)...


=-Rigs-=

The boss better start walkn the street and suckn some dick, people need to get paid.

Wallshadows wrote on Dec 28, 2015, 18:13:
I'm surprised this game survived more than a month outside of beta, let alone years.

That was my thought. This game has been in development for nearly 10 years. How is this studio even solvent? How did it not run out of funds years ago?

Rigs wrote on Dec 28, 2015, 23:07:

Ludomancer wrote on Dec 28, 2015, 22:17:
Not familiar with the game industry, are you.

On the contrary, young padawan, I've been in gaming almost my entire life, nearly all 37 years of it.

To be fair, he never said you were not familiar with gaming - he said you were not familiar with the game industry. Two very different things.

The game industry is very notorious for its lack of stability, and shenanigans like this... are sadly more common than they should be. I have been a gamer a LONG time - my first console was the old Pong system. I have also worked in the game industry a long time - more than two decades. In that time, I have been luckier than most, experienced more stability than most, but have gone through some of this as well.

My previous employer still owes me almost $25k in unpaid wages and compensation. I'll never see it. It happened for me right before xmas as well (though back in 2008 in my case). Is it illegal? Oh yes. Good luck ever recovering anything though.

Anyone currently at Red5 should be looking for new work asap.

'Two-way street'? You're saying that when people are NOT being paid for that they have done?

That's a fucked up way to look at things mate.

Employers have a responsibility to pay for work done ... end of story.

If they don't have the money or know they are not gonna have the money they need to lay people off - not get them to do work and then not pay them.

Rigs wrote on Dec 28, 2015, 20:26:
These people worked the hours, now pay up! (WHERE'S MY MONEY?!?) And if not, there better be a big fucking bonus when you slimey bastards DO finally pay! You can't even begin to possibly tell me they didn't see this coming like a month or two or six in advance?! BULL-SHIT!

Ok, so you thought the suits could see it coming but the employees couldn't? Or is it that you don't think employees have any responsibility to find another job on their own when they know their current place is circling the drain?

Employment is a two-way street with rights and responsibilities on both ends. Pretending otherwise is counter-productive.

Ludomancer wrote on Dec 28, 2015, 22:17:

Rigs wrote on Dec 28, 2015, 20:26:
No, see this right here is pure, unmitigated BULLSHIT. (You know what's bulllllshit?...been watching too much AVGN ) It should be against the fucking law to skip out on paying employees (period), especially during the holidays. That's just low...so goddamn low. That's lower than dirt. You're in mud and clay territory. These people worked the hours, now pay up! (WHERE'S MY MONEY?!?) And if not, there better be a big fucking bonus when you slimey bastards DO finally pay! You can't even begin to possibly tell me they didn't see this coming like a month or two or six in advance?! BULL-SHIT!
ARGH! God, that shit pisses me off!
=-Rigs-=

Not familiar with the game industry, are you.

On the contrary, young padawan, I've been in gaming almost my entire life, nearly all 37 years of it. My first experience was playing on my Atari5200 when I was around 4. Then I got a Tandy CoCo3 when I was 5, then it was on to SEGA's stable of consoles until 1992 when I entered the modern PC gaming world with a 486SX/25. Just because I'm pissed that something happened again that shouldn't happen doesn't mean this is the first time I've ever encountered it. Never judge a book by it's cover...or a poster by one post...uh, as it were...


=-Rigs-=

i should probably play this one last time, too bad they ripped out the MP. I met the lead devs at PAX a couple years back, they said they had no plans on bringing it back. it was pathetic.

Mark Kern is a fucking disaster, torpedoed what should have been a fun game, WAS fun in beta years ago, and slowly got shittier and shittier...

I had the epic angel wings glider too... you could double boost straight up in the air, and then trigger it, and basically fly anywhere. loved the mobility with the fun PvE shooting.

Rigs wrote on Dec 28, 2015, 20:26:
No, see this right here is pure, unmitigated BULLSHIT. (You know what's bulllllshit?...been watching too much AVGN ) It should be against the fucking law to skip out on paying employees (period), especially during the holidays. That's just low...so goddamn low. That's lower than dirt. You're in mud and clay territory. These people worked the hours, now pay up! (WHERE'S MY MONEY?!?) And if not, there better be a big fucking bonus when you slimey bastards DO finally pay! You can't even begin to possibly tell me they didn't see this coming like a month or two or six in advance?! BULL-SHIT!
ARGH! God, that shit pisses me off!
=-Rigs-=

Not familiar with the game industry, are you.

The game had almost no solid direction from the get go. I was in early, and it was rather awkward to see where they thought they wanted to go vs went