harlock wrote on Aug 17, 2015, 17:42:
this whole idea of "they said they would!!!!" is just so fucking utterly hilarious to me

are you guys living in a world where everyone always does what they say they will do?? because let me tell you - its very often NOT THE CASE

especially when it comes to businesses, politicians, etc. etc.

i mean, i cant really understand how this is even considered a "good argument"... BECAUSE ITS FUCKING LAUGHABLE

Do you have any thoughts of your own? Any original ideas? Do you fucking exist? Your shitty posts read like some kid who just watched Fight Club for the first time and thought it was oh so insightful. Yeah people like to see others do what they said, what a fucking shocker.

harlock wrote on Aug 17, 2015, 17:42:
this whole idea of "they said they would!!!!" is just so fucking utterly hilarious to me

are you guys living in a world where everyone always does what they say they will do?? because let me tell you - its very often NOT THE CASE

especially when it comes to businesses, politicians, etc. etc.

i mean, i cant really understand how this is even considered a "good argument"... BECAUSE ITS FUCKING LAUGHABLE

Look up the difference between "is" and "ought". Sure it may be unrealistic to expect people to be honest. People being dishonest is an "is" about reality, and I'm talking about how it "ought" to be. See the difference? You are arguing about how people are dishonest and lie and mislead, and I'm taking about how they "ought" not do that and not deceive modders specifically in this case. So we agree that cd projekt red deceived modders?

Better Combat is not a mod, it's a bunch of glorified .ini tweaks.

harlock wrote on Aug 17, 2015, 17:42:
this whole idea of "they said they would!!!!" is just so fucking utterly hilarious to me

are you guys living in a world where everyone always does what they say they will do?? because let me tell you - its very often NOT THE CASE

especially when it comes to businesses, politicians, etc. etc.

i mean, i cant really understand how this is even considered a "good argument"... BECAUSE ITS FUCKING LAUGHABLE

You're correct. We live in a world where being dishonest is becoming the norm. Is this the type of world that as individuals, we want to live in. If the answer is yes then bend over and take it, if not, do something about it. Voice your opinion, look at big business and the juice they've acquired through campaign financing, lobbying etc and read up on how the world works and use voting and other mechanisms to change things. Change takes time like the people in power said to civil rights activists in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s & now lol. In 50 years we may see all sides agreeing that there is a problem... 1st step of the good old 12 step program.

this whole idea of "they said they would!!!!" is just so fucking utterly hilarious to me

are you guys living in a world where everyone always does what they say they will do?? because let me tell you - its very often NOT THE CASE

especially when it comes to businesses, politicians, etc. etc.

i mean, i cant really understand how this is even considered a "good argument"... BECAUSE ITS FUCKING LAUGHABLE

PHJF wrote on Aug 17, 2015, 13:41:
Team Fortress? Red Orchestra? Day of Defeat? Desert Combat? I could go on. I really miss the heyday of FPS modding. Half-Life alone had a lifetime of enjoyable and often ludicrous mods that did far more than simply enhance. To my knowledge Natural Selection was the first FPS/RTS hybrid.

It's pretty clear that established developers and publishers are no longer (if they ever even were) interested in pushing the video game envelope. I can't blame them with the ever-rising cost of development, which has likewise had a seriously negative effect on indie development (unless you're a devoted fan of 2D platformers or voxels). Mod tools and quality, comprehensive engine licensing represent the only real hope for truly innovative (and still modern) game design.

Witcher 3 was a great game, no doubt, but it wasn't without its share of faults, some of which were deeply rooted (like the aforementioned combat). The difference between a game like Skyrim and everything else is that the community was able to take the base game and shore it up enough to stand up to years of replays. On top of that, active modding routinely creates new sales. God knows ARMA would have sold a pitiful fraction of its numbers if DayZ hadn't come around.

I know releasing mod tools costs money, and mod tools may or may not bear fruit, but open world games like Witcher 3 benefit the most from modding, and any chance at evolutionary game design is likely to come from the community. They have to have tools to work with, though.

Except CDPR has released mod tools for W3. Mod tools that allow for scripting modifications. The kind of modifications you'd need to tune combat. In fact, there's already a mod that enhances combat.

They provided a lot of value with Witcher 3, no doubt about that. I just wish they would do what they said they were going to do and release the full kit. What always interests me about CDPR is that they buck the trends and convenient norms when many other companies don't even try. I'm not saying I won't buy their games or something silly, they're well within their rights not to do so. I just wish they would. As PHJF noted a shitload of great games and content comes out of the mod scene.

Team Fortress? Red Orchestra? Day of Defeat? Desert Combat? I could go on. I really miss the heyday of FPS modding. Half-Life alone had a lifetime of enjoyable and often ludicrous mods that did far more than simply enhance. To my knowledge Natural Selection was the first FPS/RTS hybrid.

It's pretty clear that established developers and publishers are no longer (if they ever even were) interested in pushing the video game envelope. I can't blame them with the ever-rising cost of development, which has likewise had a seriously negative effect on indie development (unless you're a devoted fan of 2D platformers or voxels). Mod tools and quality, comprehensive engine licensing represent the only real hope for truly innovative (and still modern) game design.

Witcher 3 was a great game, no doubt, but it wasn't without its share of faults, some of which were deeply rooted (like the aforementioned combat). The difference between a game like Skyrim and everything else is that the community was able to take the base game and shore it up enough to stand up to years of replays. On top of that, active modding routinely creates new sales. God knows ARMA would have sold a pitiful fraction of its numbers if DayZ hadn't come around.

I know releasing mod tools costs money, and mod tools may or may not bear fruit, but open world games like Witcher 3 benefit the most from modding, and any chance at evolutionary game design is likely to come from the community. They have to have tools to work with, though.

born2expire wrote on Aug 16, 2015, 15:20:
gotta protect that upcoming DLC

The only Mods I'm aware of to became popular enough to warrant their own product is DOTA (which created a new gaming genre called MOBAs), Counter Strike, and Garry's Mod. Other than those most mods have been simple enhancements to the existing game. I absolutely love CDPR but I have to agree with the community. Giving Modders more robust tools goes a long way towards keep the life of parent game going and Witcher 3 is a game that needs a long shelf life. It's so awesome! I want to go on more adventures in this game.

Just get the game on GOG or GMG.

The mod tools here aren't really much, more of a compilation suite. The full REDKit is what modders were waiting for. If you've played The Witcher 3 then you could see the world has a lot of promise for modding.

ColoradoHoudini wrote on Aug 16, 2015, 15:23:
Now that i have a 970gtx (upgraded from a 6970).. I can finally buy this game and appreciate it.

Okay, time to find the best deal on this title.

I found it on cdkeys.com .. legit site or not?

Bit late in replying, but I got my copy on GMG:

http://www.greenmangaming.com/s/us/en/pc/games/action/witcher-3-wild-hunt/#b

$29.99, perfectly legit.

Oops, just saw you got that info already - I would just wait a couple days until they get a new batch of keys.

Another fail by CDPR as far as PC gamers go, first was the console style combat gameplay and now promises of proper modding tools that was just a hype.

InBlack wrote on Aug 17, 2015, 04:09:
A lot of people jumping to defend one side or the other, when it's not really about that. The Witcher3 with it's quite open world could really spawn a massive modding community, depending on the tools that are released.

Some have brought up the lackluster mod scene from W2 as a reason not to really support a W3 mod scene, which is ass-backwards. W3 is a much more capable game and engine and appears to be the most well sold and popular game of the series. It could potentially support a massive mod scene depending on the support of the developers. Especially since Skyrim is getting a bit long in the tooth now.

I think a large part is that they basically said they were planning on releasing, good, modding tools eventually. This raised hopes, created hopes, and of course got more people interested in the game etc. The disappointment is only adding some fuel to the fire.

The Witcher 3 being open world thus more suited to meaningful modding, compared to The Witcher 2, isn't the only reason for Witcher 2 not having a thriving modding community. There are people who say things like "Witcher 2 didn't have this big modding community so why bother with Witcher 3" thinking it's logical not to release the tools thinking the demand isn't there.

Which is a rather, obtuse way to look at it, and not considering many things. Not only was The Witcher 2 less suitable for modding but modding support took forever, any noteworthy interest in both the game and modding had died off by the time they finally released something worthwhile.

Also a modding community doesn't spring up over night, there are very few cases of games that end up with many mods/modders without having first build up such a community through previous games (often in the same franchise). Mod support doesn't guarantee an instant community, that's an exception and looking at the games that do it's easy to see why they do, taking something like Kerbal Space Program as an example (it's the kind of game that even at its core attracts the kind of people that want to build things). Something like The Witcher 3, Skyrim, Oblivion, any RPG really does not intrinsically attract "builders", Skyrim didn't get a modding community due to its tools, that community was already there waiting due to past games same it's predecessor, what those games did and did well was support and help those communities grow over many many years.

Lets not forget modders (at least depending on the complexity of the mod) are very much developers, and if you've ever met a developer and talked about what they prefer to use you'll know they're even worse than consumers about what they support, because they have to work with the tools and can settle into a way of doing things, a way of thinking even. Unless you already have a bunch already used to using your tools, and happy using your tools more are not going to come flocking in overnight, it takes repeated releases to show you have tools that won't require them to relearn everything down to the wheel for them to get involved in a new version/release. Getting an entire modding community on the first release with modding support is an unrealistic expectation even if it is the kind of game that attracts builders, for an RPG it takes time, it takes repeated releases to build a noteworthy, experienced and capable modding community.

So anyone, either the devs/publishers or just some armchair Joe, using a past game (especially one like Witcher 2, even without considering how long modding support took) as reason to not bother releasing or supporting modding in future titles (especially when the newer titles are suitable for both mass and meaningful mods) is being, silly, to put it politely. Taking one tiny tidbit and forming a thesis on it alone while ignoring a world of important influencing factors.

As that old crap movie said "if you build it they will come", well CD Projekt has not yet build it, "it" consists of more than just tools, it also requires something suitable to mod. This time they finally have something suitable to mod, though now they haven't provided the means. They still have not built "it". Even if they had it still would have been only their first release to be both suitable for and support modding.

So those I called "silly" should instead point to this being the last Witcher game (and potentially their last game with such modding potential) so it being to late to start building a modding community, they would at least have a chair with two legs to stand on. Though that's only the case if CD Projekt isn't going to release any more such games suitable for modding. This kind of experience and tech doesn't grow on trees, so they may as well put it to use especially since there is a demand as sales show not just for Witcher 3, though that's another debate.

Basically CD Projekt either completely screwed a pooch and messed up, or doesn't understand modding (hence the release of an "MSpaint" like modding tool), or someone is incompetent. Or they just don't care, possibly because they know they won't be releasing any more such games for a very long time, as in they don't even have plans to brainstorm one for future.

Though regardless of it all they did somewhat screw a pooch by strongly suggesting there would "RedKit" like modding and then handing out "MSpaint" like modding. It also screws themselves in that such a suitable game with good modding support would have been selling for many years to come, so a lot of lost potential which in itself can annoy people.

HoSpanky wrote on Aug 16, 2015, 15:31:
GoG puts it on sale quite often. Never used CDkeys.


The game is massive, and wonderfully well done, and people are complaining that the mod tools aren't awesome enough. It's amazing how entitled people are. While I'd like to see what modders come up with, it's usually just reskins. At this point on games, making a texture replacement pack is kind of pointless, and assembling even a 5-minute adventure that's at the same quality level would take modders a terrifying amount of time.

And if it's NOT the same quality level as the base game, it's not worth wasting your time on, is it?

Uhm. isn't that kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy? If there aren't proper modtools available reskins is all you are going to get.

InBlack wrote on Aug 17, 2015, 04:09:
A lot of people jumping to defend one side or the other, when it's not really about that. The Witcher3 with it's quite open world could really spawn a massive modding community, depending on the tools that are released.

Some have brought up the lackluster mod scene from W2 as a reason not to really support a W3 mod scene, which is ass-backwards. W3 is a much more capable game and engine and appears to be the most well sold and popular game of the series. It could potentially support a massive mod scene depending on the support of the developers. Especially since Skyrim is getting a bit long in the tooth now.

True, the open-world and mainstream success of W3 do give it stronger modding potential. However, considering how underwhelming the mod community was for W2, I can understand CDPR's hesitation at rolling out the full toolset. It's possible they're simply testing the waters with this initial release and if the mod community starts growing, they'll release more extensive tools.

A lot of people jumping to defend one side or the other, when it's not really about that. The Witcher3 with it's quite open world could really spawn a massive modding community, depending on the tools that are released.

Some have brought up the lackluster mod scene from W2 as a reason not to really support a W3 mod scene, which is ass-backwards. W3 is a much more capable game and engine and appears to be the most well sold and popular game of the series. It could potentially support a massive mod scene depending on the support of the developers. Especially since Skyrim is getting a bit long in the tooth now.

jacobvandy wrote on Aug 16, 2015, 20:51:
Not only is the verbiage in the interview from January 2014 very non-committal (absolutely not a promise like Blue wrote)

I don't read it as being non-committal on IF they will release REDkit, but WHEN exactly after the game launches they are "looking to" release it. Sounds to me like it was definitely going to be released, but they didn't have an exact date.

Creston wrote on Aug 16, 2015, 18:29:

Jerykk wrote on Aug 16, 2015, 16:58:
It's kind of like how DAO had extensive mod tools but nobody really cared, so Bioware didn't bother with DA2 and Inquisition.

Errr, DAO got quite a few mods. Some very good ones too. DAO in no way compares to the lack of Mods for W2.

I was kinda hoping someone would do an overhaul mod for W3 (like oscuro did for Oblivion), as the level of monsters is all over the fucking place. Level 9 monster, level 9 bandit, oh, hi level 24 basilisk.

Level 18 drowners, level 15 wyverns, hey a level 3 bandit camp.

It really makes no sense whatsoever.

DAO's mod community wasn't large enough to justify the effort of releasing extensive mod tools, hence the reason why Bioware didn't do so for the sequels. Same applies to Witcher 2. Witcher 2 had some good mods too but not enough to justify a full REDkit release for Witcher 3.

jamiedj99 wrote on Aug 16, 2015, 16:51:
Someone needs to penetrate a sever and grab REDkit and release it to the public

now you're talking! the most consumer-friendly PC gaming company on earth... FUCK THOSE GUYS!

born2expire wrote on Aug 16, 2015, 15:20:
gotta protect that upcoming DLC

just awful.