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33.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 5, 2015, 15:57
Kxmode
 
33.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 5, 2015, 15:57
Sep 5, 2015, 15:57
 Kxmode
 
LurkerLito wrote on Sep 5, 2015, 10:45:
And that's been the biggest problem with SC in general. That's really the main law I want the SEC to pass regarding crowdfunded projects. Once a crowdfunded project has successfully been funded, no more crowdfunding can continue through the use of adding additional content or features to the project for additional funds.

That was #3 on my list of crowdfunding laws I would like to see enacted. "3. Companies would be required to tell backers the minimum they need to make their game and anything over that is considered bonus. This baseline helps backers know how much the project needs in order to become 100% crowdfunded. This minimum also provides an ethical obligation to either stop crowdfunding or let backers know that the project as scoped is now 100% fully funded." It's all about being upfront with Backers.
"Listen, Peter... with great horsepower comes... the sickest drifts..." - source
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32.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 5, 2015, 10:45
32.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 5, 2015, 10:45
Sep 5, 2015, 10:45
 
harlock wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 18:32:
this is complete bullshit... kickstarter only lasts a month... these assholes have been crowdfunding FOR YEARS NOW..
And that's been the biggest problem with SC in general. That's really the main law I want the SEC to pass regarding crowdfunded projects. Once a crowdfunded project has successfully been funded, no more crowdfunding can continue through the use of adding additional content or features to the project for additional funds. The only way a game like SC could go from Vision 1.0 to use Derek Smart's terminology, to Vision 2.0, is to refund every cent to all backers and redo the crowdfunding from scratch. A law like this would still let them continue to generate funds by selling merchandise like t-shirts, etc... or even do subscriptions to forums and video channels if they wanted. It would only stop new funding for new features or content so a project can stay true to the original crowdfunded goals.

if anything, it will be the poster child for dumbass gamers who got swindled hardcore

anyone with half a brain sees it as a scam - thats not new, they been around forever, and anytime there is a new platform for moving money, there will be a scam involved sooner or later..
Yes it will be that to, but I don't think it changes that it will still most likely hurt crowdfunding especially in the game projects area.
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31.
 
Re: Kxmode, Like chocolate but better.
Sep 4, 2015, 22:45
Kxmode
 
31.
Re: Kxmode, Like chocolate but better. Sep 4, 2015, 22:45
Sep 4, 2015, 22:45
 Kxmode
 
Creston wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 21:19:
If we get laws that go to the extent to completely safeguard idiots from spending thousands of dollars on pictures of pretty spaceships, the entire crowdfunding platform will just die off, because no dev would want to take on money that comes with such conditions.

The difficulty with crowdfunding is someone could spend a month researching the project and still not know if everything is on the up and up until much later. This is precisely what happened to me. I did my due diligence before backing. I researched crowdfunding and Star Citizen for a month and for 18 months after backing continued buying ships. I was a White Knight backer based entirely on what Chris said about the projected costs, length, and scope. All of which proved untrue.

Safeguards and laws should be designed to protect both crowdfunders and companies from legal and financial problems.

For example.

1. Companies would no longer be able to have competing TOS agreements under one project. i.e. Kickstarter TOS versus CIG TOS. Every backer would benefit from one TOS. More than likely Kickstarter would need to eliminate their TOS and the company would be required to provide theirs.

2. Companies would be required to provide accurate time lines for delivery with an allowed margin of error of 5%. If they know they're building a AAA-rated game in 5 years then they need to tell potential backers that date on the campaign page.

3. Companies would be required to tell backers the minimum they need to make their game and anything over that is considered bonus. This baseline helps backers know how much the project needs in order to become 100% crowdfunded. This minimum also provides an ethical obligation to either stop crowdfunding or let backers know that the project as scoped is now 100% fully funded.

4. Companies have to provide a guaranteed cut-off date that legally supersedes the TOS. If this date is reached and products and/or rewards have not been received a backer has the right to request a refund for any reason.

5. Quality of product must be within 10-15% of stated project goals. This doesn't obligate the company for a 100% perfect product but it also prevents them from producing crap. This also forces companies not to over promise and under deliver.

6. Management, marketing and PR folks would no longer be allowed to make misleading statements about costs, timelines and scope for crowdfunded projects. This protects them from future legal issues. It also protects backers from "forward looking statements".

7. The company is required to hire qualified staff for crowdfunded projects. Nepotism is fine as long as relatives have the credentials to do the job. If the company wants to engage in unqualified nepotism on internal project that's fine as long as backers aren't paying for it.

8. Backer money can not be used to produce excessively expensive marketing materials. The intended purpose of backer money is to produce the product.

9. Every 2 years the company must provide financial reports to backers (making it public would be a gray topic) for the project they backed showing how much money the project received, how much was spent, where the money was spent, and how much money remains. Reasonable projections for additional income from future backers would also be included on the report. Let me be clear. This is not the company's finances. This would strictly be the project's finances. In rare cases where a company's existence is entirely crowdfunded - like in the case of CIG - then the report would need to include finances from both the company and project since both are part and parcel.

Anyhow this is an example of the type of crowdfunding laws Backers could be protected by. These would also weed out the charlatans and only keep those who are legit.

This comment was edited on Sep 4, 2015, 23:34.
"Listen, Peter... with great horsepower comes... the sickest drifts..." - source
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30.
 
Re: Kxmode, Like chocolate but better.
Sep 4, 2015, 22:03
Kxmode
 
30.
Re: Kxmode, Like chocolate but better. Sep 4, 2015, 22:03
Sep 4, 2015, 22:03
 Kxmode
 
RedEye9 wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 16:58:
Kxmode, Please please please continue doing exactly what your doing.
I'm pretty sure the government has the right to make laws that protect the innocent.
The government already does it with food, drugs, pollution and maybe more.

If ya'll have not read this, I recommend it.
good stuff
Written by a lawyer, it's in common English and explains kickstarter liabilities using Molyneux’s GODUS game as the test subject.

I read that amazing op-ed the other day.

The person leading the charge is Derek. He's the one with the contacts, the leads and the resources... not to mention the fortitude and legal council. But I will try to do what I can. We just need to keeping poking CIG until everyone - especially backers - can understand what's going with the project financially.

#BlackKnightsMatter
"Listen, Peter... with great horsepower comes... the sickest drifts..." - source
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29.
 
Re: Kxmode, Like chocolate but better.
Sep 4, 2015, 21:19
29.
Re: Kxmode, Like chocolate but better. Sep 4, 2015, 21:19
Sep 4, 2015, 21:19
 
RedEye9 wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 16:58:
If ya'll have not read this, I recommend it.
good stuff
Written by a lawyer, it's in common English and explains kickstarter liabilities using Molyneux’s GODUS game as the test subject.

If we get laws that go to the extent to completely safeguard idiots from spending thousands of dollars on pictures of pretty spaceships, the entire crowdfunding platform will just die off, because no dev would want to take on money that comes with such conditions.

Plenty of crowdfunded games have done just fine, and who knows, SC may still do just fine. It seems doubtful, but it's possible. But even if it tanks and burns, nobody forced people to give tens of thousands of dollars to a guy for fucking PICTURES OF SPACESHIPS. Trying to create laws to 'safeguard' against retardery like that is just ridiculous.

This comment was edited on Sep 4, 2015, 21:42.
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28.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 18:32
28.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 18:32
Sep 4, 2015, 18:32
 
LurkerLito wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 09:44:
then this project will become the poster child reason for not supporting crowdfunding and it will be picked up by mainstream media. That will most likely hurt all future crowdfunded projects.

this is complete bullshit... kickstarter only lasts a month... these assholes have been crowdfunding FOR YEARS NOW..

if anything, it will be the poster child for dumbass gamers who got swindled hardcore

anyone with half a brain sees it as a scam - thats not new, they been around forever, and anytime there is a new platform for moving money, there will be a scam involved sooner or later..
27.
 
Kxmode, Like chocolate but better.
Sep 4, 2015, 16:58
27.
Kxmode, Like chocolate but better. Sep 4, 2015, 16:58
Sep 4, 2015, 16:58
 

Kxmode, Please please please continue doing exactly what your doing.
I'm pretty sure the government has the right to make laws that protect the innocent.
The government already does it with food, drugs, pollution and maybe more.

If ya'll have not read this, I recommend it.
good stuff
Written by a lawyer, it's in common English and explains kickstarter liabilities using Molyneux’s GODUS game as the test subject.
“We’ve arranged a society on science and technology in which nobody understands anything about science and technology, and this combustible mixture of ignorance and power sooner or later is going to blow up in our faces." Carl Sagan
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26.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 14:52
26.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 14:52
Sep 4, 2015, 14:52
 
Kxmode wrote on Sep 3, 2015, 22:57:
I am now thoroughly convinced Star Citizen is a scam. How? Three main factors...

It's not a scam. It's just a terribly mismanaged project.

The absolute LEAST Cloud Imperium can do to negate growing criticism is to have independent auditors go through their finances going back to the Kickstarter launch. This report should be public record....

... Backers aren't accredited investors so that means CIG isn't required by the SEC to provide any financial reports.

You already answered yourself there. If I'm Chris Roberts, I'm not opening books for nobody. Why subject yourself to a witch hunt?

2. Crowdfunded companies exist in this weird blend between an organization who can sell virtual items and ships as "pledge rewards" but without the liabilities of actual products.

Errr. This "blend" you're talking about is called the real world. Maybe you live in China or something, but in the free world, you're allowed to sell whatever you want to sell, and if people want to pay you for that, great.

If I want to charge people $50 for me to spit in their soup, and they're willing to pay me for it, awesome. And if I want to do so virtually, and just make pretty artwork of me spitting in their soup, and people want to pay me for it, great. As long as I'm upfront that all I'm giving you is a piece of artwork about me spitting in your soup, the law couldn't give two shits.

So because CIG exists like this they can operate with absolute impunity and do anything they want as long as they make it appear like they're "working" on the product. CIG could perpetually crowdfund Star Citizen for the next 10 years and this would be legal because there are no official laws that say they can't.

Well duh. Of course not. What kind of laws do you imagine there should be? PEOPLE VOLUNTARILY GIVE THE GUY MONEY FOR PRETTY PICTURES OF SPACE SHIPS. He's not blackmailing them or forcing them or anything. He says "Here's a picture of a pretty spaceship. It's limited! Give me $400 and at some point maybe you'll be able to 'fly' this pretty 'spaceship' in this persistent 'universe' that I'm creating." And the money keeps coming in from people with either a lot of disposable income or very poor judgment with regards to the value of money. Either way, none of that is illegal.

This is why laws need to be passed to protect consumers from crowdfunding fraud, first and foremost.

No. We need laws to keep the likes of Comcast raping its customers who have no choice but to deal with Comcast due to Comcast's monopoly in their area. We need zero laws to deal with companies that sell pretend items for pretend universes and get money from people who are insane enough to plonk down massive bundles of cash for it.

There should never be laws to try to stop stupid people from being stupid because once we start there, it'll never end.

Also dude, you got your refund. They were nice enough to give you back every single dime you ever gave them. You'd think you'd stop with this inane crusade of yours, even if only as a "Hey, thanks for giving me back all the money that I stupidly gave you for pictures of pretty spaceships."

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25.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 14:17
25.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 14:17
Sep 4, 2015, 14:17
 
Cutter wrote on Sep 3, 2015, 20:08:
After that comes the biggie - planetside exploration, which Roberts plans to make seamless too.

“We probably won’t let you fly yourself directly down to a planet for the reason that we don’t want you to be crashing into things,” he explains. “But you’ll see the planet, and there won’t be a loading screen - essentially we’ll control the path. Everything will stream in and land and you’ll walk out.”

A loading screen by any other name....

Boy, this just keeps getting better and better doesn't it? Lol!

Hey if it worked with elevators in Mass Effect...
24.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 13:58
24.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 13:58
Sep 4, 2015, 13:58
 
Zor wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 12:30:
If only more commenters here could articulate themselves this well while also keeping their cool and not resorting to pointless insults and illogical, emotional assertions... good post, Lito.

And without my favorite, micro aggression.

Now this is crap, not even 25 posts on an SC thread. jk
“We’ve arranged a society on science and technology in which nobody understands anything about science and technology, and this combustible mixture of ignorance and power sooner or later is going to blow up in our faces." Carl Sagan
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23.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 12:30
Zor
23.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 12:30
Sep 4, 2015, 12:30
Zor
 
LurkerLito wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 09:44:
Task wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 09:01:
Citation please, otherwise this is hearsay. Plenty of space games being made, plenty of crowdfunds still succeeding regardless of SC.
The point is that SC has a big impact because it is one of the largest most successful at fund raising and is a poster child for the model that gets mentioned in mainstream magazines like Forbes. No one can truly know what it may or may not do to the crowdfunding model if it fails. The one thing that can be certain is if a well known name like Chris Roberts, who people see as experienced and should know enough about making games can gather all this money and can't make a "good" game that gets accolades, but instead release a buggy pile of crap then goes off to bankruptcy, then this project will become the poster child reason for not supporting crowdfunding and it will be picked up by mainstream media. That will most likely hurt all future crowdfunded projects.
If only more commenters here could articulate themselves this well while also keeping their cool and not resorting to pointless insults and illogical, emotional assertions... good post, Lito.
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22.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 11:21
22.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 11:21
Sep 4, 2015, 11:21
 
I have spent 0 dollars on Star Citizen and I agree with Kxmode.
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21.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 10:33
Kxmode
 
21.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 10:33
Sep 4, 2015, 10:33
 Kxmode
 
Pr()ZaC wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 07:27:
Kxmode... better don't feed the troll if you don't want to change your nickname into Hulkxmode.
It's pretty much useless to make sense here

Yup. Dealing with irrational people is illogical.
"Listen, Peter... with great horsepower comes... the sickest drifts..." - source
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20.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 10:14
20.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 10:14
Sep 4, 2015, 10:14
 
El Pit wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 01:09:
To put it with the great Frank Zappa: The Torture Never Stops. Neither will the development of this game. One game to rule them all? Yeah, sure.

Great tune, but I think 'The Radio is Broken' really captures the whole SC phenomenon.
19.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 09:44
19.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 09:44
Sep 4, 2015, 09:44
 
Task wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 09:01:
Citation please, otherwise this is hearsay. Plenty of space games being made, plenty of crowdfunds still succeeding regardless of SC.
The point is that SC has a big impact because it is one of the largest most successful at fund raising and is a poster child for the model that gets mentioned in mainstream magazines like Forbes. No one can truly know what it may or may not do to the crowdfunding model if it fails. The one thing that can be certain is if a well known name like Chris Roberts, who people see as experienced and should know enough about making games can gather all this money and can't make a "good" game that gets accolades, but instead release a buggy pile of crap then goes off to bankruptcy, then this project will become the poster child reason for not supporting crowdfunding and it will be picked up by mainstream media. That will most likely hurt all future crowdfunded projects.
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18.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 09:01
18.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 09:01
Sep 4, 2015, 09:01
 
Kxmode wrote on Sep 3, 2015, 23:50:

Because SC is the only game with the capacity to damage the crowdfunding / early access model for other indie game developers in addition to harming the rebirth of the PC space sim genre.


Citation please, otherwise this is hearsay. Plenty of space games being made, plenty of crowdfunds still succeeding regardless of SC.

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17.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 07:29
Bub
17.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 07:29
Sep 4, 2015, 07:29
Bub
 
This guy has always been long on promises and short on delivered product. In my opinion, Wind Commander was pretty awful, nowhere near as good as Freespace, Homeworld, or Descent. Just go watch those grainey full motion video cut scenes again, yuk.

Every time he opens his mouth he promises more stuff, while the delivery gets pushed further past the horizon.

Every wonder why no one has ever delivered a seamless combination of FPS, space flight sim, planet exploration, and MMO? Maybe because it is just a tad harder than just throwing separate modules together and hoping they play well together.
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... I miss BBS..
"There is a sucker born every minute." - PT Barnum
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16.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 07:27
16.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 07:27
Sep 4, 2015, 07:27
 
Kxmode... better don't feed the troll if you don't want to change your nickname into Hulkxmode.
It's pretty much useless to make sense here
15.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 04:11
15.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 04:11
Sep 4, 2015, 04:11
 
Kxmode wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 00:34:
Dagnamit wrote on Sep 4, 2015, 00:09:
you need to stop spending money on things that don't exist. you clearly can't control yourself.

What I'm about to say I say with respect, but who are you to tell me how to spend my money? You didn't work for my money. I did.

Gezz so you are one of those....yea i got my game only cost me 1000$

seek help dude
14.
 
Re: Evening Interviews
Sep 4, 2015, 01:09
El Pit
 
14.
Re: Evening Interviews Sep 4, 2015, 01:09
Sep 4, 2015, 01:09
 El Pit
 
To put it with the great Frank Zappa: The Torture Never Stops. Neither will the development of this game. One game to rule them all? Yeah, sure.
"There is no right life in the wrong one." (Theodor W. Adorno, philosopher)
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes." (Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi)
Founder, president, and only member of the official "Grumpy Old Gamers Club". Please do not apply.
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