Dota 2 Reborn Beta

The Dota 2 blog announces "Dota 2 Reborn" a reboot of Valve's MOBA that's entering beta testing with a new engine (presumably Source 2, though those Unity guys are persistent) and more. Here's the deal:
Today we are announcing the Dota 2 Reborn Beta, which brings with it a new interface, new engine and Custom Games. Everything in the dashboard has been completely redesigned utilizing a new UI framework, and the engine that powers the game has been fully replaced. On today’s update page we will be giving you a preview of the new interface. Early next week we’ll be talking about Custom Games, and later that week we’ll conclude with various details about the new engine and launch the open beta.

Throughout the beta we’ll be releasing frequent updates in order to fix bugs and make changes based on the feedback you provide. As you browse around in the new client, you’ll notice a few things that aren’t fully functional yet. Additionally, our focus has been on the dashboard so you’ll find the in-game HUD currently looks the same.

We want you to help us during the beta with your suggestions and bug reports. Our intention is to keep gameplay and heroes looking and feeling the same, so if you find anything unexpected please let us know. We’ll be bringing the update out of beta some time after The International to ensure we have enough time to respond to all of your feedback.
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22.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 15, 2015, 02:16
22.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 15, 2015, 02:16
Jun 15, 2015, 02:16
 
ForgedReality wrote on Jun 15, 2015, 01:30:
Your first sentence invalidated everything afterward, so I didn't bother reading that drivel.

You already said you're not a DOTA player, so you're not a new player. You already gave up. Like a fucking pussy.

Please return to your cave, troll.

That post doesn't even make sense. If you didn't read my "drivel" you could have hardly found the 12th sentence in my first post
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21.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 15, 2015, 01:30
21.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 15, 2015, 01:30
Jun 15, 2015, 01:30
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 15, 2015, 00:54:
ForgedReality wrote on Jun 14, 2015, 11:24:
"I played 5 games, so I hate DOTA2."

Thanks for admitting your complete incompetence and invalidity of your opinion.

HotS is nowhere near as complex, deep, nuanced, or strategic as DOTA2. It has a huge learning curve, yes, but the rewards are greater than just about any other game I've played. At the same time, it can be just as crushing and frustrating though. Do well, and you love it. Do badly, and you hate it. You're probably in that latter camp.

Hah!... If anything your complete lack of empathy for a new DOTA 2 (in extension MOBA) player shows everything that is wrong with that community and why my first experiences in that moba were abysmal. And yeah, 5 plays vs humans is plenty enough to judge a moba after 30+ to learn how to play vs AI with a few chars and with COOP partner, that's how many I gave each MOBA I tried, DOTA 2, LoL and HotS. The shit-hole that is DOTA 2 ranked matches completely soured me from playing DOTA 2 altogether because of that constant toxicity even in the lowest ranked game modes.

Aside that it doesn't even matter, with 1000+ hours you have about as much reason to talk about casual MOBA play as Obama has owning the peace Nobel price. ^^

Your first sentence invalidated everything afterward, so I didn't bother reading that drivel.

You already said you're not a DOTA player, so you're not a new player. You already gave up. Like a fucking pussy.

Please return to your cave, troll.
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20.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 15, 2015, 00:54
20.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 15, 2015, 00:54
Jun 15, 2015, 00:54
 
ForgedReality wrote on Jun 14, 2015, 11:24:
"I played 5 games, so I hate DOTA2."

Thanks for admitting your complete incompetence and invalidity of your opinion.

HotS is nowhere near as complex, deep, nuanced, or strategic as DOTA2. It has a huge learning curve, yes, but the rewards are greater than just about any other game I've played. At the same time, it can be just as crushing and frustrating though. Do well, and you love it. Do badly, and you hate it. You're probably in that latter camp.

Hah!... If anything your complete lack of empathy for a new DOTA 2 (in extension MOBA) player shows everything that is wrong with that community and why my first experiences in that moba were abysmal. And yeah, 5 plays vs humans is plenty enough to judge a moba after 30+ to learn how to play vs AI with a few chars and with COOP partner, that's how many I gave each MOBA I tried, DOTA 2, LoL and HotS. The shit-hole that is DOTA 2 ranked matches completely soured me from playing DOTA 2 altogether because of that constant toxicity even in the lowest ranked game modes.

Aside that it doesn't even matter, with 1000+ hours you have about as much reason to talk about casual MOBA play as Obama has owning the peace Nobel price. ^^

This comment was edited on Jun 15, 2015, 01:01.
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19.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 14, 2015, 23:50
19.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 14, 2015, 23:50
Jun 14, 2015, 23:50
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Jun 14, 2015, 18:44:
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 20:36:
Sorry, but after HotS I can never go back to DOTA 2 ;p The removal of items, and the lanes no longer being sticky as fuck due to gold/xp only counting if you are involved in that kill, makes the game infinitely more smooth and fluid. It rewards strategic movement away from the lanes towards objectives and camps which believe it or not, can even happen in quick games. Maintaing the lanes is not even important anymore, as even a team pushed back to the citadel can turn an ENTIRE GAME AROUND by overwhelming an enemy that overextends their push.
You listed everything I DISLIKE about HotS. The lack of items makes for a more repetitive experience; the objectives mean everybody piles into one lane and it's chaos; the limited heroes ruin the experience and requires you to grind to unlock them.

I'm really looking forward to Dota 2 Reborn. I've put 160hrs into Dota 2 and it's one of my go to games.

I decided to check mine, and Steam says I have 1085 hours. Holy shit! How did that happen? :O

I'd never played a MOBA before DOTA2, and it was a jarring thing to have to learn. I remember the first game I played, knowing absolutely nothing about the game beforehand, I rushed down the middle lane, fully expecting to be able to fight right off the bat. I dove into the first tower and started attacking it, thinking that's what you're supposed to do. I got obliterated in seconds, obviously. My teammates immediately let me know that's now how things work in DOTA. Oops! :\

Since then, it's been an everlasting learning experience. Even after nearly 1100 hours, I'm still learning tactics and how to play. I love when a game has so much replayability, especially with only one map. It's astounding.
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18.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 14, 2015, 18:44
18.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 14, 2015, 18:44
Jun 14, 2015, 18:44
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 20:36:
Sorry, but after HotS I can never go back to DOTA 2 ;p The removal of items, and the lanes no longer being sticky as fuck due to gold/xp only counting if you are involved in that kill, makes the game infinitely more smooth and fluid. It rewards strategic movement away from the lanes towards objectives and camps which believe it or not, can even happen in quick games. Maintaing the lanes is not even important anymore, as even a team pushed back to the citadel can turn an ENTIRE GAME AROUND by overwhelming an enemy that overextends their push.
You listed everything I DISLIKE about HotS. The lack of items makes for a more repetitive experience; the objectives mean everybody piles into one lane and it's chaos; the limited heroes ruin the experience and requires you to grind to unlock them.

I'm really looking forward to Dota 2 Reborn. I've put 160hrs into Dota 2 and it's one of my go to games.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
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17.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 14, 2015, 14:17
17.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 14, 2015, 14:17
Jun 14, 2015, 14:17
 
Based on some posts here, I decided to download HOTS... never played a MOBA before, so this will be new for me.
16.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 14, 2015, 11:24
16.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 14, 2015, 11:24
Jun 14, 2015, 11:24
 
"I played 5 games, so I hate DOTA2."

Thanks for admitting your complete incompetence and invalidity of your opinion.

HotS is nowhere near as complex, deep, nuanced, or strategic as DOTA2. It has a huge learning curve, yes, but the rewards are greater than just about any other game I've played. At the same time, it can be just as crushing and frustrating though. Do well, and you love it. Do badly, and you hate it. You're probably in that latter camp.
Avatar 55267
15.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 14, 2015, 09:24
15.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 14, 2015, 09:24
Jun 14, 2015, 09:24
 
InBlack wrote on Jun 14, 2015, 04:38:
HOTS is turning out to be a really competitive little game, easy to learn, hard to master. Are you just playing Coop Eraser, because that score you mentioned seems kind of unrealistic...

I average about a 50% win rate, maybe a few percent more. On the Heroes League im way below 50% ATM. Im currently at a point where if one guy fucks up, the entire team loses. The kind of comebacks Eraser mentioned are still possible, but not very likely higher up on the matchmaking ladder.

Don't get me wrong Im enjoying the game, but its got waay more depth and difficulty, once you start getting into it a little bit more.

I am not yet at a rank where I can even play ranked games, all quick match and coop with a 1 other in group rank 17

39 games (41 actually, but it counts 2 intro tutorials BEFORE training mode too)
30 vs AI (28 Coop/ 2 Training) = 24 victories 4 loss (yes, I lost more against AI (and then also very very brutally, some AI combinations are just.. wow) than against normal people so far)
9 "quick games" 5 vs 5 random = 8 victories 1 loss (And there, mainly because I faced against that cloaked assassin which I never even had seen before) And that murlock thing, and that weird colored dragon thingy. 3 Enemies where I had no idea about skills and such is not a great combination to face off as gazlow. but live and learn eh

I actually have a 100% win-rate on certain maps so far, but 66% winrate on bounty bay or what it's called, I actually HATE that map but still had some awesome games on there, but it's way too early to tell. As you say... I expect things will get MUCH worse once it's ranked. But I am still far away from 10 characters unlocked which is required for that.. I have like.. 4, and AI coop play is how I unlock all skills and test all chars before I ever even enter vs normal people. It would be totally unfair for my team if I went there with a level 1 char ;p

Finding someone to play COOP is always a hassle though... I like the relaxing feel in that game-mode, and it teaches me my own chars skills, the best ranges and what not. And since it seems to give the same XP values.. and you have a daily limit of 2.25mio XP.. good way to get to that level 5 and those easy 500 gold per char ;p

This comment was edited on Jun 14, 2015, 09:31.
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14.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 14, 2015, 04:48
14.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 14, 2015, 04:48
Jun 14, 2015, 04:48
 
@osc8r - I completely agree. Hots seems very shallow. The skill curve is so mild that it feels like there's nothing new to see after a days play, which is unfortunate as i usually enjoy blizzard games. That said I've never been a big DOTA2 fan and haven't played LoL in years. Smite is easily the best game in the genre imo but the genre as a whole could do with shaking up a little.

I don't believe Hots/Babys first MOBA is the one to do it. And definitely not with such an insane money-grabbing pricing model.
13.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 14, 2015, 04:38
13.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 14, 2015, 04:38
Jun 14, 2015, 04:38
 
HOTS is turning out to be a really competitive little game, easy to learn, hard to master. Are you just playing Coop Eraser, because that score you mentioned seems kind of unrealistic...

I average about a 50% win rate, maybe a few percent more. On the Heroes League im way below 50% ATM. Im currently at a point where if one guy fucks up, the entire team loses. The kind of comebacks Eraser mentioned are still possible, but not very likely higher up on the matchmaking ladder.

Don't get me wrong Im enjoying the game, but its got waay more depth and difficulty, once you start getting into it a little bit more.
I have a nifty blue line!
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12.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 14, 2015, 03:46
12.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 14, 2015, 03:46
Jun 14, 2015, 03:46
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 20:36:
Or better put.. HotS is the casuals MOBA

To me it feels like a MOBA for newbies to the genre and casuals. Just as WOW did to the MMO genre - turning it all casual and noob friendly, HOTS is doing to the MOBA genre.

I tried to enjoy the game but it just felt a little lacking in depth and freedom... and the graphics and animations felt really 'clunky'.

At the end of the day, each to the own. Glad you found one you enjoy!

Dota with a new engine sounds great to me. Just wish they'd hurry up add more maps!
11.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 13, 2015, 23:56
11.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 13, 2015, 23:56
Jun 13, 2015, 23:56
 
Redmask wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 22:58:
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 22:20:
And no, DOTA 2 is not shallow. Items, Lanes, Minions and Upgrade path are VITAL in that game. This adds TONS of constant micro management to the game. Which is the kind of thing I really don't like

There is very little micromanagement in Dota unless you play a micro 'heavy' hero like Chen or Meepo. Most of the time you control one unit. You glance at your minimap and look at the screen, make decisions based on the action like pretty much any other game. Items are hotkeys, you memorize them within a few games or make your own. Your upgrade path is not a complex formula, you pick skills that you're comfortable with or ones that will help you win vs what you're facing.

Play whatever you find fun, I don't really care I just found your comment funny.

I think his point is that not a lot of people play Dota 2 this way because the general expectation is that you will use its inherent complexity past just doing what you want. Dota 2 players can be pretty brutal when it comes to playing your hero 'properly'.

HotS takes away the item fudging and perfect skill point placement at the right time and just makes a straight forward MOBA with fun at the core. Some people won't like it but Blizzard has always been about appeal to the broadest base of players. That usually means making people feel like they are doing something even if they thnk they are doing more than they are. Nothing wrong with that. I enjoy HotS a lot. And I don't much like MOBAs myself.
10.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 13, 2015, 23:18
10.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 13, 2015, 23:18
Jun 13, 2015, 23:18
 
Redmask wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 22:58:
Play whatever you find fun, I don't really care I just found your comment funny.

Well that's ok too To me micro management is also that I have to stick to a lane and constantly micro and deny the stupid minions. I find that very constraining (which to me, is part of "micro" "complexity" and "not fun" ;p)

In the end we all like different things, and hate other things that probably sound absurd to other people who like other things... so yeah

Maybe shouldn't have posted this in Dota 2 topic to prevent drawing this comparison as an opener, but there was no proper HotS topic! And really, we ought to talk about HotS, Blizzard doing a free to play game that's not grindy as fuck even "giving away" free heroes in a weekly rotation, so you can discover all of them as time passes? The world is ending, I tell you, ending! But of course, the real money prices are also completely absurd.
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9.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 13, 2015, 22:58
9.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 13, 2015, 22:58
Jun 13, 2015, 22:58
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 22:20:
And no, DOTA 2 is not shallow. Items, Lanes, Minions and Upgrade path are VITAL in that game. This adds TONS of constant micro management to the game. Which is the kind of thing I really don't like

There is very little micromanagement in Dota unless you play a micro 'heavy' hero like Chen or Meepo. Most of the time you control one unit. You glance at your minimap and look at the screen, make decisions based on the action like pretty much any other game. Items are hotkeys, you memorize them within a few games or make your own. Your upgrade path is not a complex formula, you pick skills that you're comfortable with or ones that will help you win vs what you're facing.

Play whatever you find fun, I don't really care I just found your comment funny.
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8.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 13, 2015, 22:20
8.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 13, 2015, 22:20
Jun 13, 2015, 22:20
 
Redmask wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 21:54:
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 20:36:
Sorry, but after HotS I can never go back to DOTA 2 ;p The removal of items, and the lanes no longer being sticky as fuck due to gold/xp only counting if you are involved in that kill, makes the game infinitely more smooth and fluid. It rewards strategic movement away from the lanes towards objectives and camps which believe it or not, can even happen in quick games. Maintaing the lanes is not even important anymore, as even a team pushed back to the citadel can turn an ENTIRE GAME AROUND by overwhelming an enemy that overextends their push.

This in turns makes games that are hugely open ended and not decided by 1 guy with tons of skill. If a public hodge pock team ends up in the same push behind a boss minion they just freed, then that is something you will literally never see happen organically in a random game in DOTA 2.. EVER.

I don't know how people describe Dota this way. I don't even care for it that much personally but those sorts of comebacks happen all the time, in fact the game was patched to try and lessen them because players felt the games yoyo'd too much. If a team plays like shit all game then they shouldn't be able to win through a single fudged push in my opinion, that's fucking retarded. HOTS is a game without much complexity, its just nonstop teamfights. If you like team fights without much nuance beyond 'i played my role properly and so did my team' then that's fine, some people like a little more depth which Dota barely even qualifies as.

MOBAs in general are not for me but I find the whole schtick of 'dota is too deep so it sucks!' to be a weird sentiment. It's not a particularly complex game to be blunt and HOTS is downright simplistic. If you have fun with either game then cool, fun is fun. I only play vanilla Minecraft and I won't pretend for a second that its a deep experience. I just don't know how people ever handled RTS games in the past when we're talking like these simplistic moba games are tough stuff.

You are completely right, would it surprise you if I told you my favorite RTS are CNC Generals, Dawn of War 2 and World in Conflict? I am not from a Star Craft or other micro heavy RTS background (in fact I hated Star Craft, liked the setting, but not much else). So I find a more shallow MOBA rts exactly right. Also as far as RTS games go, there are not a lot of em that I like, and even less that I would ever want to play online. DOTA2 is very stressful, it had nearly completely soured me from online RTS games ENTIRELY.

And no, DOTA 2 is not shallow. Items, Lanes, Minions and Upgrade path are VITAL in that game. This adds TONS of constant micro management to the game. Which is the kind of thing I really don't like

By the way, the reversal I meant was not a yoyo. We lost 2 fights in lanes pretty badly (4 guys dead at some point to a surprise heroics combination, don't often see Raynor picking Raiders AND mage picking ring of stun ;p) and that gave them a huge objective dominance. And we reversed that by defeating their citadel push and gaining objective dominance. This wasn't a "1 teamfight reversal" It took well over 15 minutes to gain that dominance and the resulting fights were thrilling and fun.

by the way, if you read my post again, you will notice one of the main things why I hate DOTA2 is that team can indirectly dictate what hero I play. That may sound good for the team at first, but when I am shit with a set of heroes I won't get better with them by team forcing me to play with em for 40 minutes of my life. I play to have fun, playing heroes I don't like, and literally suck at playing with, ain't fun.

In the end, all you need to read is this -> I hated any MOBA so far but.. I don't hate HotS (yet)

And hey, it's free. And I mean really free. Fair free to play (for now)

This comment was edited on Jun 13, 2015, 22:35.
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7.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 13, 2015, 22:11
7.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 13, 2015, 22:11
Jun 13, 2015, 22:11
 
Edit: Lost half of my post, don't feel like rewriting it.
6.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 13, 2015, 22:02
6.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 13, 2015, 22:02
Jun 13, 2015, 22:02
 
briktal wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 21:41:
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 20:36:
Maintaing the lanes is not even important anymore, as even a team pushed back to the citadel can turn an ENTIRE GAME AROUND by overwhelming an enemy that overextends their push.

That kind of comeback can happen in Dota. Not in every game, of course, but it's not an unrealistic scenario. The hardest part is probably winning that first fight.

it is the kind of MOBA where you have fun tons of unique characters from Bliz Franchises and where elite pro games can still be elite, but not necessarily always end up winning a game.

If you squint, Dota 2 is that game too.

Hehe, I can't squint that hard. Also themed maps beat DOTA 2 into submission. Playing the spider arena is as awesome as playing the plant terror arena. All require different strategy and objectives.

In HotS the first fight is not as important (unless it's the skull mines, but even then since there is only 2 lanes even a bad team USUALLY ends up gaining at least 40% of the skulls). First levels revive time is under 10 seconds and you still gain XP from team. This means the entire team levels up at the same time meaning a dead guy can still end up reviving at just the right time with full skills to reverse a push, assuming the team doesn't stay and fight a hopeless fight, though I have had a teamwipe turn to a complete victory already in random pub game. And as you don't have gold and inventory to worry about, a death doesn't put you behind as much as it does in DOTA2. Meaning you can take more risks, and even if you fail.. well yeah, it gives the enemy 1000 XP or something, big deal. But you might have prevented that enemy from pushing, as now he has to go heal instead of going for objective ;p)

I won't say both games are better or worse. Only that for me personally (a MOBA hater!) HotS is way more fun because less micro management and more focus on macro strategy. It is.. a casual MOBA, and this is the level of RTS where I can have fun. In fact I would go even so far as to say that HotS is a good RTS. Sort of like Dawn of War 2 where you had the hero fight mode.
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5.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 13, 2015, 21:54
5.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 13, 2015, 21:54
Jun 13, 2015, 21:54
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 20:36:
Sorry, but after HotS I can never go back to DOTA 2 ;p The removal of items, and the lanes no longer being sticky as fuck due to gold/xp only counting if you are involved in that kill, makes the game infinitely more smooth and fluid. It rewards strategic movement away from the lanes towards objectives and camps which believe it or not, can even happen in quick games. Maintaing the lanes is not even important anymore, as even a team pushed back to the citadel can turn an ENTIRE GAME AROUND by overwhelming an enemy that overextends their push.

This in turns makes games that are hugely open ended and not decided by 1 guy with tons of skill. If a public hodge pock team ends up in the same push behind a boss minion they just freed, then that is something you will literally never see happen organically in a random game in DOTA 2.. EVER.

I don't know how people describe Dota this way. I don't even care for it that much personally but those sorts of comebacks happen all the time, in fact the game was patched to try and lessen them because players felt the games yoyo'd too much. If a team plays like shit all game then they shouldn't be able to win through a single fudged push in my opinion, that's fucking retarded. HOTS is a game without much complexity, its just nonstop teamfights. If you like team fights without much nuance beyond 'i played my role properly and so did my team' then that's fine, some people like a little more depth which Dota barely even qualifies as.

MOBAs in general are not for me but I find the whole schtick of 'dota is too deep so it sucks!' to be a weird sentiment. It's not a particularly complex game to be blunt and HOTS is downright simplistic. If you have fun with either game then cool, fun is fun. I only play vanilla Minecraft and I won't pretend for a second that its a deep experience. I just don't know how people ever handled RTS games in the past when we're talking like these simplistic moba games are tough stuff.

The big thing I liked about HOTS vs Dota was more maps but they come off rather gimmicky at times.
Avatar 57682
4.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 13, 2015, 21:41
4.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 13, 2015, 21:41
Jun 13, 2015, 21:41
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Jun 13, 2015, 20:36:
Maintaing the lanes is not even important anymore, as even a team pushed back to the citadel can turn an ENTIRE GAME AROUND by overwhelming an enemy that overextends their push.

That kind of comeback can happen in Dota. Not in every game, of course, but it's not an unrealistic scenario. The hardest part is probably winning that first fight.

it is the kind of MOBA where you have fun tons of unique characters from Bliz Franchises and where elite pro games can still be elite, but not necessarily always end up winning a game.

If you squint, Dota 2 is that game too.
3.
 
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta
Jun 13, 2015, 21:27
3.
Re: Dota 2 Reborn Beta Jun 13, 2015, 21:27
Jun 13, 2015, 21:27
 
Thanks for the info ere4s3r, I may give that another look (if I can get pasty the overdone heroics).
Yours truly,

Axis
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