Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods

The Bethesda Blog has their side of the story regarding the launch of paid mods on Steam for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, an announcement that has spurred considerable unhappiness in many circles. Here's a bit:
We believe most mods should be free. But we also believe our community wants to reward the very best creators, and that they deserve to be rewarded. We believe the best should be paid for their work and treated like the game developers they are. But again, we don’t think it’s right for us to decide who those creators are or what they create.

We also don’t think we should tell the developer what to charge. That is their decision, and it’s up to the players to decide if that is a good value. We’ve been down similar paths with our own work, and much of this gives us déjà vu from when we made the first DLC: Horse Armor. Horse Armor gave us a start into something new, and it led to us giving better and better value to our players with DLC like Shivering Isles, Point Lookout, Dragonborn and more. We hope modders will do the same.

Opening up a market like this is full of problems. They are all the same problems every software developer faces (support, theft, etc.), and the solutions are the same. Valve has done a great job addressing those, but there will be new ones, and we’re confident those will get solved over time also. If the system shows that it needs curation, we’ll consider it, but we believe that should be a last resort.

There are certainly other ways of supporting modders, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn’t replace another, and we want the choice to be the community’s. Yet, in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop then he made in all the years he asked for donations.
View : : :
44 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 1.
Newer [  1  2  3  ] Older
44.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 28, 2015, 06:39
Slick
 
44.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 28, 2015, 06:39
Apr 28, 2015, 06:39
 Slick
 
all that was required to make this work would be a team of 5 people to spend their days resolving disputes between modders, ie. this guy used my animation, he can't get paid for my shit. that's it.

- modders getting 25 cents on every dollar (of potential millions in sales) is more than fair.

- letting modders decide IF they want to release for free, OR weather to charge $$$ is a big plus for the community. No modder who's so adamant about keeping their work free is affected by this at all. Their work will continue to be free.

that's it. if you work for something, and you want to be paid for it, you have the choice. leave it to the squabbling PC gamer 35 year old children to ruin this for everyone.

just remember who spoke up and ruined this for them, it wasn't the modders. they just wanted to be fairly represented from their own work (not have it stolen, then giving profits to someone else), which would require someone at valve to actually look at each mod listing even once. or keep their work free, then who gives a fuck. everything's exactly the same as it was last week.

congrats PC gamers! you really SHOWED THE MAN with this one. way to fuck over the little guy!

For your transgressions you shall be labeled a shill, called an idiot and anytime you mention facts or disagree with a tribe member you will henceforth be known as a troll. The best you can hope for is that the labels won't haunt your offspring. -RedEye9
Avatar 57545
43.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 28, 2015, 00:41
43.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 28, 2015, 00:41
Apr 28, 2015, 00:41
 
This is just bs from both Bethesda and Valve......

Anyone who has been around for a while and played knows that the modders and mappers that are good are employed by game studios or begin to make their own games. There you have their motivations and reward for what they do.

I don't like where this point
42.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 23:23
42.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 23:23
Apr 27, 2015, 23:23
 
Bethesda & Valve: "Well be back...Just give us time"....
Avatar 25373
41.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 21:53
41.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 21:53
Apr 27, 2015, 21:53
 
jacobvandy wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 19:06:
Creston wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 18:52:
In reality, you (Bethesda) just wants to make money off all these mods, because the ten million copies of the game those same mods have sold isn't enough.

I don't understand how you can still cling to that accusation of generic evil corporate greed in the face of the facts they're presenting. They aren't spending millions of dollars to support mods (and losing millions when modding forces your game to be rated M instead of T, interesting tidbit there) for 8% of their audience. That doesn't make good business sense, and is certainly not what a heartless, money-grubbing monster of a company would do.

This has become a bit of a pointless argument, but if you genuinely believe that any corporate entity the size of Bethesda does something for any motive other than that it makes them money, I don't know what to tell you.

They allow for mods because they've seen the incredible tail-end in sales it gives to their titles, plus the absolutely fucking massive amount of goodwill and free publicity it generates. But even so, hey, if you can start charging a few extra dimes for it?

Do you seriously think Bethesda gives one flying shit about their modders making any money? If they did, they wouldn't take 66% themselves. They'd just give all but 5% to their modders, or they'd actually hire the good modders into their team. (You know, like Obsidian did with Oscuro.)
Avatar 15604
40.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:38
40.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:38
Apr 27, 2015, 20:38
 
clint wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 20:29:
True, but what if the main reason is not to bring modders to the scene, but bring in big developers to be steam excusive.

Yup, that could have been the real reason, along with making 65% off of the backs of modders.
To prevent CV-19, avoid the Serious Seven: weddings, funerals, faith-based activities, bars, gyms, house gatherings and other small events.
Avatar 22024
39.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:36
39.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:36
Apr 27, 2015, 20:36
 
So it's dead. Good. Too many issues. I saw a comment from yesterday that they were looking at implementing donation buttons. I think they should do that. It gets mod authors some money and prevents all the issues with mandatory payments. Leave it like that for awhile and see how things go. And for fucks sake talk to the community first before you try something like this again. Half the drama was from this coming out of nowhere.
Avatar 57352
38.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:35
38.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:35
Apr 27, 2015, 20:35
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 20:30:
NKD wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 19:58:
But like I said, Valve does deserve a decent cut for hosting, listing, and handling the business end.

Do they though? They are already selling the game via Steam and getting 30% of every sale. Many people might not even buy the game if it weren't for the (free) mods. The workshop is also great advertising for Valve and giving people an incentive to prefer Steam over other DD services. Does Valve really deserve more money on top of that? What for? And why now and why hasn't free hosting been an issue before?

But as I said, my main issue is BETHESDA'S cut. Which is many times higher than what they'd get licensing their tools and IP to a mainstream developer.

Yeah. Bethesda should not get another cut either just like Valve. They sell the game for over three years and it includes a "free" (not really since it's part of what you pay for) modkit for people to do as they please. Changing the rules mid-game and supporting Valve's greedy cash grab attempt to charge for mods is very lame indeed.

I can visually imagine the fat bloated red face of GabeN after a few glasses of wine and a similarly fat bloated red face of a Zenimax exec and how they dreamed up their new mod cash empire at some meeting at a convention. They probably thought of themselves as the greatest geniuses of all time as they repeatedly slapped their fat knees in laughter and choked on the wine.

An absolutely disgusting display of greed on all sides. I can't do much to boycott Valve as I have too many games on Steam unfortunately but I sure as hell won't buy the next Bethesda offering at anywhere near full price (if at all).

Think bigger and not just skyrim or just bethesda, think All PC games. This was a sales pitch to game developers to be steam exclusive. Thus the percentage ratios.
37.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:34
37.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:34
Apr 27, 2015, 20:34
 
Quboid wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 19:53:
Update: After discussion with Valve, and listening to our community, paid mods are being removed from Steam Workshop. Even though we had the best intentions, the feedback has been clear – this is not a feature you want. Your support means everything to us, and we hear you.

Yeah, definitely not thought through by either Valve or Bethesda, but good on them for listening to criticism and responding with the correct action. What is that they say about the road to Hell again?
To prevent CV-19, avoid the Serious Seven: weddings, funerals, faith-based activities, bars, gyms, house gatherings and other small events.
Avatar 22024
36.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:34
NKD
36.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:34
Apr 27, 2015, 20:34
NKD
 
jacobvandy wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 20:24:
NKD wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 19:58:
But as I said, my main issue is BETHESDA'S cut. Which is many times higher than what they'd get licensing their tools and IP to a mainstream developer.

Joe Schmoe modder is not a "mainstream developer," though. You're unproven in talent, reliability, discretion, demeanor... Otherwise you wouldn't have to submit your stuff through a system like this, and could go straight to interviewing at the company.

I'm not comparing it to an employer/employee relationship, but a licensor/licensee relationship, which I think I made pretty clear. They are, at most, effectively licensing their creation kit, and in some mods case, their IP. Since the original game must be owned for the content to run, it's actually a more restrictive relationship than licensing an engine.

But an engine or IP licensing arrangement often runs somewhere between 5-15%. And, in fact, in an official licensing scenario Bethesda takes on MORE risk. In a modding scenario, none of those things you said matter. "Talent, reliability, demeanor." none of it reflects on Bethesda because it's just a mod. In an "official" licensing scenario, Bethesda is kind of putting a more official seal of approval on the product and those things begin to matter. Not to mention you need to already have the base game to benefit from the mods, unlike an officially licensed spin-off game.

So why is it the lower risk scenario somehow calls for a significantly higher cut to Bethesda?

Because they can get away with it. Or at least they thought they could. But as we've seen now, Bethesda crashed and burned due in part to the insulting percentage offered.
Old man trouble back again
Fucking up my plans like oh no, oh no,
I'm back to the black again
Gettin fucked up again, oh no, oh no.
Avatar 43041
35.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:30
35.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:30
Apr 27, 2015, 20:30
 
NKD wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 19:58:
But like I said, Valve does deserve a decent cut for hosting, listing, and handling the business end.

Do they though? They are already selling the game via Steam and getting 30% of every sale. Many people might not even buy the game if it weren't for the (free) mods. The workshop is also great advertising for Valve and giving people an incentive to prefer Steam over other DD services. Does Valve really deserve more money on top of that? What for? And why now and why hasn't free hosting been an issue before?

But as I said, my main issue is BETHESDA'S cut. Which is many times higher than what they'd get licensing their tools and IP to a mainstream developer.

Yeah. Bethesda should not get another cut either just like Valve. They sell the game for over three years and it includes a "free" (not really since it's part of what you pay for) modkit for people to do as they please. Changing the rules mid-game and supporting Valve's greedy cash grab attempt to charge for mods is very lame indeed.

I can visually imagine the fat bloated red face of GabeN after a few glasses of wine and a similarly fat bloated red face of a Zenimax exec and how they dreamed up their new mod cash empire at some meeting at a convention. They probably thought of themselves as the greatest geniuses of all time as they repeatedly slapped their fat knees in laughter and choked on the wine.

An absolutely disgusting display of greed on all sides. I can't do much to boycott Valve as I have too many games on Steam unfortunately but I sure as hell won't buy the next Bethesda offering at anywhere near full price (if at all).
34.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:29
34.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:29
Apr 27, 2015, 20:29
 
jdreyer wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 20:27:
descender wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 18:57:
Musicians get 8%. Actors get 10-15% at best. Why do we think the modders with no power and no voice will get a better deal?

One could also argue that Steam is taking a smaller cut than they deserve for the potential bandwidth costs of hosting of a popular mod. I can understand the gripes with the 66% that Bethesda is taking. That does seem like... a lot... but I don't get the gripe that the modder's 25% is unfair in any way. 25% is a lot more than 0%.

Would they prefer it go back to 0%? Or should they take what they can get now and bargain for a better deal later? (obviously the latter)

Not really comparable to actors and musicians, both of whom benefit enormously from studio resources from equipment to marketing. Modders design, build, test, publish, and promote on their own. Bethesda already made their money on the base game, and modding has been shown to increase sales (DayZ says "Hi") so they're already making more than they normally would. If the goal is truly to attract good, full time-modders to the scene, they should give a more generous split.

True, but what if the main reason is not to bring modders to the scene, but bring in big developers to be steam excusive.
33.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:27
33.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:27
Apr 27, 2015, 20:27
 
descender wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 18:57:
Musicians get 8%. Actors get 10-15% at best. Why do we think the modders with no power and no voice will get a better deal?

One could also argue that Steam is taking a smaller cut than they deserve for the potential bandwidth costs of hosting of a popular mod. I can understand the gripes with the 66% that Bethesda is taking. That does seem like... a lot... but I don't get the gripe that the modder's 25% is unfair in any way. 25% is a lot more than 0%.

Would they prefer it go back to 0%? Or should they take what they can get now and bargain for a better deal later? (obviously the latter)

Not really comparable to actors and musicians, both of whom benefit enormously from studio resources from equipment to marketing. Modders design, build, test, publish, and promote on their own. Bethesda already made their money on the base game, and modding has been shown to increase sales (DayZ says "Hi") so they're already making more than they normally would. If the goal is truly to attract good, full time-modders to the scene, they should give a more generous split.
To prevent CV-19, avoid the Serious Seven: weddings, funerals, faith-based activities, bars, gyms, house gatherings and other small events.
Avatar 22024
32.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:25
32.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:25
Apr 27, 2015, 20:25
 
Fantastic, this means now that Valve is bored of their paid mod idea that they can get back to work on HL3. This is it folks; the motivation that got them back on track. (yet another HL3 post).

But seriously, it would be great if the gaming/modding community could get back to the glory days of the 90s/00s. That includes big time publishers opening up their games more instead of never releasing mod kits these days; and instead trying to cash on in DLCs and stifling creativity (I'm looking at you EA/Dice). I don't remember ever thinking to myself I needed money for making a mod. Maybe some felt different, but it wasn't my style personally.
Avatar 37119
31.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:25
31.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:25
Apr 27, 2015, 20:25
 
clint wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 20:24:
jdreyer wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 20:21:
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 20:07:
Valve's announcement on pulling the plug.

I came here to rewrite the announcement in a "what they really think" style, but I guess there's no point in pouring water on a fire that's already gone out.

.
Definitely a case of "What the hell were they thinking?"

Imagine if it worked though, Steam would have triple A developers running in to be steam exclusive. They were the real customers, the modders were the service being provided
30.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:24
30.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:24
Apr 27, 2015, 20:24
 
deleted
29.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:24
29.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:24
Apr 27, 2015, 20:24
 
NKD wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 19:58:
But as I said, my main issue is BETHESDA'S cut. Which is many times higher than what they'd get licensing their tools and IP to a mainstream developer.

Joe Schmoe modder is not a "mainstream developer," though. You're unproven in talent, reliability, discretion, demeanor... Otherwise you wouldn't have to submit your stuff through a system like this, and could go straight to interviewing at the company. Rolling into a similar point...

Kajetan wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 19:55:
When you start selling mods, you are no longer an amateur. You now have a business. You have expenses. You have to licence tools and software, which were free for non-commercial use. You have to pay taxes. You have to make sure to not violate someones copyright. You probably have to pay other mod team members.

Getting paid doesn't make you a "professional" in anything but title. Blender is free. The Creation Kit is free. GIMP is free. Thousands of people are making money selling their mods for other games on the Workshop at 25% revenue share. Not all of them are rivaling professional artists that are actually employed by game developers, but they're obviously making some kind of money, otherwise they wouldn't continue participating. There's nothing stopping you from trying except your own excuses. Well, and the fact that largely misplaced outrage got the entire system shut down in 4 days. XD
28.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:22
28.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:22
Apr 27, 2015, 20:22
 
Whatever the fuck they are saying, being so goddamn apologetic, all I am reading is "profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit profit" -- and that's not because I'm tired and drunk as hell right now!

Fuck the excuses. Fuck their lies of good intentions. Lies, lies, lies. It's all just profit, profit, profit. The mod community works fine as it is -- people make good mods in their free time and love doing it, and if a mod is succesful they can add it to their resume. No complaints there. Never were. Now go fuck yourself and thrust the lie up your own ass saying you did it to support the modders, Bethesda. Fuck off.
Avatar 57334
27.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:21
27.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:21
Apr 27, 2015, 20:21
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 20:07:
Valve's announcement on pulling the plug.

I came here to rewrite the announcement in a "what they really think" style, but I guess there's no point in pouring water on a fire that's already gone out.

Definitely a case of "What the hell were they thinking?"
To prevent CV-19, avoid the Serious Seven: weddings, funerals, faith-based activities, bars, gyms, house gatherings and other small events.
Avatar 22024
26.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:21
26.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:21
Apr 27, 2015, 20:21
 
descender wrote on Apr 27, 2015, 19:48:
NKD, the models aren't different. The modders (artists) want to sell their content (music) in Steams (label) market... that's exactly what I described and exactly why the cut's those type of artists should be relevant (at least in regards to Valve's cut I suppose). Content distribution, marketing and advertising... those are the things the label (Steam) takes money from the artist (modder) for. Calling the bandwidth costs "background noise" is just trying to handwave away factors that are actually important. One of the modders in another thread was talking about more than 6GB per month of downloads through the Nexus, that's not cheap and the audience and possible number of downloaders on Steam is 100000x what the Nexus offers.

I do agree, the Bethesda cut is high... I would have expected the Valve cut to be higher though, or that it at least be 50/50 between them.

I still think that anyone complaining about the 25% is absolutely nuts. Is it low? Sure. Is it the worst deal ever? No, of course not. Yesterday you were making pennies, now you are making .25 on the dollar over thousands of sales with millions of potential customers. They should just take what they can get and worry about getting a better deal later when they can get organized (modders unions?).

Obviously Valve/Bethesda have backpedaled on this now and rightfully so. Dropping this into the middle of an existing mod community and allowing modders to charge for existing mods was a recipe for disaster. They should have waited until they had a new 3rd party game to launch with this modder payment plan or at least forced them to produce new content to charge for. Then they could have slowly rolled it back into existing markets like Skyrim rather than let the modders make fools of themselves in the eyes of the community.

Steam are selling steam exclusivity, that is why the developer percentage is high. It is a sales pitch to triple A developers to be steam exclusive. Sell on steam, only on steam. Look at our exclusive services, modders providing premium content you do not have to work on, but it makes money for you long term. Look at our market of always online users. It is a kill the competition move.
25.
 
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods
Apr 27, 2015, 20:19
25.
Re: Bethesda on Paid Skyrim Mods Apr 27, 2015, 20:19
Apr 27, 2015, 20:19
 
Valve deserves a cut. Bethesda deserves a significant cut. The modders are building off of an EXISTING FRAMEWORK. And guess what, Bethesda getting cash incents them to provide better modding tools...more hooks... Maybe something like this is what Firaxis needs in order to make a decent Civ VI SDK.

So now, thanks to all the howling and whining....modders get jack shit. Good job guys, way to champion the little guy. But we all know it wasn't about that...it was about entitlement, now wasn't it?
Avatar 56308
44 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 1.
Newer [  1  2  3  ] Older