Valve on Steam Scams

Valve has updated their Scam FAQ according to PCGamesN, saying they will no longer be returning items to scam victims, saying "All trade scams can be avoided." To that end, they offer an extensive guide on scam avoidance. Here's the explanation for why items will not be returned:
Our community assigns an item a value that is at least partially determined by that item's scarcity. If more copies of the item are added to the economy through inventory rollbacks, the value of every other instance of that item would be reduced.

We sympathize with people who fall victim to scams, but we provide enough information on our website and within our trading system to help users make good trading decisions. All trade scams can be avoided.
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34.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jul 1, 2015, 21:35
34.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jul 1, 2015, 21:35
Jul 1, 2015, 21:35
 
Krovven wrote on Jul 1, 2015, 18:39:
How do you know they weren't abusing the system? If you looked on the forums, there were people admitting they were doing exactly that. Buy, bad review, refund, buy, bad review refund, etc. Assholes were testing the new system and abusing it any way they could. I'm not sure why you think this isn't the case.

This is the part I was missing. It never crossed my mind that this would be a thing. You should have said that in your initial reply. I didn't understand how a single refund of a game with technical issues applied to the conversation at all about "cycling refunds". I still think that's bonkers though and that there is likely very few people doing that compared to the amount who performed a simple single refund. And I still think that it is unsustainable. I don't know what Valve is doing, but they said they would be looking out for abuse, this would definitely qualify.
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33.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jul 1, 2015, 18:39
33.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jul 1, 2015, 18:39
Jul 1, 2015, 18:39
 
Sepharo wrote on Jun 30, 2015, 23:45:

You're still missing the point, he was referring to the sustainability of repeatedly cheating in a game by abusing the refund system. The people who got refunds on Arkham weren't abusing the system.

I'm not missing the point at all, but you seem to be missing mine. Yes, what was specifically being discussed was cheating by repeatedly using refunds. As I've already stated, cheating this way is a symptom of another problem. A problem that is not going to go away. A problem that will be abused and will continually be tested and taken advantage of as long as it exists.

You can discuss the impact of the problem with relation to cheating all you like. That doesn't change that it's not the core of the problem.

How do you know they weren't abusing the system? If you looked on the forums, there were people admitting they were doing exactly that. Buy, bad review, refund, buy, bad review refund, etc. Assholes were testing the new system and abusing it any way they could. I'm not sure why you think this isn't the case.

You really think that all the refunds and bad reviews were all from legitimate people with legitimate complaints? That's just naive considering how long you've been around Steam and seen what people do to game the system any way they can, especially when it comes to new features. This isn't the first, nor the last game to get review bombed on Steam. Now people can just do it more than once. Again, there is no dispute on this...people posted that they were doing exactly this.

32.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 30, 2015, 23:45
32.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 30, 2015, 23:45
Jun 30, 2015, 23:45
 
Krovven wrote on Jun 30, 2015, 23:38:
Sepharo wrote on Jun 28, 2015, 15:28:
Krovven wrote on Jun 28, 2015, 15:19:
Sepharo wrote on Jun 28, 2015, 00:33:
Krovven wrote on Jun 28, 2015, 00:08:
Satoru wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 20:38:
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 00:51:
There is another certain "scam" going on, or perhaps a better way to label it is "gaming the system", but in many multiplayer games, the steam refunds policy is biting players in the ass right now, with cheaters purchasing games for almost exactly 1 hour and fifty minutes, going to wreck shit on servers where they got owned and can't compete properly, and then getting a refund and repeating the process. VAC and the other assorted anti-cheats out there don't catch them generally in this small window of time and I've not heard of anyone being punished for this behavior. This is happening in many steam multiplayer games currently.

You can't really sustain this

1) You have to haven a valid payment method
2) Steam tracks these things
3) Steam already is sending nasty-grams to people who do 'too many refunds'
4) note even if you 'kite cards' you still have the orignal purchase money that you HAVE to spend somehow.
5) Steam refunds take anywhere from 2-7 days so constantly cycling the card is impratical

Its really a short term 'herp derp' thing. But its unsustainable long term because it requires constant recycling of a valid payment method, which Valve WILL black list at some point if they want to. Cycling pre-paid cards is EXPENSIVE to do with all the fees associated with using them.

Its likely people are simply ascribing the cheaters they see with the new policy, rather than say the fact that CSGO was dirt cheap during the sale and thus attracts lots of new cheating accounts anyway.

It doesn't matter if it doesn't appear sustainable to you. People will find a way. Right now they are doing it because they can and testing the boundaries. It costs them nothing.

I wrote about this the other day. It's the main reason Arkham Knight was removed, not out of the goodness of their hearts. Just because you don't want to believe it, doesn't make it so.


Arkham Knight has multiplayer that people hack in?
Are you following the conversation?

Multiplayer griefing is a symptom of the problem. Recycling refunds is the source of the problem. Are you keeping up with the conversation?

We were talking about the refund policy possibly increasing the amount/rate of cheaters in multiplayer games. You jumped in and disagreed with nothing to add other than essentially "you're wrong" and then said, "It's the main reason Arkham Knight was removed". Even if we disregard that the conversation was about using the grace period to cheat in games repeatedly, the main reason that Akrham Knight was removed wasn't people cycling refunds... it was people getting a refund plain and simple, and they got refunds because of technical issues they were having with the game or being dissatisfied with it within the first 2 weeks or first 2 hours of play.

Not sure what bug got in your bonnet with this. The only thing that I disagreed with is it not being sustainable. The people that will do it, will find a way and cited the Arkham situation as an example. Really not sure what you are arguing.

You're still missing the point, he was referring to the sustainability of repeatedly cheating in a game by abusing the refund system. The people who got refunds on Arkham weren't abusing the system.
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31.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 30, 2015, 23:38
31.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 30, 2015, 23:38
Jun 30, 2015, 23:38
 
Sepharo wrote on Jun 28, 2015, 15:28:
We were talking about the refund policy possibly increasing the amount/rate of cheaters in multiplayer games. You jumped in and disagreed with nothing to add other than essentially "you're wrong" and then said, "It's the main reason Arkham Knight was removed". Even if we disregard that the conversation was about using the grace period to cheat in games repeatedly, the main reason that Akrham Knight was removed wasn't people cycling refunds... it was people getting a refund plain and simple, and they got refunds because of technical issues they were having with the game or being dissatisfied with it within the first 2 weeks or first 2 hours of play.

Not sure what bug got in your bonnet with this. The only thing that I disagreed with is it not being sustainable. The people that will do it, will find a way and cited the Arkham situation as an example. Really not sure what you are arguing.

This comment was edited on Jul 1, 2015, 18:39.
30.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 28, 2015, 17:54
30.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 28, 2015, 17:54
Jun 28, 2015, 17:54
 
I think he was stating that Arkham Knight was pulled likely because of the huge amounts of refunds they were getting from it. It was a good move on their part, because people who buy a broken game and return it are likely to not order the game again once it's fixed, as they have probably moved on to something new or decided they will just get it on discount further on down the road. Not to mention the fact it's a single player game and many people will just pirate it (maybe even just to see if it runs well on their system finally..) and they won't see *any* profit from it at that point.
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29.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 28, 2015, 15:28
29.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 28, 2015, 15:28
Jun 28, 2015, 15:28
 
Krovven wrote on Jun 28, 2015, 15:19:
Sepharo wrote on Jun 28, 2015, 00:33:
Krovven wrote on Jun 28, 2015, 00:08:
Satoru wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 20:38:
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 00:51:
There is another certain "scam" going on, or perhaps a better way to label it is "gaming the system", but in many multiplayer games, the steam refunds policy is biting players in the ass right now, with cheaters purchasing games for almost exactly 1 hour and fifty minutes, going to wreck shit on servers where they got owned and can't compete properly, and then getting a refund and repeating the process. VAC and the other assorted anti-cheats out there don't catch them generally in this small window of time and I've not heard of anyone being punished for this behavior. This is happening in many steam multiplayer games currently.

You can't really sustain this

1) You have to haven a valid payment method
2) Steam tracks these things
3) Steam already is sending nasty-grams to people who do 'too many refunds'
4) note even if you 'kite cards' you still have the orignal purchase money that you HAVE to spend somehow.
5) Steam refunds take anywhere from 2-7 days so constantly cycling the card is impratical

Its really a short term 'herp derp' thing. But its unsustainable long term because it requires constant recycling of a valid payment method, which Valve WILL black list at some point if they want to. Cycling pre-paid cards is EXPENSIVE to do with all the fees associated with using them.

Its likely people are simply ascribing the cheaters they see with the new policy, rather than say the fact that CSGO was dirt cheap during the sale and thus attracts lots of new cheating accounts anyway.

It doesn't matter if it doesn't appear sustainable to you. People will find a way. Right now they are doing it because they can and testing the boundaries. It costs them nothing.

I wrote about this the other day. It's the main reason Arkham Knight was removed, not out of the goodness of their hearts. Just because you don't want to believe it, doesn't make it so.


Arkham Knight has multiplayer that people hack in?
Are you following the conversation?

Multiplayer griefing is a symptom of the problem. Recycling refunds is the source of the problem. Are you keeping up with the conversation?

We were talking about the refund policy possibly increasing the amount/rate of cheaters in multiplayer games. You jumped in and disagreed with nothing to add other than essentially "you're wrong" and then said, "It's the main reason Arkham Knight was removed". Even if we disregard that the conversation was about using the grace period to cheat in games repeatedly, the main reason that Akrham Knight was removed wasn't people cycling refunds... it was people getting a refund plain and simple, and they got refunds because of technical issues they were having with the game or being dissatisfied with it within the first 2 weeks or first 2 hours of play.
Avatar 17249
28.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 28, 2015, 15:19
28.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 28, 2015, 15:19
Jun 28, 2015, 15:19
 
Sepharo wrote on Jun 28, 2015, 00:33:
Krovven wrote on Jun 28, 2015, 00:08:
Satoru wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 20:38:
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 00:51:
There is another certain "scam" going on, or perhaps a better way to label it is "gaming the system", but in many multiplayer games, the steam refunds policy is biting players in the ass right now, with cheaters purchasing games for almost exactly 1 hour and fifty minutes, going to wreck shit on servers where they got owned and can't compete properly, and then getting a refund and repeating the process. VAC and the other assorted anti-cheats out there don't catch them generally in this small window of time and I've not heard of anyone being punished for this behavior. This is happening in many steam multiplayer games currently.

You can't really sustain this

1) You have to haven a valid payment method
2) Steam tracks these things
3) Steam already is sending nasty-grams to people who do 'too many refunds'
4) note even if you 'kite cards' you still have the orignal purchase money that you HAVE to spend somehow.
5) Steam refunds take anywhere from 2-7 days so constantly cycling the card is impratical

Its really a short term 'herp derp' thing. But its unsustainable long term because it requires constant recycling of a valid payment method, which Valve WILL black list at some point if they want to. Cycling pre-paid cards is EXPENSIVE to do with all the fees associated with using them.

Its likely people are simply ascribing the cheaters they see with the new policy, rather than say the fact that CSGO was dirt cheap during the sale and thus attracts lots of new cheating accounts anyway.

It doesn't matter if it doesn't appear sustainable to you. People will find a way. Right now they are doing it because they can and testing the boundaries. It costs them nothing.

I wrote about this the other day. It's the main reason Arkham Knight was removed, not out of the goodness of their hearts. Just because you don't want to believe it, doesn't make it so.


Arkham Knight has multiplayer that people hack in?
Are you following the conversation?

Multiplayer griefing is a symptom of the problem. Recycling refunds is the source of the problem. Are you keeping up with the conversation?
27.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 28, 2015, 00:33
27.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 28, 2015, 00:33
Jun 28, 2015, 00:33
 
Krovven wrote on Jun 28, 2015, 00:08:
Satoru wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 20:38:
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 00:51:
There is another certain "scam" going on, or perhaps a better way to label it is "gaming the system", but in many multiplayer games, the steam refunds policy is biting players in the ass right now, with cheaters purchasing games for almost exactly 1 hour and fifty minutes, going to wreck shit on servers where they got owned and can't compete properly, and then getting a refund and repeating the process. VAC and the other assorted anti-cheats out there don't catch them generally in this small window of time and I've not heard of anyone being punished for this behavior. This is happening in many steam multiplayer games currently.

You can't really sustain this

1) You have to have a valid payment method
2) Steam tracks these things
3) Steam already is sending nasty-grams to people who do 'too many refunds'
4) note even if you 'kite cards' you still have the orignal purchase money that you HAVE to spend somehow.
5) Steam refunds take anywhere from 2-7 days so constantly cycling the card is impratical

Its really a short term 'herp derp' thing. But its unsustainable long term because it requires constant recycling of a valid payment method, which Valve WILL black list at some point if they want to. Cycling pre-paid cards is EXPENSIVE to do with all the fees associated with using them.

Its likely people are simply ascribing the cheaters they see with the new policy, rather than say the fact that CSGO was dirt cheap during the sale and thus attracts lots of new cheating accounts anyway.

It doesn't matter if it doesn't appear sustainable to you. People will find a way. Right now they are doing it because they can and testing the boundaries. It costs them nothing.

I wrote about this the other day. It's the main reason Arkham Knight was removed, not out of the goodness of their hearts. Just because you don't want to believe it, doesn't make it so.


Arkham Knight has multiplayer that people hack in?
Are you following the conversation?
Avatar 17249
26.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 28, 2015, 00:08
26.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 28, 2015, 00:08
Jun 28, 2015, 00:08
 
Satoru wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 20:38:
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 00:51:
There is another certain "scam" going on, or perhaps a better way to label it is "gaming the system", but in many multiplayer games, the steam refunds policy is biting players in the ass right now, with cheaters purchasing games for almost exactly 1 hour and fifty minutes, going to wreck shit on servers where they got owned and can't compete properly, and then getting a refund and repeating the process. VAC and the other assorted anti-cheats out there don't catch them generally in this small window of time and I've not heard of anyone being punished for this behavior. This is happening in many steam multiplayer games currently.

You can't really sustain this

1) You have to have a valid payment method
2) Steam tracks these things
3) Steam already is sending nasty-grams to people who do 'too many refunds'
4) note even if you 'kite cards' you still have the orignal purchase money that you HAVE to spend somehow.
5) Steam refunds take anywhere from 2-7 days so constantly cycling the card is impratical

Its really a short term 'herp derp' thing. But its unsustainable long term because it requires constant recycling of a valid payment method, which Valve WILL black list at some point if they want to. Cycling pre-paid cards is EXPENSIVE to do with all the fees associated with using them.

Its likely people are simply ascribing the cheaters they see with the new policy, rather than say the fact that CSGO was dirt cheap during the sale and thus attracts lots of new cheating accounts anyway.

It doesn't matter if it doesn't appear sustainable to you. People will find a way. Right now they are doing it because they can and testing the boundaries. It costs them nothing.

I wrote about this the other day. It's the main reason Arkham Knight was removed, not out of the goodness of their hearts. Just because you don't want to believe it, doesn't make it so.

25.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 27, 2015, 20:46
25.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 27, 2015, 20:46
Jun 27, 2015, 20:46
 
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 20:12:
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 17:07:
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 14:43:
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 01:28:
VAC at least on Steam servers is based on Steam ID, so refund wouldn't prevent ban.

Throwaway account are created for free, single game bought, then refunded. Ip address isn't important because vpn can be used and it most definitely is happening. Vac ban simply doesn't matter, even if they are caught in that short time window.

Well that seems very easy to avoid but Steam as usual is apparently half-assing everything. Since payment provider listed would definitely not "rotate" ;p

Prepaid cards work on steam just as well as anywhere else.

Heh, not sure what you could do against that, aside from not allowing refunds with prepaid cards. If cheaters go to that effort though then wow Considering they can be defeated by any active server admin. But I admit that this is an interesting loophole you mention.
Avatar 54727
24.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 27, 2015, 20:38
24.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 27, 2015, 20:38
Jun 27, 2015, 20:38
 
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 00:51:
There is another certain "scam" going on, or perhaps a better way to label it is "gaming the system", but in many multiplayer games, the steam refunds policy is biting players in the ass right now, with cheaters purchasing games for almost exactly 1 hour and fifty minutes, going to wreck shit on servers where they got owned and can't compete properly, and then getting a refund and repeating the process. VAC and the other assorted anti-cheats out there don't catch them generally in this small window of time and I've not heard of anyone being punished for this behavior. This is happening in many steam multiplayer games currently.

You can't really sustain this

1) You have to have a valid payment method
2) Steam tracks these things
3) Steam already is sending nasty-grams to people who do 'too many refunds'
4) note even if you 'kite cards' you still have the orignal purchase money that you HAVE to spend somehow.
5) Steam refunds take anywhere from 2-7 days so constantly cycling the card is impratical

Its really a short term 'herp derp' thing. But its unsustainable long term because it requires constant recycling of a valid payment method, which Valve WILL black list at some point if they want to. Cycling pre-paid cards is EXPENSIVE to do with all the fees associated with using them.

Its likely people are simply ascribing the cheaters they see with the new policy, rather than say the fact that CSGO was dirt cheap during the sale and thus attracts lots of new cheating accounts anyway.
23.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 27, 2015, 20:12
23.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 27, 2015, 20:12
Jun 27, 2015, 20:12
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 17:07:
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 14:43:
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 01:28:
VAC at least on Steam servers is based on Steam ID, so refund wouldn't prevent ban.

Throwaway account are created for free, single game bought, then refunded. Ip address isn't important because vpn can be used and it most definitely is happening. Vac ban simply doesn't matter, even if they are caught in that short time window.

Well that seems very easy to avoid but Steam as usual is apparently half-assing everything. Since payment provider listed would definitely not "rotate" ;p

Prepaid cards work on steam just as well as anywhere else.
Avatar 56178
22.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 27, 2015, 17:07
22.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 27, 2015, 17:07
Jun 27, 2015, 17:07
 
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 14:43:
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 01:28:
VAC at least on Steam servers is based on Steam ID, so refund wouldn't prevent ban.

Throwaway account are created for free, single game bought, then refunded. Ip address isn't important because vpn can be used and it most definitely is happening. Vac ban simply doesn't matter, even if they are caught in that short time window.

Well that seems very easy to avoid but Steam as usual is apparently half-assing everything. Since payment provider listed would definitely not "rotate" ;p
Avatar 54727
21.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 27, 2015, 16:29
21.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 27, 2015, 16:29
Jun 27, 2015, 16:29
 
Why do they need more than 3 customer service employees
not like they write any of these games or the fact they have 100's of FAQ's to help people plus forums for people to get help
maybe people just like to have there hand held that will be 19.99 please

NKD wrote on Jun 26, 2015, 17:51:
Valve is the biggest proponent of "fend for yourselves" in gaming. Not surprising. Good to see they won't be wasting the time of the 3 people they employee in customer service on easy to avoid scams now.
20.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 27, 2015, 14:43
20.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 27, 2015, 14:43
Jun 27, 2015, 14:43
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 01:28:
VAC at least on Steam servers is based on Steam ID, so refund wouldn't prevent ban.

Throwaway account are created for free, single game bought, then refunded. Ip address isn't important because vpn can be used and it most definitely is happening. Vac ban simply doesn't matter, even if they are caught in that short time window.
Avatar 56178
19.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 27, 2015, 06:15
NKD
19.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 27, 2015, 06:15
Jun 27, 2015, 06:15
NKD
 
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 00:51:
There is another certain "scam" going on, or perhaps a better way to label it is "gaming the system", but in many multiplayer games, the steam refunds policy is biting players in the ass right now, with cheaters purchasing games for almost exactly 1 hour and fifty minutes, going to wreck shit on servers where they got owned and can't compete properly, and then getting a refund and repeating the process. VAC and the other assorted anti-cheats out there don't catch them generally in this small window of time and I've not heard of anyone being punished for this behavior. This is happening in many steam multiplayer games currently.

Are you sure you're describing it correctly? The scheme you describe would not work, or at the very least, would be so impractical as to prevent it from ever being a serious problem.

You'd need a steady supply of new Steam accounts, new IP addresses, and new payment sources, as repeated abuse of any of these results in automated lockouts or bans. While I don't doubt that there are a few people with the will and the means to do that, it wouldn't be enough to even be a drop in the bucket in Steam's online community.

I sincerely doubt what you describe is happening, unless you've described it incorrectly.
Old man trouble back again
Fucking up my plans like oh no, oh no,
I'm back to the black again
Gettin fucked up again, oh no, oh no.
Avatar 43041
18.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 27, 2015, 01:28
18.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 27, 2015, 01:28
Jun 27, 2015, 01:28
 
VAC at least on Steam servers is based on Steam ID, so refund wouldn't prevent ban.
Avatar 54727
17.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 27, 2015, 01:24
17.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 27, 2015, 01:24
Jun 27, 2015, 01:24
 
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Jun 27, 2015, 00:51:
There is another certain "scam" going on, or perhaps a better way to label it is "gaming the system", but in many multiplayer games, the steam refunds policy is biting players in the ass right now, with cheaters purchasing games for almost exactly 1 hour and fifty minutes, going to wreck shit on servers where they got owned and can't compete properly, and then getting a refund and repeating the process. VAC and the other assorted anti-cheats out there don't catch them generally in this small window of time and I've not heard of anyone being punished for this behavior. This is happening in many steam multiplayer games currently.

That doesn't sound sustainable. Can somenoe refund/purchase/refund on the same game and on the same account? Even if they use different accounts doesn't each one still need a credit card? Should be easy to stop someone abusing that repeatedly.
How did you become aware of this scam?
Avatar 17249
16.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 27, 2015, 00:51
16.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 27, 2015, 00:51
Jun 27, 2015, 00:51
 
There is another certain "scam" going on, or perhaps a better way to label it is "gaming the system", but in many multiplayer games, the steam refunds policy is biting players in the ass right now, with cheaters purchasing games for almost exactly 1 hour and fifty minutes, going to wreck shit on servers where they got owned and can't compete properly, and then getting a refund and repeating the process. VAC and the other assorted anti-cheats out there don't catch them generally in this small window of time and I've not heard of anyone being punished for this behavior. This is happening in many steam multiplayer games currently.
Avatar 56178
15.
 
Re: Valve on Steam Scams
Jun 27, 2015, 00:18
15.
Re: Valve on Steam Scams Jun 27, 2015, 00:18
Jun 27, 2015, 00:18
 
Thanks for the info . KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK BLUE.
A mask is not a political statement. It's an IQ test.
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