French Steam Lawsuit

Valve is once again heading to court to defend its subscriber agreement, as this report (in French) describes a suit by a French consumer rights group over aspects of their terms of service. PC Gamer points the way to a translation by redditor Silencement of key points in the case:

  • Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.
  • Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.
  • Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.
  • It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.
  • Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.
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34 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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34.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 20, 2015, 21:02
Dev
34.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 20, 2015, 21:02
Dec 20, 2015, 21:02
Dev
 
Santa Claus wrote on Dec 19, 2015, 19:30:
QA isn't some magical practice that catches all bugs, you don't just throw money and bodies at everything to solve a problem and sometimes problems require solutions that take time. Report the bugs and they will fix them, enough fucking whining.
Bugs have been and continually are reported. Sometimes they don't fix them. Sometimes they are so extreme, you know they didn't test it before releasing it.
33.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 19, 2015, 19:30
33.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 19, 2015, 19:30
Dec 19, 2015, 19:30
 
QA isn't some magical practice that catches all bugs, you don't just throw money and bodies at everything to solve a problem and sometimes problems require solutions that take time. Report the bugs and they will fix them, enough fucking whining.
32.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 19, 2015, 12:45
Dev
32.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 19, 2015, 12:45
Dec 19, 2015, 12:45
Dev
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 17:22:
Dev wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 17:06:
In regards to the streaming thing... Valve development has always been VERY spotty. You can see patch history of their games, and their client, etc. Bugs that were fixed in L4D1 were rebroken in L4D2, and things got "fixed" half a dozen times (like falling through elevator). Some exploits known about for years never fixed, etc.
Part of it is the whole "I'm bored, going to wheel my desk over here and stop patchwork for while" thing they have going on.

So you are saying a company that has more than a billion $ worth of actual money does not employ QA procedures before they push out an official steam client update?

Basically, yeah. Q&A is boring, so who wants to wheel desks over to Q&A? No managers there, so no one to tell them they have to Q&A. Q&A and release schedules are something they suck at, because... flat management structure. I'm sure they do a minimal amount of Q&A, but if you keep up with change logs on steam client, L4D, TF2, DOTA, etc you'd see how many times they patch stuff and repatch it, and break stuff that's already fixed, etc. Another thing I've seen, they'll claim they fixed something couple times, then end up just disabling that entire feature so they don't have to spend more time fixing it (see many console commands disabled over the years).
When stuff gets too boring, they abandon it for a while or try and give the workload to someone else (like greenlight was done so they could get out of the boring job of playing games to see if they should be on steam, they even said that on the news release).

Flat management structure is great for a lot of things, including many I love valve for, but not for this kinda stuff.
31.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 19, 2015, 12:31
31.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 19, 2015, 12:31
Dec 19, 2015, 12:31
 
NKD wrote on Dec 19, 2015, 05:36:
CJ_Parker wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 20:20:

First, many people are still hoarders and collectors so -no- not everyone will use the used game market. There will still be many people who will buy games to keep them.

I already addressed that. If you're a collector, buy it at release to play it when its new, then sell it, then rebuy later when the "used market" saturates and it becomes nearly free due to good supply and zero demand. The only thing your library would be missing is very recent games.

There is no reason anyone would buy "New" over "Used" when the products are identical but one is significantly cheaper. The only people who buy new would be very impatient people who want to play on launch. By week 2, the used market should be sufficiently stocked for most games to keep everyone in used copies for life.

Well, there are and always will be enough sheeple to fleece. Just look around here where everyone and their dawg is always tripping over themselves to pick up the latest AAA garbage and how everyone MUST have the game five minutes before the other guy to be the cooler kid.

There must still be more than enough new game release day/preorder buyers or the industry would already be in deep shit. Not everyone is a cheapskate and waiting for sales. And not everyone would wait for used game sales, especially if the discount is rather minimal due to the supply and demand thing I mentioned before (small number of used game sellers vs. high demand from buyers = inflated used game prices barely below full price ... at least for popular new releases).
30.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 19, 2015, 10:52
30.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 19, 2015, 10:52
Dec 19, 2015, 10:52
 
descender wrote on Dec 19, 2015, 10:30:
You could just take yourself off the beta channel and then it wouldn't break your shit all the time, since you can't or don't want to handle that (not much of a pc gamer eh?).

Temporarily reversed a previous change to the bitrate of games running below 60 FPS, due to an adverse impact on network latency

Or maybe they fixed it already.

It started with the official steam client versions from dec 14 and official steamlink firmware 406 as I said, repeatedly... you can not revert to earlier versions and nothing they enabled in the beta since then made my streaming perf any worse or better. You also can't prevent auto updating in steamlink, it pushes you to 406. Controller problems I know very well are not in the non-beta branch.. and I tried every beta since then to find how the hell to fix my streaming issue, since believe it or not, I want to use a streaming device to stream stuff...

Posted logs made after that latest beta updates there btw..
http://steamcommunity.com/app/353380/discussions/0/487877107143828631/

And here is someone else with the exact same problem (very large frame-drops)
http://steamcommunity.com/app/353380/discussions/0/487877107144594365/

This comment was edited on Dec 19, 2015, 10:59.
Avatar 54727
29.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 19, 2015, 10:30
29.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 19, 2015, 10:30
Dec 19, 2015, 10:30
 
You could just take yourself off the beta channel and then it wouldn't break your shit all the time, since you can't or don't want to handle that (not much of a pc gamer eh?).

Temporarily reversed a previous change to the bitrate of games running below 60 FPS, due to an adverse impact on network latency

Or maybe they fixed it already.
Avatar 56185
28.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 19, 2015, 08:03
28.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 19, 2015, 08:03
Dec 19, 2015, 08:03
 
Suppa7 wrote on Dec 19, 2015, 03:10:
Slashman wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 23:46:
Lastly, why the hell would people even want to bother with this when digital games are very reasonably discounted all the time?

The bottom line is that people like to make a bunch of noise about insignificant crap and call it a noble crusade.

The bottom line is you're unaware of the degree of DRM and locked down nature of modern games compared to the 90's, the fact you'd say this means you're idiotic.

The bottom line is you don't know me and I've been PC gaming since the 80s.

But you know there are always people like you who want to impress everyone else with crap talk about how tragic it is that you can't give a game to your grandchildren because of Steam and how Steam is a huge conspiracy against humanity yadda yadda yadda.

I've seen it time after time in every gaming forum and it remains as pointless now as it ever was. Because most of you people don't even freaking know how Steam actually works. And the shit that you keep blaming them for is, in fact, mostly all up to the developer and not Valve. Steam is only DRM when a developer decides to MAKE it be DRM.

Of course, I don't expect you to actually do any research into the subject. I expect that you'll keep beating your chest about how very righteous your first world cause is. And you'll break your own arm off patting yourself on the back over all the the people you're saving from themselves. Except that they just don't frigging care and only want to play their games and move the hell on with their lives.
27.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 19, 2015, 05:36
NKD
27.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 19, 2015, 05:36
Dec 19, 2015, 05:36
NKD
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 20:20:

First, many people are still hoarders and collectors so -no- not everyone will use the used game market. There will still be many people who will buy games to keep them.

I already addressed that. If you're a collector, buy it at release to play it when its new, then sell it, then rebuy later when the "used market" saturates and it becomes nearly free due to good supply and zero demand. The only thing your library would be missing is very recent games.

There is no reason anyone would buy "New" over "Used" when the products are identical but one is significantly cheaper. The only people who buy new would be very impatient people who want to play on launch. By week 2, the used market should be sufficiently stocked for most games to keep everyone in used copies for life.
Avatar 43041
26.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 19, 2015, 03:40
26.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 19, 2015, 03:40
Dec 19, 2015, 03:40
 
beigemore wrote on Dec 19, 2015, 01:02:
eRe4s3r wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 12:39:
Personally, I would be more happy if steam would stop FUCKING BREAKING MY STREAMING and CONTROLLER

If it ain't working next year I am suing their asses. They sold me a product (Steamlink + Controller) that worked flawlessly when I got it both, and now, a few months later I can't stream shit without lagspikes that they introduced dec 14 (yes, the official non beta update) and I can't use the controllers full feature set thanks to their retarded developers breaking templates in dec 16 and dec 17 (where they claimed to fix it, but they made it FAR worse) beta patch

Whats the fucking point of a streaming solution that you can't use to stream because every patch steam puts out makes it run fucking WORSE. (remember, it worked flawlessly before!)

I am pretty close to throwing this shit away. Not the controller mind you, it's decent wired to a PC, but streaming doesn't work currently, neither does the controller when streaming since you can't assign templates to anything. YAY, just when I have a vacation. If this is broken through to new year I am going mental on their asses. I have a sword, and I know how to find their HQ

It's always an excellent idea to talk about future lawsuits you plan on bringing.

That, or going to their HQ with my 2handed battle sword...
Avatar 54727
25.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 19, 2015, 03:10
25.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 19, 2015, 03:10
Dec 19, 2015, 03:10
 
Slashman wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 23:46:
Lastly, why the hell would people even want to bother with this when digital games are very reasonably discounted all the time?

The bottom line is that people like to make a bunch of noise about insignificant crap and call it a noble crusade.

The bottom line is you're unaware of the degree of DRM and locked down nature of modern games compared to the 90's, the fact you'd say this means you're idiotic.
24.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 19, 2015, 01:02
24.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 19, 2015, 01:02
Dec 19, 2015, 01:02
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 12:39:
Personally, I would be more happy if steam would stop FUCKING BREAKING MY STREAMING and CONTROLLER

If it ain't working next year I am suing their asses. They sold me a product (Steamlink + Controller) that worked flawlessly when I got it both, and now, a few months later I can't stream shit without lagspikes that they introduced dec 14 (yes, the official non beta update) and I can't use the controllers full feature set thanks to their retarded developers breaking templates in dec 16 and dec 17 (where they claimed to fix it, but they made it FAR worse) beta patch

Whats the fucking point of a streaming solution that you can't use to stream because every patch steam puts out makes it run fucking WORSE. (remember, it worked flawlessly before!)

I am pretty close to throwing this shit away. Not the controller mind you, it's decent wired to a PC, but streaming doesn't work currently, neither does the controller when streaming since you can't assign templates to anything. YAY, just when I have a vacation. If this is broken through to new year I am going mental on their asses. I have a sword, and I know how to find their HQ

It's always an excellent idea to talk about future lawsuits you plan on bringing.
23.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 18, 2015, 23:46
23.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 18, 2015, 23:46
Dec 18, 2015, 23:46
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 20:20:

No it would not happen that way. He has put some decent effort into it but his reasoning is still flawed.

First, many people are still hoarders and collectors so -no- not everyone will use the used game market. There will still be many people who will buy games to keep them.

Secondly, supply and demand. It is impossible that a relatively small number of copies will circulate between millions of people. This would drive or keep the prices up so that many people would just buy new instead of being ripped off by a random n00b.

Thirdly, I don't know about a 30% cut but there would definitely be a way for Valve and the publishers/developers to earn a few % from each used game sale (transaction). They *might* even end up making more money that way than from regular sales because the sheer number of transactions might more than make up for the people you lose to the used market.

Eventually, I believe that the used market can not be much bigger than the market of people waiting for sales or using key sites. It's the cheapskate segment and it will always be limited.

There is a flaw in YOUR argument as well. There is no difference between a used digital product and a brand new one. That alone makes people do things like wait for sales with big discounts.

The difference with the ability to sell 'used' digital products is that now those people won't need to wait and will simply buy from people who want to sell and move on. There is no way you can tell me that is not going to have a hard and direct effect on the market. You're talking about a non-degradable and infinite product.

Also, what numbers do you have to backup your statement that 'many' people are hoarders in the manner you claim?

In addition, Valve taking a cut of second hand sales may be good for valve but how good is it for the small developer? If that cut has to be split, it is going to have to be a significant cut, which then makes the whole reselling proposition pointless as well as hurtful for the developer.

Lastly, why the hell would people even want to bother with this when digital games are very reasonably discounted all the time?

The bottom line is that people like to make a bunch of noise about insignificant crap and call it a noble crusade.
22.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 18, 2015, 23:13
22.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 18, 2015, 23:13
Dec 18, 2015, 23:13
 
NKD wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 14:29:
Creston wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 12:13:
. Point 1, eh...

Free-for-all resale of digital licenses isn't something I want. It's actually kind of a scary idea. Not because I don't think it would be cool, but because none of us would like what the industry does to compensate for the fact that it would kill their current sale numbers.

Right now, used game resale is kept in check by the fact that it's kind of a pain in the ass. You either deal with a middleman that rapes you like Gamestop, or you sell direct to other users and have to package your own shit, send it off, blah blah, take a loss on shipping and so forth. Not long and the game isn't even worth selling because the price you can get for it isn't worth the hassle.These factors all keep it from being too disruptive, but, it's still disruptive. One of the primary reason we have so much DLC and Season Pass crap is due to game resale. People aren't going to be so eager to get rid of that game knowing that more content is coming down the line.

Now, let's imagine you could do free-for-all resale of your digital titles on Steam. Why would you ever, ever, EVER buy new unless you were literally forced due to a lack of available used copies? Developers would only ever sell enough copies to satisfy concurrent demand, and then re-circulation of used copies would ensure they never see another copy sold. So, developers would then focus on shipping titles where concurrent demand is high, or peaks for a long period of time, or can be somehow manipulated. Episodic content releases that require the previous episodes be installed might be one thing. Especially if the gaps between episodes are short enough.

And what about titles where concurrent demand is low like small cheap indie games with a single player experience 4-6 hours in length? You might as well not even create these any more, because the short length and low replay-ability ensures that a very small number of copies recirculating quickly is enough to sate demand. Even if they sell it for $3-4, and it's a high quality experience, there is no reason to keep it in your inventory. None.

In general, there would be no reason to keep an extensive Steam library. Why would you? You're literally pissing away money because you can always re-buy that title later on, probably for cheaper than you sold it for. Demand for games eventually bottoms out, and once there is a pool of used copies that will never be depleted, Supply & Demand will dictate that the price for such a game bottoms out as well.

I see two scenarios for buying habits that would arise:

A) Buy new, rip thru the game, resell quickly for maximum value, rebuy later on when price bottoms out to add to your Steam library.

B) Never buy new. Always wait for price to bottom out and then buy.

Neither of these scenarios are compatible with the current gaming business model. Companies would be unable to make money under these conditions.

Well, that's not really our problem, but publishers will find a way to get their money out of us. They aren't simply going to lay off 90% of their employees and go back to making low budget games. They'll avoid selling on platforms that allow resale where possible. They'll lock content behind account systems and other mechanisms that discourage resale. They may even pull out of countries where they are legally mandated to allow resale. They'll needlessly pad out their titles and rely on psychologically addictive gameplay loops rather than actual good games. I'm sure we can all think of a lot of other good ways to milk consumers for money. A lot of these ideas are already being used, they'd just be used a lot more.

So yeah, at the end of the day gamers have shown they have very little in the way of balls when it comes to putting their foot down on exploitative business models. So whatever way the industry would adjust to widespread digital resale, people would just bend over and take it. And we'd probably end up worse off than before.

In addition you would never see summer sales or discounts on games since everyone and their mom would buy Game A at 80% off in bulk then attempt to resale.
Avatar 21440
21.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 18, 2015, 20:54
21.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 18, 2015, 20:54
Dec 18, 2015, 20:54
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 18:21:
I don't care if this is a 1 in a million problem or not. It's my vacation and shit isn't working that was working before. Templates broken, streaming now suddenly has random lag spikes.

Unless you can tell me a magic solution to THAT I doubt you have an idea how much this can piss someone off..

Let me reiterate. It's my vacation so the solution to problems Valve caused involve VALVE doing shit, not me.

At least you have the latest tech gear from a company known for its great tech support.
I suggest putting it down, enjoy your vacation and come back to it in a month or two when the dust settles or half life 3 comes out, whichever comes first.
Avatar 58135
20.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 18, 2015, 20:20
20.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 18, 2015, 20:20
Dec 18, 2015, 20:20
 
HoSpanky wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 18:07:
NKD, I will honestly say I've never thought about the reselling of games that way, and I doubt the people who are fighting for it think about it that way either.

I would rather NOT be able to resell my digital content than see the scenario you've put down there, which is EXACTLY what *would* happen.

No it would not happen that way. He has put some decent effort into it but his reasoning is still flawed.

First, many people are still hoarders and collectors so -no- not everyone will use the used game market. There will still be many people who will buy games to keep them.

Secondly, supply and demand. It is impossible that a relatively small number of copies will circulate between millions of people. This would drive or keep the prices up so that many people would just buy new instead of being ripped off by a random n00b.

Thirdly, I don't know about a 30% cut but there would definitely be a way for Valve and the publishers/developers to earn a few % from each used game sale (transaction). They *might* even end up making more money that way than from regular sales because the sheer number of transactions might more than make up for the people you lose to the used market.

Eventually, I believe that the used market can not be much bigger than the market of people waiting for sales or using key sites. It's the cheapskate segment and it will always be limited.
19.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 18, 2015, 18:21
19.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 18, 2015, 18:21
Dec 18, 2015, 18:21
 
I don't care if this is a 1 in a million problem or not. It's my vacation and shit isn't working that was working before. Templates broken, streaming now suddenly has random lag spikes.

Unless you can tell me a magic solution to THAT I doubt you have an idea how much this can piss someone off..

Let me reiterate. It's my vacation so the solution to problems Valve caused involve VALVE doing shit, not me.
Avatar 54727
18.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 18, 2015, 18:07
18.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 18, 2015, 18:07
Dec 18, 2015, 18:07
 
NKD, I will honestly say I've never thought about the reselling of games that way, and I doubt the people who are fighting for it think about it that way either.

I would rather NOT be able to resell my digital content than see the scenario you've put down there, which is EXACTLY what *would* happen.
Avatar 15603
17.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 18, 2015, 17:57
17.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 18, 2015, 17:57
Dec 18, 2015, 17:57
 
Look how ready you were to give up on the controller before someone talked you off the ledge... it's just a patch, it happens. You don't have to make it out to be the end of the world every time you run into a little snag though. It's not a widespread problem so it must be something to do with your specific configuration. The steam forums are full of suggestions for fixing your lag spikes, which I imagine that you haven't bothered reading up on based on our controller conversation.

When someone posts negatively about everything and anything, they aren't "right" when you have a tiny problem, they just want to wave their finger in your face because they are assholes. There is nothing wrong with link or the controller, streaming isn't "stupid" because he doesn't have a use for it... why would you listen to someone like that at all?
Avatar 56185
16.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 18, 2015, 17:22
16.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 18, 2015, 17:22
Dec 18, 2015, 17:22
 
Dev wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 17:06:
In regards to the streaming thing... Valve development has always been VERY spotty. You can see patch history of their games, and their client, etc. Bugs that were fixed in L4D1 were rebroken in L4D2, and things got "fixed" half a dozen times (like falling through elevator). Some exploits known about for years never fixed, etc.
Part of it is the whole "I'm bored, going to wheel my desk over here and stop patchwork for while" thing they have going on.

So you are saying a company that has more than a billion $ worth of actual money does not employ QA procedures before they push out an official steam client update?
Avatar 54727
15.
 
Re: French Steam Lawsuit
Dec 18, 2015, 17:16
15.
Re: French Steam Lawsuit Dec 18, 2015, 17:16
Dec 18, 2015, 17:16
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 16:51:
eRe4s3r wrote on Dec 18, 2015, 12:39:
Personally, I would be more happy if steam would stop FUCKING BREAKING MY STREAMING and CONTROLLER

If it ain't working next year I am suing their asses. They sold me a product (Steamlink + Controller) that worked flawlessly when I got it both, and now, a few months later I can't stream shit without lagspikes that they introduced dec 14 (yes, the official non beta update) and I can't use the controllers full feature set thanks to their retarded developers breaking templates in dec 16 and dec 17 (where they claimed to fix it, but they made it FAR worse) beta patch

Whats the fucking point of a streaming solution that you can't use to stream because every patch steam puts out makes it run fucking WORSE. (remember, it worked flawlessly before!)

I am pretty close to throwing this shit away. Not the controller mind you, it's decent wired to a PC, but streaming doesn't work currently, neither does the controller when streaming since you can't assign templates to anything. YAY, just when I have a vacation. If this is broken through to new year I am going mental on their asses. I have a sword, and I know how to find their HQ

You see I could have told you all that beforehand and streaming is retarded anyway so why even bother? You could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if you would simply listen to wise, balanced and intelligent people like me but noooo... you n00b had to go and buy the latest hyped garbage, of course. Well, then... this is what you get for not listening to wise old uncle CJ! :o

Can't argue with that But the real joke is that streaming wasn't retarded when I bought it, it worked fine, flawlessly, 60fps, with only 10ms delay! In the past month steam pushed out 3 updates (controller firmware, steamlink firmware and Steam Client update from 14th december, and since then I can neither use my controller nor stream correctly. Now I have still 60fps, but lag-spikes beyond 10 seconds and 28ms delay (like.. HOW.. WHY?)

Urgh... Yes, yes.. you were right.. but hindsight is what it is..
Avatar 54727
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