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Morning Safety Dance

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49. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2015, 10:12 Verno
 
Some straight up crazy people on this site holy shit hahaha.

MICROSOFT CONCENTRATION CAMPS!!!!1

I feel bad for wtf_man who at least has a reasonable opinion that is drowned out by such nonsense.
 
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48. Re: I had privacy once... Aug 5, 2015, 09:58 Julio
 
Frags4Fun wrote on Aug 5, 2015, 08:55:
Ask the over 6 million people who were killed by the Nazis in concentration camps if they felt like they were helping society when their data was categorized by the IBM computers of the time.

History is going to repeat itself again, and those installing Windows 10 can line up first for the concentration camps.
 
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47. Re: I had privacy once... Aug 5, 2015, 09:39 wtf_man
 
NewMaxx wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 23:13:
Some of you guys crack me up.

We want our privacy! Sure, but you'll get shittier services in return.

A lot of us don't WANT the services, though.
Just a platform to launch our locally run applications. No cloud, no social networking, no anything else.

So, yes, we have a right to bitch about privacy when unwanted "services" are bundled into the platform with no choice to completely opt out. Obviously running something like Linux isn't an option either, since that doesn't run our software investment.

So, either sticking with an old OS that will go end of life and eventually be a security nightmare... or hacking out the crap in the new OS and bitching about the lack of choice of what is bundled in / privacy concerns... are the only two viable options.

As far as that being backwards thinking... something being rammed down your throat is never pleasant... therefore there is resistance to your interpretation of so-called "progress" will always be apparent. Deal with it.

Since I do have an extensive security background, if anyone here is being Naive, it's you.
 
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46. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2015, 09:38 gray
 
This says it all:

we will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to: 1.comply with applicable law or respond to valid legal process, including from law enforcement or other government agencies
 
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45. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 5, 2015, 09:20 Verno
 
You might want to get some perspective if you're really going to contrast this with the nazis.

Holy Godwin's Law batman.

I can't tell when people are farting around or when they're serious anymore.
 
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44. Re: I had privacy once... Aug 5, 2015, 08:55 Frags4Fun
 
NewMaxx wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 23:13:
Some of you guys crack me up.

We want our privacy! Sure, but you'll get shittier services in return. It's not rocket science. More information means better accuracy, better accuracy means more convenience. People act like they're some, okay let's use the term, "special snowflake," when in reality you can be categorized with 95%+ accuracy within a month or two of recording your searches. Racial profiling, prejudice! No, it's the facts. I want my privacy! Then you can fall behind in productivity because you'll never keep up with progressing society. It's a fact, it's a reality, deal with it.

You have the people who complain about apps not delivering enough or being perfect turning around and being hypocrites by refusing to supply the data that would make them better; you guys are part of the problem, not the solution. Privacy is no longer the issue, it's more of getting greater value in return for the trade. Giving up your privacy for their gain is stupid, giving it up for your or the greater gain is not. Simple. Saying that giving up some privacy regardless of the reasons or rationale is somehow equivalent to 1984 is just naive and, to be quite honest, backwards-thinking.

After that seemingly intelligent rant, you want to talk about people being naive? /facepalm

Ask the over 6 million people who were killed by the Nazis in concentration camps if they felt like they were helping society when their data was categorized by the IBM computers of the time. That's right, the Nazis used a system built by IBM to categorize it's people and then they came in the night and took them all away to their doom. Do you honestly think that mankind has evolved past such atrocities?

People like you who swoop in on your high horse thinking you know how all this data will be used in the long term make me sick. You are the problem, not the people who are cautious and who studied history and who know that it's only a matter of time before some psychopaths use all that data against us.

Link
 
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43. Re: I had privacy once... Aug 5, 2015, 08:38 InBlack
 
NewMaxx wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 23:13:
Some of you guys crack me up.

We want our privacy! Sure, but you'll get shittier services in return. It's not rocket science. More information means better accuracy, better accuracy means more convenience. People act like they're some, okay let's use the term, "special snowflake," when in reality you can be categorized with 95%+ accuracy within a month or two of recording your searches. Racial profiling, prejudice! No, it's the facts. I want my privacy! Then you can fall behind in productivity because you'll never keep up with progressing society. It's a fact, it's a reality, deal with it.

You have the people who complain about apps not delivering enough or being perfect turning around and being hypocrites by refusing to supply the data that would make them better; you guys are part of the problem, not the solution. Privacy is no longer the issue, it's more of getting greater value in return for the trade. Giving up your privacy for their gain is stupid, giving it up for your or the greater gain is not. Simple. Saying that giving up some privacy regardless of the reasons or rationale is somehow equivalent to 1984 is just naive and, to be quite honest, backwards-thinking.

If that were the case why didn't Microsoft make a EULA where it specifically states that they will not give away or SELL any of the information they collect to third parties or the government without a specific warrant?

Wouldn't that be a win win? They can collect 'information' to make better products and they get good press for actually protecting your rights?

You know why they didn't do that? Cos your theory is fucking bullshit that's why. They don't wanna collect your information to make better products, they wanna sell you advertising and they don't want to step on the government's toes. Scratch my back Ill scratch yours, as long as you are the government or another multi-billion dollar corporation. There is a whole army of people like you who will not only swallow it up whole, but call everyone else who doesn't a bunch of names for actually giving a shit. Good job in that regard Maxx, I'm sure they appreciate it back in Redmond.

This comment was edited on Aug 5, 2015, 08:44.
 
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42. Re: I had privacy once... Aug 4, 2015, 23:13 NewMaxx
 
Some of you guys crack me up.

We want our privacy! Sure, but you'll get shittier services in return. It's not rocket science. More information means better accuracy, better accuracy means more convenience. People act like they're some, okay let's use the term, "special snowflake," when in reality you can be categorized with 95%+ accuracy within a month or two of recording your searches. Racial profiling, prejudice! No, it's the facts. I want my privacy! Then you can fall behind in productivity because you'll never keep up with progressing society. It's a fact, it's a reality, deal with it.

You have the people who complain about apps not delivering enough or being perfect turning around and being hypocrites by refusing to supply the data that would make them better; you guys are part of the problem, not the solution. Privacy is no longer the issue, it's more of getting greater value in return for the trade. Giving up your privacy for their gain is stupid, giving it up for your or the greater gain is not. Simple. Saying that giving up some privacy regardless of the reasons or rationale is somehow equivalent to 1984 is just naive and, to be quite honest, backwards-thinking.
 
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41. Re: I had privacy once... Aug 4, 2015, 21:29 Saboth
 
Bard wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 18:11:
...and what our governments weren't able to do legally, private companies started doing.

...now that the infrastructure is there to put us ALL under surveillance (you love your government++ don't you?) courtesy of private enterprise.

...we have no need to create laws to protect our privacy


Yeah, most of our laws are in place to protect us from government, but when we sign up with private enterprises, we have few protections. So now corporate interests own our government, and our government can control private enterprise with almost no oversight. This whole "here is a free OS...btw, we own and have a right to snoop through everything on your computer" is pretty scary these days. Citizens seem to have no one looking out for them since Big Brother and Big Corporate are sleeping together. Recall back when MS said Skype was secure and they had no intention of building back doors for the government, yet the Snowden leaks revealed that that was all one big fat absolute lie.
 
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40. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 4, 2015, 20:47 Megalodon
 
HorrorScope wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 19:39:
If you read this tread you would see that is highly in question that turning it off in Home and Pro isn't turning it off it drops it down one notch and that is just one setting. I have no problem waiting to see/hear more on this, but right now it is at least in question.

That's the only setting in question and the rest can all be disabled according to my research on Google. No one has actually proven what its sending, if anything at all. There are a half dozen toggles in the operating system and the rest is common sense shit like don't use their cloud based voice assistant.

Too many people reacting to news head lines instead of fact.
 
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39. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 4, 2015, 20:43 HorrorScope
 
Julio wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 20:38:
HorrorScope wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 18:44:
One comeback is perhaps one does more personal things on their personal computer vs Sony's game machine.

That's exactly my take on it. If my PC is going to be data mined so it's not useful for anything personal (i.e. other than playing games), then I might as well use a PS4.

I'm not that concerned over being data mined on a gaming only device versus a PC which currently has multiple purposes. So what if Sony gets my credit card info, and what games I play. They're not reading my email, looking at my bank account, recording what I say in the room my PC is in, looking at personal photos etc. etc.

Edit: As for those who trust Microsoft, it's been proven they can't be trusted. Turning one of the data mining options off still results in it collecting data. The only way to get them to temporarily back off is to completely reject Windows 10 - just like what happened with Windows 8.

Yup, I'm definitely looking into firewall blocking their outbound data.
 
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38. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 4, 2015, 20:38 Julio
 
HorrorScope wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 18:44:
One comeback is perhaps one does more personal things on their personal computer vs Sony's game machine.

That's exactly my take on it. If my PC is going to be data mined so it's not useful for anything personal (i.e. other than playing games), then I might as well use a PS4.

I'm not that concerned over being data mined on a gaming only device versus a PC which currently has multiple purposes. So what if Sony gets my credit card info, and what games I play. They're not reading my email, looking at my bank account, recording what I say in the room my PC is in, looking at personal photos etc. etc.

Edit: As for those who trust Microsoft, it's been proven they can't be trusted. Turning one of the data mining options off still results in it collecting data. The only way to get them to temporarily back off is to completely reject Windows 10 - just like what happened with Windows 8.
 
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37. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 4, 2015, 19:39 HorrorScope
 
Redmask wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 18:52:
Everything I've read on this subject says you are still in control which is what matters to me. I don't care if MS makes it all on by default as long as I can turn it off. When I lose control, that's a different story.

If you read this tread you would see that is highly in question that turning it off in Home and Pro isn't turning it off it drops it down one notch and that is just one setting. I have no problem waiting to see/hear more on this, but right now it is at least in question.
 
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36. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 4, 2015, 19:35 Ludomancer
 
You are a shill. No one should ever, ever, have to disable such features on a device that sits in the privacy of their own home, let alone have to defend why that should be unacceptable in the first place.
We both know Microsoft will force this on the world eventually. You have to be at least intelligent enough to know that is bad.



Parallax Abstraction wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 11:40:
Cory Doctorow's career of feeding paranoia for clicks continues.

As someone who is using Windows 10 on multiple systems, most of these privacy concerns are very overblown. There are settings enabled by using Express Settings that shouldn't be but if you take 5 seconds to do Custom Settings, most of it can be turned off. And it still pales in comparison to the volumes of information all social networks and smartphone platforms are collecting and monetising without your knowledge. That people are acting as if this is some horrible new privacy breach that hasn't been done before aren't paying attention. If this bothers you, don't ever use Facebook, Twitter or your iPhone.
 
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35. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 4, 2015, 18:52 Redmask
 
That's a cop out excuse that makes no sense. You have zero control over data dissemination on a closed platform. You have no idea what is leaving. It could be your credit card and personal info, or it could whatever dippy game you played. If anything it makes more sense to keep using an open platform PC where you can observe first hand and customize it to your needs. Fact is people just like to bitch. If they really cared they would put up for real and take the same approach to their cellular and every other device in their life.

Everything I've read on this subject says you are still in control which is what matters to me. I don't care if MS makes it all on by default as long as I can turn it off. When I lose control, that's a different story. So far I'm not seeing anything I can't disable right inside of the setup outside of one orphaned setting that was probably left in by mistake. OS rollouts are complicated and it just came out, they will fix it and when they do I will upgrade.

Maybe it will be a big deal for your parents who don't know how the fuck to use Windows but I doubt it. They are too busy disclosing their vacation plans to potential robbers on Facebook and posting your baby pictures up there for Mark to archive for all eternity.
 
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34. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 4, 2015, 18:44 HorrorScope
 
Redmask wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 18:16:
Julio wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 17:24:
I doubt those Windows 10 DX12 exclusive games will be here shortly; I can also deal without them, they'll probably arrive for PS4 as well.

Why would you get upset about privacy then load up on a closed console platform where you have no control over anything and literally every aspect of it is uploaded to Sony servers? It strikes me that there are users on the internet who just want to complain about everything even if it goes against something they just said.

I will upgrade to Windows 10 when I'm good and ready but I won't be avoiding it because some internet quarterback wants to pretend to make a stink about something he doesn't even give a shit about in the first place.

One comeback is perhaps one does more personal things on their personal computer vs Sony's game machine.

I get your point and a lot of this has interesting slants to it. But one thing going on here is people want to keep certain rights and privacies and just don't want them blatantly without vote taken away.
 
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33. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 4, 2015, 18:16 Redmask
 
Julio wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 17:24:
I doubt those Windows 10 DX12 exclusive games will be here shortly; I can also deal without them, they'll probably arrive for PS4 as well.

Why would you get upset about privacy then load up on a closed console platform where you have no control over anything and literally every aspect of it is uploaded to Sony servers? It strikes me that there are users on the internet who just want to complain about everything even if it goes against something they just said.

I will upgrade to Windows 10 when I'm good and ready but I won't be avoiding it because some internet quarterback wants to pretend to make a stink about something he doesn't even give a shit about in the first place.
 
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32. I had privacy once... Aug 4, 2015, 18:11 Bard
 
...and what our governments weren't able to do legally, private companies started doing.

...now that the infrastructure is there to put us ALL under surveillance (you love your government++ don't you?) courtesy of private enterprise.

...we have no need to create laws to protect our privacy

 
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31. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 4, 2015, 17:58 Asmodai
 
Verno wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 14:43:
I wouldn't go that far. People are lumping a bunch of different settings and headlines together. Lots of misinformation and assumptions like the guy below who thought Windows 10 is an annual sub. For example if you use Cortana that info will be sent to Microsoft servers, that's how it works but OMG KEYLOGGER headline. I don't use Edge but I'm sure it has some sort of setting to send anonymized data too, much like Firefox and Chrome. Of course your Microsoft Account has a history of your store purchases, how else would they register app ownership for reinstalls and updates. Some of them are dumb mobile related things that tie into the store that don't mean much and others are more serious and should be scrutinized. Their problem here is that all privacy settings should be opt in, not opt out but sadly that's a reflection of the times. That and the stupid Basic telemetry setting is forced which sends a list of installed programs. Its dumb and they should change it, I suspect it will be after all of the hoopla.

Of all the reasons not to use Windows 10, privacy is pretty small potatoes for me. There are real problems with the OS and things that might lead people to avoid it - they pointlessly shrank the taskbar icons 20px. They can't decide on a UI and there are like 8 conflicting ones in things like context menus. Half of the settings exist inside of the Modern settings app and others are still in legacy control panel. Some settings were removed but now have no replacement in the modern UI. They have an obsession with this flat theming that looks awful and makes navigating the UI more difficult. Wake Timers can be abused by apps and mess with S3 sleep. Windows Update doesn't let you pick and choose anymore which is really fucking annoying. Don't give me drivers jesus come on, let me choose that shit. Multi-monitor support is improved in respects and worse in others which is really frustrating, they've had a lot of time to fix it.

Worrying about whether or not they know Steam is installed is pretty low on my list compared to the above for me. Likewise I don't rush out and cancel Netflix because they catalogued my viewing of Sharknado 3 and might sell it to someone. Or throw away my Fire TV because they know I use Netflix a lot to watch shitty movies. I think it's silly because they could easily avoid all of this bad PR by just making it all opt in but corporations are rarely lauded for their forward thinking.

Which is all fine and well... For you...

The reason why there is so much misinformation isn't just the usual chinese whispers or people going out of their way to make MS look bad, it's that MS has gone out of their way to keep some of this stuff under wraps/obscure to boot, and it appears like the decisions you make as a user are not final.

If they were up front about it and let the users make informed choices, most commentators would probably ridicule the excessively intrusive nature of the OS but concede that no one is twisting any arms, or relying on ignorance to sneak things through.

eg. In Australia, for the most part, internet is still metered and we're still have a large part of the country using ADSL1. Your machine is streaming out P2P updates for Win 10 to the rest of the world is really going to play merry havoc with streaming VOD, unless you've set up QOS (and if you know how to set up QOS, you can probably find the settings for turning off the P2P updating...). It's just something that the user should be aware of and let them make the choice.
 
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30. Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 4, 2015, 17:51 HorrorScope
 
Frags4Fun wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 14:37:
Drayth wrote on Aug 4, 2015, 14:29:
There's no annual subscription. The free upgrade is for life on the device that is upgraded.

Then I was misinformed. I apologize.

FWIW that has been somewhat gray since MS won't definitively answer the question without short non-emcompassing answers, not yearly but what does life of device exactly mean? I assure you we know what we think/want it to mean, however may not be case. This isn't to say it won't be, but there is perhaps wiggle room for them since they won't clearly squash it. Honestly it reminds me of a 360 my son once had, there are questions to some settings but things are just to vague, noting online, call no answer. One of my fav was you had to have a credit card on file at least for the fist year or two, not sure if that ever changed.

That said, they don't need to collect cash for the O/S since they must be making as much or more data mining us. That is the catch we now know.

This comment was edited on Aug 4, 2015, 18:03.
 
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