Kxmode wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 17:46:

KilrathiAce wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 09:33:
Kylo is so good with the force that earlier he sensed someone firing blaster at him in the back of him like 100 meters away, he managed to instantly freeze the blaster fire mid air and freeze the shooter, the blaster mid air remained frozen by his force trick for next 5 minutes while kylo was doing other stuff... thats some powerful use of the force, and yet later in the movie he seems to be portayed as very green in force and seemed to lack any training with light saber... just makes no sense.

It made perfect sense to me. Kylo represent a type of force wielding user who can use the force very effectively in non-combat situations, but, as Snoke stated, needed additional training to wield a lightsaber. Look at his saber. It's gnarly and reckless just like its master. His character reminds me of classes in video games for example World of Warcraft. If Vader, Obi-wan, Luke, Yoda, Dooku and Maul represent Warriors... Kylo Ren represents a Rogue. Very good at sapping targets but sucks at combat.

That's one way to look at it.

I looked at it like Kylo is immensely strong in the Force but has absolutely zero finesse. You can attribute that to his incomplete training, or maybe he just doesn't have the finesse that other force users have and that's why he ended up obsessing over Vader- who was a pretty blunt instrument.

I also figured that the ratty saber blade, the "cross guard" saber blades, and almost everything about him was meant to scream "I'm inferior to Vader". Rey calls him out on it. But I don't think he's meant to stay there. I suspect Episode 8 will have him seriously going dark side. Not just dark side posing but embracing the hate as it were after he gets his ass kicked by someone completely untrained. Before then he really didn't have to step up his game. Now he does.

What's weird is that Rey is a total Mary Sue, and has little to develop in the force under Luke. She can already do most of the stuff Jedi can by the end of the first movie. Maybe not consistently but it just feels like she doesn't have a lot of room to grow as a force user unless she goes all Super Saiyan. Which would be kind of silly. I liked her as a character but as a function of the multi-movie plot it seems like they left her nowhere to really go.

It would be interesting, and a nice reversal, to see Kylo go through a major character arc and have Rey basically remain static until the end of the trilogy. It'd be an interesting inversion on the original trilogy, and might end up building more sympathy for the devil as it were.

To be "more like vader" is exactly why he wears the mask and they even allude to that in the film (twice IIRC). The way Kylo was seduced by Snoke into the dark side has to revolve directly around either Vader's death and holding Luke accountable for it, or around Rey's birth/existence. I would bet that Kylo is going to spiral way, way farther down the dark-side path than anyone we have seen on screen yet, and struggle with controlling it the whole way (possibly even not be able to control it resulting in either his own or someone else's untimely death). Not to mention that these ragey Kylo scenes are the absolute best visual interpretation we've gotten of anyone from the dark side. Sith are supposed to be all emotion and rage and angst... not "in control" at all.

Vader/Palpatine/Dooku all sucked total ass as far as what one should expect a sith to be like. There was a great article written about how the First Order and Kylo are exactly the kind of truly fearsome Empire/Darkside that Star Wars has always been missing from the beginning.

Rey being Luke's daughter seems to be too obvious. She has to be a Skywalker given her strength with the force. Leia and Han not remembering that they exiled their own daughter on Jakku? No fucking way. Unless Luke lied to them that she died in the academy attack and hid her from them too... and that seems extremely unlikely... it almost has to be Luke's daughter.

We will see Luke fall in love in rogue one (and struggle with it), but they probably won't mention the pregnancy right away (that feels like a SW8 reveal). Luke probably didn't tell anyone about her or who she was at the academy, and exiled her on his own after Kylo turned (she is probably also the only survivor from that attack). It is very likely that Snoke hoped Kylo would have killed Rey during the attack despite not knowing who she was, as Snoke is very obviously concerned to find out that this girl survived that initial attack and her existence is not a surprise to him. This could explain why Kylo's training is very incomplete, he never completed his Jedi training and never seemingly started official Sith training either. Kylo was merely tricked into attacking the academy by Snoke "for the greater good" as Anakin was similarly tricked into doing the bidding of the Emperor for "good" reasons.

When Luke sees Kylo turn to the dark side he likely fears that their bloodline is too strong with the force to not be swayed by the dark side and exiles Rey to Jakku as a result, while trying to become stronger with the force himself. He probably feels he failed as a master to the padawans because he isn't strong or pure enough with the force. This touches back to those Dark Luke theories, that he was likely tainted by the dark side in some way during his Vader/Emperor battle and has never fully recovered. Luke suppresses Rey's memories of the Jedi Academy when he exiles her, which Kylo begins to undo as he was prying into her mind for information about the map.

I definitely like the "Snoke as Darth Plagueis" theories... That he was Palpatine's master who learned to create life with the force and 'created' Anakin inside his mother. That could help explain away the miracle birth, 'midichlorians' and the extreme and inexplicable power of the Skywalker lineage. Look at Palpatine's history too... Under Plagueis's manipulation, Palpatine killed his father and pledged himself to his new Master's dark side teachings as Darth Sidious. This can now mirror Kylo killing his father and committing fully to the dark side.

Jesus... :p Some people here are extremely bad at connect-the-dots. Sometimes I like to draw squiggly lines between the dots, but I think most of my theories here are pretty solid.

This comment was edited on Dec 28, 2015, 12:48.

Kxmode wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 17:38:

CJ_Parker wrote on Dec 25, 2015, 23:16:

Rossafur wrote on Dec 25, 2015, 21:16:
Kylo Ren... should not have been unmasked (literally and... emotionally?) that early. Now they have to do some SERIOUS work on his character to get anyone to fear/respect him as a real villain in the future.

Nah. He's done. Even w/o the unmasking he was done for me when he threw those silly temper tantrums and smashed stuff to pieces in anger. How utterly silly was that?

The unmasking was done for the teenage girlie fans. "OMG he's so handsome and yet so evil, how can it be?".

The mask is retarded anyway. Vader actually needed it for life support. Kylo wears it... why? To look more evil? It's dumb and silly. Maul, Palpatine, Dooku. None of them wore a dumb unnecessary mask.

It is also already obvious that Rey will eventually turn him back to the light side either because they will discover that they are twins (an element just waiting to be rehashed as well from the prequels) or because they will fall in love with each other.

I'm betting on the twin thing. Luke trained them both from an early age, then something bad happened like maybe one of Kylo's/Ben's tantrums where maybe he force-choked her to near death, which wiped her memory and made Han and Leia believe their daughter was dead.

Now that Rey has found Luke they will take on the 1st order. Kylo will kill Luke at some point and then in the final movie Rey will show him the light like Luke did with Vader and it will either kill Kylo or they will live happily ever after.

/Nostradamus out (but it's not that hard to predict if the lame-ass rehashing of themes continues as in TFA)

So, tell us how you really feel about the films.

you completely suck at story interpretation. as do a lot of people in this thread.

Rey is Lukes Daughter. He sent her away when Ben Solo turned dark and killed all his trainees and his wife. She is the direct heir of Anakins and lukes force power. because she comes from Luke. Ben is a wana be because he comes from Leah.

She starts kicking his ass so fast because she is the most powerful force user since Anakin and has all of his technical skills to boot. Ben only wants to be Vader. But his is going to go super dark now way past anything Vader did after killing his father.

He is not going to be turned back to the light ever. Hes done. Also he is the Master of the Knights of Ren. He is not a Sith. The Knights Of Ren are sworn to destroy all jedi.

Rossafur wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 23:12:

Nucas wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 22:59:
i think it makes sense. he's powerful but undisciplined, possibly untrained. snoke isn't a sith, and it seems apparent kylo ren hasn't been taught how to use or even maybe even make a lightsaber, because his looks like shit, and he hacks away amateurishly with it. star wars has never lacked for good choreography (in the last 15 years anyway), we have to assume they made it look that way on purpose, to convey a message.

I *hope* you're not giving them too much credit there... Star Wars has always been merchandising first, story second, -so I'm not entirely sure the primary villain's weapon was purposefully designed to be lame in appearance when they planned to sell a ton of Kylo Ren action figures and lightsabers (which I'm sure they have already).

i totally get the cynicism (particularly as i've always thought jj abrams' movies were very clinical and uninteresting) but the scene that really hammered this home was when he and finn clash sabers and are face to face. you can see luke's blade is smooth and clean, and kylo ren's looks rough and sounds rough. you can see stray bolts of energy crackling along it. they also really take pains to avoid "darth" or "sith" titles. i'm very interested in seeing who or what snoke is, or what kylo ren's "training" consisted of since a keystone of it was killing a family member, apparently.

nin wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 17:52:

harlock wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 17:46:
your reactions to everything are so painfully mediocre, predictable and banal...

I would hope the irony of your statement verses your postings isn't lost on you.

Hello, pot!

i was going to leave it alone, but fucking ding

This comment was edited on Dec 27, 2015, 05:35.

nin wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 17:52:

harlock wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 17:46:
your reactions to everything are so painfully mediocre, predictable and banal...

I would hope the irony of your statement verses your postings isn't lost on you.

Hello, pot!

Nailed it in one.

Nucas wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 22:59:
i think it makes sense. he's powerful but undisciplined, possibly untrained. snoke isn't a sith, and it seems apparent kylo ren hasn't been taught how to use or even maybe even make a lightsaber, because his looks like shit, and he hacks away amateurishly with it. star wars has never lacked for good choreography (in the last 15 years anyway), we have to assume they made it look that way on purpose, to convey a message.

I *hope* you're not giving them too much credit there... Star Wars has always been merchandising first, story second, -so I'm not entirely sure the primary villain's weapon was purposefully designed to be lame in appearance when they planned to sell a ton of Kylo Ren action figures and lightsabers (which I'm sure they have already).

KilrathiAce wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 09:33:
Kylo is so good with the force that earlier he sensed someone firing blaster at him in the back of him like 100 meters away, he managed to instantly freeze the blaster fire mid air and freeze the shooter, the blaster mid air remained frozen by his force trick for next 5 minutes while kylo was doing other stuff... thats some powerful use of the force, and yet later in the movie he seems to be portayed as very green in force and seemed to lack any training with light saber... just makes no sense.

i think it makes sense. he's powerful but undisciplined, possibly untrained. snoke isn't a sith, and it seems apparent kylo ren hasn't been taught how to use or even maybe even make a lightsaber, because his looks like shit, and he hacks away amateurishly with it. star wars has never lacked for good choreography (in the last 15 years anyway), we have to assume they made it look that way on purpose, to convey a message.

This comment was edited on Dec 27, 2015, 05:25.

nin wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 17:52:

harlock wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 17:46:
your reactions to everything are so painfully mediocre, predictable and banal...

I would hope the irony of your statement verses your postings isn't lost on you.

Hello, pot!

Ha-ha yup.

harlock wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 17:46:
your reactions to everything are so painfully mediocre, predictable and banal...

I would hope the irony of your statement verses your postings isn't lost on you.

Hello, pot!

Kxmode wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 17:38:
So, tell us how you really feel about the films.

so - only your blind teenybopper gushing is applicable? is that it?

your reactions to everything are so painfully mediocre, predictable and banal... you are the most white bread of all white breads, congrats

KilrathiAce wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 09:33:
Kylo is so good with the force that earlier he sensed someone firing blaster at him in the back of him like 100 meters away, he managed to instantly freeze the blaster fire mid air and freeze the shooter, the blaster mid air remained frozen by his force trick for next 5 minutes while kylo was doing other stuff... thats some powerful use of the force, and yet later in the movie he seems to be portayed as very green in force and seemed to lack any training with light saber... just makes no sense.

It made perfect sense to me. Kylo represent a type of force wielding user who can use the force very effectively in non-combat situations, but, as Snoke stated, needed additional training to wield a lightsaber. Look at his saber. It's gnarly and reckless just like its master. His character reminds me of classes in video games for example World of Warcraft. If Vader, Obi-wan, Luke, Yoda, Dooku and Maul represent Warriors... Kylo Ren represents a Rogue. Very good at sapping targets but sucks at combat.

CJ_Parker wrote on Dec 25, 2015, 23:16:

Rossafur wrote on Dec 25, 2015, 21:16:
Kylo Ren... should not have been unmasked (literally and... emotionally?) that early. Now they have to do some SERIOUS work on his character to get anyone to fear/respect him as a real villain in the future.

Nah. He's done. Even w/o the unmasking he was done for me when he threw those silly temper tantrums and smashed stuff to pieces in anger. How utterly silly was that?

The unmasking was done for the teenage girlie fans. "OMG he's so handsome and yet so evil, how can it be?".

The mask is retarded anyway. Vader actually needed it for life support. Kylo wears it... why? To look more evil? It's dumb and silly. Maul, Palpatine, Dooku. None of them wore a dumb unnecessary mask.

It is also already obvious that Rey will eventually turn him back to the light side either because they will discover that they are twins (an element just waiting to be rehashed as well from the prequels) or because they will fall in love with each other.

I'm betting on the twin thing. Luke trained them both from an early age, then something bad happened like maybe one of Kylo's/Ben's tantrums where maybe he force-choked her to near death, which wiped her memory and made Han and Leia believe their daughter was dead.

Now that Rey has found Luke they will take on the 1st order. Kylo will kill Luke at some point and then in the final movie Rey will show him the light like Luke did with Vader and it will either kill Kylo or they will live happily ever after.

/Nostradamus out (but it's not that hard to predict if the lame-ass rehashing of themes continues as in TFA)

So, tell us how you really feel about the films.

CJ_Parker wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 11:41:
It would also be a good era to cover with games but the last time they had such an opportunity (to cover the space between eps III and IV) they crapped out the TFU games so I'm not exactly hopeful in that regard. The lack of good story-driven Star Wars games is actually kinda appalling if you consider the theoretically rich lore and background.

Well, duh, obviously that costs money and pirates would just torrent the shit out of it and they'd lose money. Much better to make half a game like Battlefront and charge full price for it, because Star Wars.

/snark

harlock wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 07:16:
id be willing to bet an immense amount of the entertainment value in this movie has to do with the millions of dollars in VFX work, and the spectacular artistry involved with that

as opposed to say, the actual storyline itself... which id probly say is quite a bit less interesting or well crafted than some current excellent TV series

My thought upon leaving the movie was "At least The Expanse is pretty good."

harlock wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 06:56:
havent cared about it at all... ive never been a huge fan of star wars but im pretty actively against seeing this one after hearing about it for a while now...

it sounds like some straight up Disney shit, which is applicable, i guess... i mean, Lucas was already like a 2nd rate Disney to begin with, albeit a tad more "mature" if you can call it that

The problem is more Abrams than Disney, but they both contribute.

problem is that this era of movies, which brought you things like Conan, Krull, Beastmaster, Terminator, Wrath of Khan, Bladerunner, Dragonslayer, Ice Pirates, and so on and so forth - it was a golden era for this kind of thing and it has long since passed, and the EPIC fantasy movie artform has dwindled to jack shit, which is why all these dumbfucks are trying to RELIVE the PAST because they have NOTHING LEFT TO GIVE and NOTHING NEW TO ADD

at this point there are only a handful of said artists still around, its still here, just far, far more rare - see, the glory days have come and gone so now you have also-rans and tributes and obsessive nerds and so forth and all this BULLSHIT that comes along with having a monumental history of legendary items

The rating system and "four quadrant" goal has basically ruined these kinds of movies.

CJ_Parker wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 11:41:
Yes... or one of those other spin-off movies that are supposed to come out in between the new episodes here and there.

You mean the ones that all take place before Episode IV? Okay, the Boba Fett movie isn't confirmed to take place then, but it's got to be before ESB at least, unless they go down the ridiculous road in the EU books of making him survive the Sarlacc. There's not much chance any of them will shed any light on the backstory between Episode 6 and 7.

As for Half Elf and others seeing spoilers, I feel your pain. That's one of the reasons I made sure to watch the movie the opening weekend (and I don't do social media, but the spoilers are still everywhere with this movie). I've seen enough spoilers for starting movies or shows late, or because I didn't care about them and then change my mind to give them a shot (Harry Potter and Game of Thrones come to mind). It sucks, but there seems to be no avoiding it these days.

I liked the movie but it wasn't perfect. I agree with some of the complaints here but not all. There was no possible way that the movie would have pleased all the fans; there is no competing with the power of nostalgia. Also, there was no way Disney was going to take big risks with the movie, and playing it safe paid off. Lucas took risks with the Prequels and while they were profitable, they were not as insanely successful as Episode 7 has already been.

El Pit wrote on Dec 26, 2015, 10:18:
Watch out, more spoilers ahead!
KilrathiAce, I think Rey knows how to use the force because she has been a padawan at Luke's new Jedi academy that was attacked and destroyed by Ben Solo-Organa aka Kylo Ren. That's my interpretation based on Rey's vision when she touches the magic light sword. I guess she survived the attack and when Luke shut down the academy (and the jedi) after the attack, she was brought to Jakku, and either the trauma/the shock of the attack made her forget everything or a jedi mind trick helped her to forget about it. It's just a guess, though, because I think JJA and Larry Kasdan wanted to spare that part of Rey's story for the sequels.

Spot on... and we will also learn that she is Ben's twin sister. I can already see it in episode VIII. Ben/Kylo has her on the edge of some scaffolding with her arm chopped off and then... "No. I am your brother!".

/golfclap

Maybe Disney wants us to buy the accompanying books and comics to learn about those 30+ years?

Yes... or one of those other spin-off movies that are supposed to come out in between the new episodes here and there.
It would also be a good era to cover with games but the last time they had such an opportunity (to cover the space between eps III and IV) they crapped out the TFU games so I'm not exactly hopeful in that regard. The lack of good story-driven Star Wars games is actually kinda appalling if you consider the theoretically rich lore and background.

Watch out, more spoilers ahead!
KilrathiAce, I think Rey knows how to use the force because she has been a padawan at Luke's new Jedi academy that was attacked and destroyed by Ben Solo-Organa aka Kylo Ren. That's my interpretation based on Rey's vision when she touches the magic light sword. I guess she survived the attack and when Luke shut down the academy (and the jedi) after the attack, she was brought to Jakku, and either the trauma/the shock of the attack made her forget everything or a jedi mind trick helped her to forget about it. It's just a guess, though, because I think JJA and Larry Kasdan wanted to spare that part of Rey's story for the sequels.
You're right about Kylo, though. In the beginning he uses the force like Vader and later he struggles (although being hurt before the fight) vs. Finn who himself lost a fight against a riot control storm trooper before.
The whole movie is very uneven, and the story contrived and just thrown together. It's missing story links to the original trilogy. What happened in the last three decades?! What is this new republic, what happened to Leia, why is she a general, and a general of what? A private army? What happened to the rebellions as a movement? Questions question questions all left unanswered.
Maybe Disney wants us to buy the accompanying books and comics to learn about those 30+ years?

Kylo is so good with the force that earlier he sensed someone firing blaster at him in the back of him like 100 meters away, he managed to instantly freeze the blaster fire mid air and freeze the shooter, the blaster mid air remained frozen by his force trick for next 5 minutes while kylo was doing other stuff... thats some powerful use of the force, and yet later in the movie he seems to be portayed as very green in force and seemed to lack any training with light saber... just makes no sense. Further, snoke says he needs to finish kylos training, the way it looked 2nd half othe movie maybe he never started it.... One important constant and how it was handled of original movies was the force itself and that it was a process to learn to use it and master it, thats why jedi usually assigned apprentices, and candidates were learning to use force from young... and yet Ren instantly manages to just use force for things like mind tricks etc... they basically destroyed the concept that use of force was a learning process and it took a lot to master, kinda like when you learning a language or learning to surf.

Be aware - Episode VII spoilers included!!!

Episode VII was alright and entertaining but not in a league with the original trilogy. When exactly did the force awaken? Okay, Rey found out she is force sensitive but that did not awaken the force itself. Kylo Ren was around as a force user, Luke is still alive (and his appearance in the movie was cringeworthy), Snoke is most likely a force user... So the force was not asleep at all. So why this title?
And don't get me started on Han's death scene... The movie was full of parts taken from other Star Wars movies, so why not copy his "saviour of the day" scene in A New Hope? The attack of the rebellion (or resistance or whatever) on Death Star v3.0 is stalling, everything seems to be lost, so Han and Chewie save the day by going BANZAI and do a kamikaze on the energy core (say hello to Return of the Jedi!). Just before they hit it they have a short, but heartwarming and -breaking dialogue in the cockpit saying goodbye. That would have been a great exit for Han Solo, but we got THIS instead. No mourning, no hero's funeral scene, instead we see Chewie in the Falcon with a new pilot (Rey) like him saying "Han? WHO?".
And what the hell happened in the last three decades? What is the resistance (got some info in the scroll text in the beginning, but that's it), are they co-existing with the rebellion, the new republic, why does Leia know about Snoke, what is her role in the republic (if she has any at all), and so on. Episodes VIII and IX will have the incredible task not only to move on the new story, they will also tell a bit or even a lot about the history since the Endor battle because JJA and Larry Kasdan simply ignored that history.
And there are a LOT more things wrong with this movie, but it is still entertaining and alright in the end.