ASeven wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 15:13:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X546RqY1OBw

Ugh, even ignoring the video creator's bias, that paints a pretty terrible picture of Sunset/Tale of Tales. Nice Tweets at the end also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X546RqY1OBw

Icewind wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 11:44:
Translation:

We tried to make something we would like instead of something gamers at large would like, thus it failed. It doesn't help that we are hipsters either.

I read it as "We are geniuses but you people are too dumb to see and understand this. But in 10,000,000 years from now, when apes rule the world, they will find a boxed version of our brilliant game and will worship us as gods, YOU STUPID HOMO SAPIENS MAGGOTS!

ViRGE wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 07:40:

Jerykk wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 04:25:
The issue is that the game's premise holds little to no appeal for most gamers, hence the terrible sales. The fact that the developers considered Sunset a "gamer's game" shows a major disconnect with their target audience, which is again reinforced by the lackluster sales.

Now I'm curious, what would the crowd here consider a "gamer's game" anyhow?

It seems to be it would be something like Super Mario Bros/Super Mario Galaxy: heavy on the gameplay, lots of variety, and easy to play but very difficult to master.

I'd consider a gamer's game to be any game that focuses on gameplay above all else. Mario, Quake, UT, Street Fighter, Dark Souls, etc. Sunset? Not so much.

Translation:

We tried to make something we would like instead of something gamers at large would like, thus it failed. It doesn't help that we are hipsters either.

briktal wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 10:07:

The thing is, a game can push the envelope, explore new concepts, and all that cool artsy stuff but it can still suck or fail at its goals. Art style/quality, voice and other sound, controls, UI, performance and other production value/polish elements can really help a game like this succeed.

Except this game did none of that. In fact, it was worse than some of the shovelware back in the 90's and that's saying something. Not only did the developers fail to read their audience, they failed even the basic elements of game design.

Maybe they should have made it a MoBA, where you have to kill waves of dust bunnies.

Slick wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 05:25:

saluk wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 02:51:

Slick wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 02:25:

Kosumo wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 01:03:
Leave harlock and his meds out of it, I'm happy I'm helping both him and me by buying them off him for cheap.

P.S. I think Slick really hates what in his mind is most of use Blue's users (a sterotype), he does seem to be arguing with 'you people' which I don't think anyone else knows who it is.

alright, i'm just going to stop repeating myself. if you can't see any logic in my arguments, then leave it alone.

if you can't understand me saying "you people" then you haven't been paying attention. i'm talking to everyone in this thread who's poopoo-ed this developer for A) not being "AAA" mainstream enough, and B) for pre-judging a game that literally no one here has played. and C) for pissing on the wounds of some people who have just lost everything. if you can't understand that, then you like everyone else in this thread are totally immune to irony.

remember this thread next time you see a headline that reads: "blizzard reduces upcoming game to 4 classes to be more user-friendly" and ALL YOU PEOPLE go bananas about it, clamoring for more fringe titles that aren't afraid to "take creative chances" LOL

You have to have something in order to lose it. Having a dream and realizing after a long time that that dream doesn't match reality is not quite the same. This developer has found after much effort that the market they are currently aiming at just isn't big enough. Sucks that they spent a lot in following this path, but now that they have woken up, perhaps they can find their true path - either the individuals who mistakenly believed in this dream, or the collective as a whole.

I'm all for taking creative chances, and I actually really love all of the groups experimenting with interactive experiences to go beyond just games. I think some great innovations for real games may come out of experiments like these. But it's called a risk for a reason. You have to know that the risk may not pay off. I hope they learn the right lessons from their failures.

wait, what's this? a reasoned and well thought out reply?!

WHAT IS HAPPENING.

and yes, it absolutely takes people taking chances to push things forward, and everyone benefits. The best ideas always sound a bit daft the first time someone utters them. That's why this stuff should be encouraged, and not spat upon.

It seems like a total flip-flop from the usual, i gotta say, this thread has been very confusing at times. how often do we hear "they failed cause they didn't do what every other game does enough, gamers want more of stuff they're already familiar with" on this board?

I totally feel the warm fuzzies of "hey cool, something new, something I haven't seen before" when I read about games like this. not necessarily a game i'll play, but in my heart of hearts I support it. Gaming is such a young medium, we need to let it breathe.

in another thread some idiot was flipping out about how everything in the 90's was superior. it was because it was new. it was stuff we've never seen before. there was no 20 years of past titles to draw upon, it was fresh off the tree.

Games like sunset renew that "newness" to me, it sounds genuinely like something I 've never played before. I don't often get totally new experiences in gaming, and i'm not a jaded old husk that i will turn away the fuzzy "new" feeling that i adored in the 90's just because it's in 2015.

The thing is, a game can push the envelope, explore new concepts, and all that cool artsy stuff but it can still suck or fail at its goals. Art style/quality, voice and other sound, controls, UI, performance and other production value/polish elements can really help a game like this succeed.

Xero wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 08:51:
Don't know much about this game as I never heard of it, but a quick shot over to the Steam page and at the reviews, most are negative, lol.

Can't imagine where they went wrong either!

Basically this. I was tempted to buy it just to see what the hell the fuss was about, but there are plenty of negative Steam reviews from actual owners of the game, pointing out the basic mechanics are terrible.

Doesn't sound like a game for gamers from those player reviews; whatever that game would actually be, one would assume it would be fun to play.

We even took out an advertisement on Rock, Paper, Shotgun, where we figured the people most interested in Sunset would be gathered. They must all use AdBlock because that had no effect whatsoever.

From what I've seen over the years, the only place where advertising actually works is on Penny Arcade because Gabe and Tycho will actually draw attention to it by mentioning it in their posts and asking people to go buy the game. I'm pretty sure that the large majority of RPS visitors have adblock on, or ignore all the ads.

Anyway, yeah, it sucks. You made a game, it didn't sell. This happens to most games.

Don't know much about this game as I never heard of it, but a quick shot over to the Steam page and at the reviews, most are negative, lol.

Can't imagine where they went wrong either!

NKD wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 04:12:

We don’t have to take advice from anybody anymore. We were wrong. Everybody whom we consulted with on Sunset was wrong.

It's worth noting that their main consultant was Leigh "Gamers are dead. Gamers don't have to be your audience." Alexander, Alcoholic and SJW.

Seems like if you want to actually make some money selling a PC game, gamers DO have to be your audience!

Hahaha that figures. I hate to see any dev fail but its a business and they misread their audience. They don't deserve antagonism but they don't deserve sympathy either, shit happens.

ViRGE wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 07:40:
Now I'm curious, what would the crowd here consider a "gamer's game" anyhow?

It seems to be it would be something like Super Mario Bros/Super Mario Galaxy: heavy on the gameplay, lots of variety, and easy to play but very difficult to master.

Sounds about right, since most of us here are from the olde school realm of gaming. Where there wasn't really any hand holding and manuals came in 170 page books that required reading before you started to play.

Jerykk wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 04:25:
The issue is that the game's premise holds little to no appeal for most gamers, hence the terrible sales. The fact that the developers considered Sunset a "gamer's game" shows a major disconnect with their target audience, which is again reinforced by the lackluster sales.

Now I'm curious, what would the crowd here consider a "gamer's game" anyhow?

It seems to be it would be something like Super Mario Bros/Super Mario Galaxy: heavy on the gameplay, lots of variety, and easy to play but very difficult to master.

NKD wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 04:12:

We don’t have to take advice from anybody anymore. We were wrong. Everybody whom we consulted with on Sunset was wrong.

It's worth noting that their main consultant was Leigh "Gamers are dead. Gamers don't have to be your audience." Alexander, Alcoholic and SJW.

Add in the advertisement in RPS which no real gamer visits. Live by the SJW audience, die by the SJW audience for your game.

saluk wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 02:51:

Slick wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 02:25:

Kosumo wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 01:03:
Leave harlock and his meds out of it, I'm happy I'm helping both him and me by buying them off him for cheap.

P.S. I think Slick really hates what in his mind is most of use Blue's users (a sterotype), he does seem to be arguing with 'you people' which I don't think anyone else knows who it is.

alright, i'm just going to stop repeating myself. if you can't see any logic in my arguments, then leave it alone.

if you can't understand me saying "you people" then you haven't been paying attention. i'm talking to everyone in this thread who's poopoo-ed this developer for A) not being "AAA" mainstream enough, and B) for pre-judging a game that literally no one here has played. and C) for pissing on the wounds of some people who have just lost everything. if you can't understand that, then you like everyone else in this thread are totally immune to irony.

remember this thread next time you see a headline that reads: "blizzard reduces upcoming game to 4 classes to be more user-friendly" and ALL YOU PEOPLE go bananas about it, clamoring for more fringe titles that aren't afraid to "take creative chances" LOL

You have to have something in order to lose it. Having a dream and realizing after a long time that that dream doesn't match reality is not quite the same. This developer has found after much effort that the market they are currently aiming at just isn't big enough. Sucks that they spent a lot in following this path, but now that they have woken up, perhaps they can find their true path - either the individuals who mistakenly believed in this dream, or the collective as a whole.

I'm all for taking creative chances, and I actually really love all of the groups experimenting with interactive experiences to go beyond just games. I think some great innovations for real games may come out of experiments like these. But it's called a risk for a reason. You have to know that the risk may not pay off. I hope they learn the right lessons from their failures.

wait, what's this? a reasoned and well thought out reply?!

WHAT IS HAPPENING.

and yes, it absolutely takes people taking chances to push things forward, and everyone benefits. The best ideas always sound a bit daft the first time someone utters them. That's why this stuff should be encouraged, and not spat upon.

It seems like a total flip-flop from the usual, i gotta say, this thread has been very confusing at times. how often do we hear "they failed cause they didn't do what every other game does enough, gamers want more of stuff they're already familiar with" on this board?

I totally feel the warm fuzzies of "hey cool, something new, something I haven't seen before" when I read about games like this. not necessarily a game i'll play, but in my heart of hearts I support it. Gaming is such a young medium, we need to let it breathe.

in another thread some idiot was flipping out about how everything in the 90's was superior. it was because it was new. it was stuff we've never seen before. there was no 20 years of past titles to draw upon, it was fresh off the tree.

Games like sunset renew that "newness" to me, it sounds genuinely like something I 've never played before. I don't often get totally new experiences in gaming, and i'm not a jaded old husk that i will turn away the fuzzy "new" feeling that i adored in the 90's just because it's in 2015.

Slick wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 02:25:

Kosumo wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 01:03:
Leave harlock and his meds out of it, I'm happy I'm helping both him and me by buying them off him for cheap.

P.S. I think Slick really hates what in his mind is most of use Blue's users (a sterotype), he does seem to be arguing with 'you people' which I don't think anyone else knows who it is.

alright, i'm just going to stop repeating myself. if you can't see any logic in my arguments, then leave it alone.

if you can't understand me saying "you people" then you haven't been paying attention. i'm talking to everyone in this thread who's poopoo-ed this developer for A) not being "AAA" mainstream enough, and B) for pre-judging a game that literally no one here has played. and C) for pissing on the wounds of some people who have just lost everything. if you can't understand that, then you like everyone else in this thread are totally immune to irony.

remember this thread next time you see a headline that reads: "blizzard reduces upcoming game to 4 classes to be more user-friendly" and ALL YOU PEOPLE go bananas about it, clamoring for more fringe titles that aren't afraid to "take creative chances" LOL

I'm not sure how you keep misunderstanding the reasons for criticism here. You argue that people shouldn't judge the game without playing it. Sure, I agree, except judgment of the game isn't the issue here. The issue is that the game's premise holds little to no appeal for most gamers, hence the terrible sales. The fact that the developers considered Sunset a "gamer's game" shows a major disconnect with their target audience, which is again reinforced by the lackluster sales.

Innovation is all well and good but you need to know your target audience and what they want. You take what they want, improve it, expand it, put a spin on it... but you still ultimately give them what they want. That's how innovation succeeds in the marketplace. Tale of Tales did not understand this and their angry rant isn't going to garner them any sympathy.

We don’t have to take advice from anybody anymore. We were wrong. Everybody whom we consulted with on Sunset was wrong.

It's worth noting that their main consultant was Leigh "Gamers are dead. Gamers don't have to be your audience." Alexander, Alcoholic and SJW.

Seems like if you want to actually make some money selling a PC game, gamers DO have to be your audience!

Cutter wrote on Jun 21, 2015, 21:23:
And this is why you don't design by committee. They obviously had no vision or passion. The most successful things come about because of those two things. Someone asked John Lennon once how the Beatles wrote so many hits. He replied, they never tried to write hits. They were just writing music they themselves wanted to hear. And being for average working class lads there were millions just like them around the world who wanted the same thing.

But yeah, I guess it's everyone else that's the problem for not realizing they're hipster geniuses.

The thing about the beatles is that they did consciously try to write "hits", and that is absolutely evident in their history of songwriting and music, especially in the early days when they first got popular.

There are many stories about the beatles holed up in nightclubs & various writing sessions getting high on bar-supplied dexedrine all night long, and copying the sounds of blues, rock and pop hits to produce the music they did. They didn't just create the hits, they re-made the hits (or just liberally borrowed portions/riffs from them) while putting in lyrics that generated the most money/pussy at the time. Every other word being "me/I", "you", "love", "girl". It was obviously a smart move on their part because they became the friggin Beatles after all.. but it was very focused and calculated on creating "hits", at the beginning, at least. The 2nd half of their time together they were able to break away from that formula effectively because they already had all the money they needed and fans that would buy up anything they released after that point, which also turned out to be quite good. So maybe we can just call that a "half-truth" from Mr. Lennon.

This comment was edited on Jun 22, 2015, 03:38.

SlimRam wrote on Jun 22, 2015, 02:58:
How could this have failed? Perhaps it's just a subconscious nod to the devs true calling: House Keeping

That's easy, all the consultants they hired for PR and so on were the same ones that pushed the "gamers are dead" articles in august of last year. Funny huh? I guess gamers *do* have to be your audience if you want to make money.