theglaze wrote on Dec 17, 2015, 00:18:

Nucas wrote on Dec 16, 2015, 19:59:
i'm trying to think of any time, ever, that a "fan community" hasn't been pissed about something they're used to changing.

or really just any human, anywhere. at any time.

Change is scary! Example:

Valve-run servers are now the most widely accepted way to play the game, and every time the map ends an automatic vote pops up for players to vote on the next map. Guess what maps wins +50% of the time?

de_dust2

Even if the current map is dust2, it usually wins the vote again despite a majority of users wishing to play another map.

So dust2 loads again, about +60% of the server clears out, and 1 to 4 mins later the server is full again. And when the map ends, another vote comes up. Guess what map wins +50% of the time?

de_dust2

60% of the server clears out. People join again because in casual modes a player CANNOT de-select any particular map. And the de_dust2 train with a minority vote keeps choo-chooing along...

I understand the natural human instinct to avoid change, especially when learning a new game. But map voting occurs hundreds (thousands?) of times a minute across all Valve servers, and it's obvious to anyone who stays in a server, the community DOESN'T know what's best for itself.

And apparently the programmers administering CSGO don't know either.

From what I've seen Dust 2 does tend to get the majority of the votes even if you add up all of the other votes together. It really doesn't take much to get people to switch it up usually either. Just some guy yelling "vote mirage!" right away tends to do it.

Nucas wrote on Dec 16, 2015, 19:59:
i'm trying to think of any time, ever, that a "fan community" hasn't been pissed about something they're used to changing.

or really just any human, anywhere. at any time.

Change is scary! Example:

Valve-run servers are now the most widely accepted way to play the game, and every time the map ends an automatic vote pops up for players to vote on the next map. Guess what maps wins +50% of the time?

de_dust2

Even if the current map is dust2, it usually wins the vote again despite a majority of users wishing to play another map.

So dust2 loads again, about +60% of the server clears out, and 1 to 4 mins later the server is full again. And when the map ends, another vote comes up. Guess what map wins +50% of the time?

de_dust2

60% of the server clears out. People join again because in casual modes a player CANNOT de-select any particular map. And the de_dust2 train with a minority vote keeps choo-chooing along...

I understand the natural human instinct to avoid change, especially when learning a new game. But map voting occurs hundreds (thousands?) of times a minute across all Valve servers, and it's obvious to anyone who stays in a server, the community DOESN'T know what's best for itself.

And apparently the programmers administering CSGO don't know either.

i'm trying to think of any time, ever, that a "fan community" hasn't been pissed about something they're used to changing.

or really just any human, anywhere. at any time.

loomy wrote on Dec 16, 2015, 19:03:

edaciousx wrote on Dec 16, 2015, 17:52:
I mean, what do you want from them? To not try to make the game better?

yes. these are not the people who made cs. these are not the people who made cs a success. cs gameplay has matured into a very static state over almost 20 years of real world usage. behind no closed doors should changes be made. this was like changing the rules of chess. cs is that significant to electronic gaming.

The original creators haven't been involved with Counter-Strike since 2001.
Do you think changes haven't been made since then? You realize this is the fourth game right? And those 4 had/have been constantly changing right?

(also CS is just over 16, not quite 20 yet, I know you said "almost" though)

This comment was edited on Dec 16, 2015, 19:32.

edaciousx wrote on Dec 16, 2015, 17:52:

theglaze wrote on Dec 16, 2015, 14:28:
Well it certainly confirms the haphazard approach Valve takes to CSGO tweaks: a bunch of middle-rung Nova skilled programmers relying on data crunching to guide code changes that manipulate fundamentals to the game, all without fully thinking through the actual impact to gameplay and player experience.

CSGO Blog wrote:
For one thing, increasing inaccuracy while spraying also comes with reduced accuracy for all forms of firing.

Morons..

Kind of harsh words. at least they changed it back and admitted they made a mistake. I mean, what do you want from them? To not try to make the game better?

Yes, it is harsh.

Having seen the change log for Battlefield games or MOBA's which are considerably more complex than CSGO, the developers share with the community what they changed and by how much. But with Valve and CSGO it's all secret witchcraft, it forces the community to attempt to decrypt what the hell changed. Even in this official blog post, they reference a user's reddit thread to help explain to us why their update was stupid...

To me, it appears to be an unprofessional approach that disrespects a loyal userbase that has now grown to 9.2m CSGOers.

Speaking of all those users, the beefing and nerfing of weapons directly affects values of weapon skins because it changes the consumers perceived value, adding volatility to the market. And guess who profits from all that activity.

edaciousx wrote on Dec 16, 2015, 17:52:
I mean, what do you want from them? To not try to make the game better?

yes. these are not the people who made cs. these are not the people who made cs a success. cs gameplay has matured into a very static state over almost 20 years of real world usage. behind no closed doors should changes be made. this was like changing the rules of chess. cs is that significant to electronic gaming.

if they want to test changes, they can do it on a beta version in public for a year.

theglaze wrote on Dec 16, 2015, 14:28:
Well it certainly confirms the haphazard approach Valve takes to CSGO tweaks: a bunch of middle-rung Nova skilled programmers relying on data crunching to guide code changes that manipulate fundamentals to the game, all without fully thinking through the actual impact to gameplay and player experience.

CSGO Blog wrote:
For one thing, increasing inaccuracy while spraying also comes with reduced accuracy for all forms of firing.

Morons..

Kind of harsh words. at least they changed it back and admitted they made a mistake. I mean, what do you want from them? To not try to make the game better?

This is something that lots of games fail on.

Right now i'm playing Mechwarrior Online heavily and it blows my mind when they tweak weapons that they change massive values and lots of them instead of small progressive tweaks over time.

Take the most popular gun, tweak is slightly till the usage of it drops slightly because it's on par with the rest.

Well it certainly confirms the haphazard approach Valve takes to CSGO tweaks: a bunch of middle-rung Nova skilled programmers relying on data crunching to guide code changes that manipulate fundamentals to the game, all without fully thinking through the actual impact to gameplay and player experience.

CSGO Blog wrote:
For one thing, increasing inaccuracy while spraying also comes with reduced accuracy for all forms of firing.

Morons..

I was kind of frustrated with the patch, but the new pistol (r8) distracted me enough that I didn't notice some of the accuracy changes as much, other than I felt way less accurate and having to spray more.

I'll have to check out the new patch.

In regards to possibly having a beta channel for testing, I think they have it available to them, but they apparently haven't been using it (at least widely)

Well, this game is fairly new so I guess they're still working out their processes.

deleted

I know Valve has a test channel for Dota 2, so do they not have one for CS:GO? Changes to a competitive game like this should always be playtested by an active section of the community before being rolled out to live.