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24. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 17, 2015, 19:46 JohnnyRotten
 
Frags4Fun wrote on Aug 14, 2015, 11:28:
Unfortunately, history is full of apologists just like yourself who defended and even worshiped the very people that eventually destroyed them.

That is more than a wee bit over the top.

As this is an extraordinary claim, the burden of proof lies on the claimant. Verno is right - this is a bunch of supposition without any proof, and the proof is easy enough to gather.

Network traffic isn't magic. Whatever "traps" the tin-foil types think is built into the O/S to prevent monitoring illicit behavior directly from the computer can simply be defeated (ie, monitored and recorded) by a transparent/bridging firewall sitting between the computer and the router.

Also, Godwin's law applies here.
 
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23. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 14, 2015, 22:51 eRe4s3r
 
"fairly privacy conscious" is an oxymoron

I don't have W10, I read forums to Inform myself, so if that info there is wrong, well live and learn. Fact is that I see enough data collection with proof that I won't touch this OS until there is proof that all spying can be blocked.
 
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22. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 14, 2015, 13:15 Rigs
 
Frags4Fun wrote on Aug 14, 2015, 11:28:
You were probably educated in America so Im not the least bit surprised actually.

Every point you could have made was immediately undone by that statement alone. I have no doubt in my mind that 'sheeple' is a very big part of your vocabulary, as is, most likely, 'Illuminati' and 'false flag'. I take serious issue with your stereotyping of my fellow Americans, most likely based on nothing but a huge helping of ignorance. Go back to Youtube...


=-Rigs-=

 
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21. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 14, 2015, 11:35 Verno
 
Unfortunately, history is full of apologists just like yourself who defended and even worshiped the very people that eventually destroyed them.

I find your faith willful ignorance amusing. Or maybe it's not willful, maybe youre simply uneducated in history (I'm not saying you're stupid, you're obviously a bright guy/gal). And when I say history, Im not referring to that propaganda laced tripe that's shown on the history channel or what you were taught in high school.

Haha yeah, how dare I react to the facts, investigate them myself and do my own research instead of going off into conspiracy theories and nonsense. Blindly accepting article titles and not doing your own research, sure sounds like faith and willful ignorance to me. Instead of looking to reinforce your opinion, maybe you should attempt to gain some experience with it to weigh in. You could install Windows 10 in a VM and actually do what others are doing, take a traffic dump and actually see whats going on. But no its easier to parrot shit and talk about regimes from the 40s as if its any way related. It's pretty telling that you seem to think I'm defending Microsoft or Windows 10, I'm just commenting on the facts. I think the telemetry setting is the only big deal and that it needs to change, I've weighed the rest and most of it was in Windows 8 and easily disabled. I also have a pretty long history of negative comments on Microsoft OS when and where its appropriate.

And by the way, fuck you very much too. How dare you label me an apologist for actually testing something for myself and commenting on it. When I insult someone I tend to be a little more direct instead of hiding behind a bunch of tripe about history and implying that their education is somehow inferior because they disagree with me. Don't project your insecurities on me.
 
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20. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 14, 2015, 11:28 Frags4Fun
 
Verno wrote on Aug 14, 2015, 08:45:
How can he disprove something you haven't demonstrated to exist in the first place? Link a traffic dump from a border router showing this datas existence otherwise its just a meaningless bit of paranoia. Sure Microsoft could be collecting traffic to establish a network of advanced concentration camps....but there is no data to support that so no one has to disprove it. There are plenty of things Windows 10 does collect, we don't need to go around inventing things it doesn't.

If you're referring to PRISM then sure, lets just remember that literally every big tech company was also cooperating due to strong arming by the government. Facebook, Apple, Google, Cisco, etc. I don't see why other companies get a pass for this but Microsoft gets demonized.

Finally let's be realistic, all of these privacy toggles and internet based functions existed in Windows 8.1 except for Cortana. The only real difference in Windows 10 is the basic telemetry data setting and if they disable that its exactly like any other Windows version. If they do so, will people stop complaining?


Unfortunately, history is full of apologists just like yourself who defended and even worshiped the very people that eventually destroyed them.

I find your faith willful ignorance amusing. Or maybe it's not willful, maybe youre simply uneducated in history (I'm not saying you're stupid, you're obviously a bright guy/gal). And when I say history, Im not referring to that propaganda laced tripe that's shown on the history channel or what you were taught in high school.

I have to say that I'm fascinated by your ability to assume that everything is going to be ok even though history has rarely shown that to be the case. You were probably educated in America so Im not the least bit surprised actually.

Apparently, for you, it's clever to poke fun at people who raise valid concerns based on similarities in history. Thats a common tactic which you have been conditioned to utilize in this modern age. Im sure that youre not even aware of that conditioning because you havent bothered to step back analyze it. True story, billions have been spent perfecting such things.

The truth is, we have an absolutely horrible track record of governments abusing its citizens that goes back to the beginning of recorded history. You are obviously naive enough to think that something like the holocaust could never happen again, but how can you be so sure and put so much trust in this shit? Is it because you believe that we are somehow enlightened now or some stupid shit? I bet that most people of the pre-WWII era thought that we were beyond such horrors as well, right before they were dragged off to the death camps or completely obliterated during the wars. Most of the German population didnt even know that the holocaust happened until well after the war.

Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night, buddy.
 
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19. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 14, 2015, 11:15 Verno
 
That is a big non-answer that has nothing to do with the topic though. You said there is some sort of insidious idle data collection going on and there simply isn't. Windows 10 has basically one telemetry setting that can't be disabled, everything else is tied to a web service that can be or was held in a previous version of Windows.

As far as privacy goes Windows is pretty good, literally every other device you own these days is worse. Shit my TV tries to make outbound connections FFS. They just need to make sure the privacy toggles work as advertised (some are buggy) and to let people control that telemetry setting then its literally no different than prior versions.

I am fairly privacy conscious and I want these things to change too but some people here are frankly off their rockers with the hyperbole and even outright lies about what is actually going on. Let's react to what they're actually doing instead of imagining things and going off into conspiracy land. I doubt a single one of the people spouting such nonsense has actually run Windows 10 and tested any of these things, they are just parroting headlines and going no deeper than that.

This comment was edited on Aug 14, 2015, 11:29.
 
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18. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 14, 2015, 10:38 eRe4s3r
 
You wanna know why I will never stop complaining about privacy violations? I experienced the (death throws) of the STASI

You probably have no idea what that was like. We Germans care about privacy. Not because we are picky, but because we lived many years in a nation where privacy didn't exist. And that was a nation sized concentration camp.

That data in Windows 10 isn't collected to better your life.

 
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17. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 14, 2015, 08:45 Verno
 
How can he disprove something you haven't demonstrated to exist in the first place? Link a traffic dump from a border router showing this datas existence otherwise its just a meaningless bit of paranoia. Sure Microsoft could be collecting traffic to establish a network of advanced concentration camps....but there is no data to support that so no one has to disprove it. There are plenty of things Windows 10 does collect, we don't need to go around inventing things it doesn't.

If you're referring to PRISM then sure, lets just remember that literally every big tech company was also cooperating due to strong arming by the government. Facebook, Apple, Google, Cisco, etc. I don't see why other companies get a pass for this but Microsoft gets demonized.

Finally let's be realistic, all of these privacy toggles and internet based functions existed in Windows 8.1 except for Cortana. The only real difference in Windows 10 is the basic telemetry data setting and if they disable that its exactly like any other Windows version. If they do so, will people stop complaining?

 
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16. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 14, 2015, 08:27 eRe4s3r
 
Krowen wrote on Aug 14, 2015, 07:23:
eRe4s3r wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 21:57:
With encryption I meant the telemetry data is encrypted it collects and sends it when machine is idle, so you could potentially catch what is recorded... but since I am too paranoid to run W10 anywhere....

The idle data collection thing is a forum myth with no validity.

Or so you claim, but can you prove it? See, the problem ain't validity, the problem is many people would believe NSA pwned MS would pull a stunt like this, including me.

Especially since MS did push "telemetry" loggers on Windows 8 and 8.1 as important update, and on Windows 7 as optional update. NSA backdoor or useful feature? Who can tell the difference nowadays?

In a post Snowden era MS is about as trustworthy as a snake oil salesman
 
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15. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 14, 2015, 07:23 Megalodon
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 21:57:
With encryption I meant the telemetry data is encrypted it collects and sends it when machine is idle, so you could potentially catch what is recorded... but since I am too paranoid to run W10 anywhere....

The idle data collection thing is a forum myth with no validity.
 
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14. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 13, 2015, 21:57 eRe4s3r
 
With encryption I meant the telemetry data is encrypted it collects and sends it when machine is idle, so you could potentially catch what is recorded... but since I am too paranoid to run W10 anywhere....  
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13. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 13, 2015, 21:35 wtf_man
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 20:01:
From what I understand Ars Technica overlooked a huge part of the spying though, which triggers once your PC goes into idle. (no user action for X minutes) and does NOT trigger when you have wireshark capturing data (since that ain't exactly idle anything, Wireshark has a huge footprint). This idle period is when it sends the most "mysterious" data, encrypted, but surely not just cat pictures, to the domain I posted amongst others. Quick whois revealed who owns it. Do you want anything and everything on your PC sent to an Anti-Piracy/DRM outfit?

Proving anything would be nice though, currently and I freely admit, this is speculations, one can see the connection, but one can not prove what exactly is sent, you'd have to crack the encryption first and trick the idle services to trigger even when capturing (so you have to do it outside the box, by running W10 in a VM) and wireshark outside the VM

Actually one can.
Enterprise NG Firewalls with web content filtering that requires a custom certificate installed on the endpoint so the device can do a man in the middle attack to decrypt https traffic. These enterprise web filters and firewalls use this technique all the time for their company owned machines. It's the only way to stop malware that goes over https. It also stops folks from being able to use a proxy to bypass the content filter. Of course, Financial and Health categories are set not to be decrypted.

Anyway... one can set a machine up as a proxy, put wireshark on it, and use the same decryption technique.

I really don't care what the payload is, though. Theoretically... An easier method is to just have a NG firewall / web filter block everything from the Windows 10 IP, and look at all the denied traffic in the logs on where it's trying to go (better yet, import the logs into Splunk and get the pertinent data out in seconds)... then subsequently block all the domains / ips except windows updates.

/shrug
 
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12. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 13, 2015, 20:01 eRe4s3r
 
RedEye9 wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 14:00:
Verno wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 13:29:
RedEye9 wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 12:23:

I am not using Windows 10 yet and my tin-foil is already way too thick, but googling reveals; http://goo.gl/hcGh9p and
https://goo.gl/UqzZki

The first source has no evidence, just a bunch of allegations. The second is just a list of Microsoft servers. Arstechnica has a more reputable article with sources on what Windows does and doesn't collect.

To me it seems like a combination of rushed design (some settings just send useless traffic with no identifiers regardless of toggle setting) and basic telemetry data that they want for whatever reason. With a pretty good release otherwise they should really ask themselves if its worth all this bad press.

Edit: with link to article

Great, thanks for following and reading those links, I was too busy to do that. Now we have allegations, speculations and reputable sources. All better now.

From what I understand Ars Technica overlooked a huge part of the spying though, which triggers once your PC goes into idle. (no user action for X minutes) and does NOT trigger when you have wireshark capturing data (since that ain't exactly idle anything, Wireshark has a huge footprint). This idle period is when it sends the most "mysterious" data, encrypted, but surely not just cat pictures, to the domain I posted amongst others. Quick whois revealed who owns it. Do you want anything and everything on your PC sent to an Anti-Piracy/DRM outfit?

Proving anything would be nice though, currently and I freely admit, this is speculations, one can see the connection, but one can not prove what exactly is sent, you'd have to crack the encryption first and trick the idle services to trigger even when capturing (so you have to do it outside the box, by running W10 in a VM) and wireshark outside the VM

And just to repeat this, blocking Windows services via hosts file DOES NOT WORK

It throws errors, but the data transmissions continue

For me there is no relevancy to proving specifics. My OS has not, ever, the right to contact an anti-piracy outfit to show them my ripped music. Even if MS doesn't act on it, this is violation of privacy and illegal.

This comment was edited on Aug 13, 2015, 20:08.
 
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11. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 13, 2015, 17:51 wtf_man
 
RedEye9 wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 15:29:
John, do you have a blog or a newsletter. I just looked at the intro video for wireshark and that is something that I am not going to learn in this lifetime. I am interested in what you find. But then again all I have is W10 Pro on an unused laptop , so if Enterprise is necessary to turn off all the phone home stuff then I am out of luck. If I could pm you I would but alas, this ain't the hardforum.

I don't blog nor social network. I post on about 3 forums... this being one of them. I maintain as much privacy as I possibly can in this age of clandestine data mining... on all of my devices, including my phone. I have a very big tinfoil hat and I'm proud of it. Shit is way too Orwellian these days, for my tastes.

That said... I'm sure more articles, utilities, and documentation will become available as more obscure communications from this new OS is uncovered.

I would just wait a while before upgrading, if I were you. Armed with knowledge, as it becomes available, is your best way to fight this stuff.
 
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10. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 13, 2015, 15:29 RedEye9
 
wtf_man wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 15:05:
So far, the Enterprise version is pretty much the only way to turn all the phone home shit off, and you still have to do it via local or group policy.

I haven't taken wireshark to it yet, to see if I got it all, though.

John, do you have a blog or a newsletter. I just looked at the intro video for wireshark and that is something that I am not going to learn in this lifetime. I am interested in what you find. But then again all I have is W10 Pro on an unused laptop , so if Enterprise is necessary to turn off all the phone home stuff then I am out of luck. If I could pm you I would but alas, this ain't the hardforum.

This comment was edited on Aug 13, 2015, 15:36.
 
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9. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 13, 2015, 15:05 wtf_man
 
So far, the Enterprise version is pretty much the only way to turn all the phone home shit off, and you still have to do it via local or group policy.

I haven't taken wireshark to it yet, to see if I got it all, though.
 
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8. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 13, 2015, 14:00 RedEye9
 
Verno wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 13:29:
RedEye9 wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 12:23:

I am not using Windows 10 yet and my tin-foil is already way too thick, but googling reveals; http://goo.gl/hcGh9p and
https://goo.gl/UqzZki

The first source has no evidence, just a bunch of allegations. The second is just a list of Microsoft servers. Arstechnica has a more reputable article with sources on what Windows does and doesn't collect.

To me it seems like a combination of rushed design (some settings just send useless traffic with no identifiers regardless of toggle setting) and basic telemetry data that they want for whatever reason. With a pretty good release otherwise they should really ask themselves if its worth all this bad press.

Edit: with link to article

Great, thanks for following and reading those links, I was too busy to do that. Now we have allegations, speculations and reputable sources. All better now.
 
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7. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 13, 2015, 13:29 Verno
 
RedEye9 wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 12:23:

I am not using Windows 10 yet and my tin-foil is already way too thick, but googling reveals; http://goo.gl/hcGh9p and
https://goo.gl/UqzZki

The first source has no evidence, just a bunch of allegations. The second is just a list of Microsoft servers. Arstechnica has a more reputable article with sources on what Windows does and doesn't collect.

To me it seems like a combination of rushed design (some settings just send useless traffic with no identifiers regardless of toggle setting) and basic telemetry data that they want for whatever reason. With a pretty good release otherwise they should really ask themselves if its worth all this bad press.

Edit: with link to article

This comment was edited on Aug 13, 2015, 13:34.
 
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6. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 13, 2015, 13:22 Frags4Fun
 
RedEye9 wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 12:23:
Creston wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 11:39:
eRe4s3r wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 10:10:
IN other news Windows 10 also scans your media files and sends the info about them, hashes, including your unique HW ID to cs1.wpc.v0cdn.net owned by https://www.markmonitor.com/

So not just does MS scan your porn files, it uploads the info to an anti-piracy outfits servers. WTF is MS and markmonitor doing with that ?

Source?

I am not using Windows 10 yet and my tin-foil is already way too thick, but googling reveals; http://goo.gl/hcGh9p and
https://goo.gl/UqzZki

Where are all those apologists now? Can't wait to read more of their bullshit excuses.
 
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5. Re: Morning Tech Bits Aug 13, 2015, 12:23 RedEye9
 
Creston wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 11:39:
eRe4s3r wrote on Aug 13, 2015, 10:10:
IN other news Windows 10 also scans your media files and sends the info about them, hashes, including your unique HW ID to cs1.wpc.v0cdn.net owned by https://www.markmonitor.com/

So not just does MS scan your porn files, it uploads the info to an anti-piracy outfits servers. WTF is MS and markmonitor doing with that ?

Source?

I am not using Windows 10 yet and my tin-foil is already way too thick, but googling reveals; http://goo.gl/hcGh9p and
https://goo.gl/UqzZki
 
Avatar 58135
 
If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell.
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