@Creston:
The Imperials would know because the smugglers left. As in, they punched out and warped away according to plan before the Imperials could react. If they actually stuck around, that might have been worth mentioning. If they had enough ships to worry a task force in place to annihilate two sector fleets, that would also be key information. Instead, what Thrawn and Pellaeon are looking at grimly is two Rebel warships and a bunch of starfighters pouring into the shipyards.

For that matter, if that was Zahn's actual intent, it would have been more effective storytelling for the smugglers to actually decide to jump into the fight, not confusing the issue with defending the shipyards (which, again, the Imperials abandoned immediately once Thrawn was out of play). The whole business about Wedge planning to force the Imperials to split their fleet to defend the shipyard, the Imperials worrying about doing exactly that, and then the Imperials just up and leaving, makes no sense.

Unless they revised the book to fix this -- and to be honest, I would have -- I think you're inventing a reason that wasn't described in the actual book, which reads like Zahn very abruptly ran out of either time or allowable pages.

Also, the books spent some time hammering the point of how the superior Imperial fleet at Endor turned tail and ran because they were Force-linked to the Emperor until he died. But then the presumably also-superior fleet at Bilbringi flees after Thrawn's death, even though they weren't linked to him, nor to C'baoath. After spending time and words filling in this plot hole in RotJ, wouldn't it make sense not to end the climactic battle of your trilogy the exact same way?

@Orogogus:

The Imperials don't know that the smugglers are jumping out. YOU know that, as the reader, but the Imperials don't. They also have no clue how big this force that's grabbing the CG array is, or that that's all they're doing. All they see is they have two full sector fleets to deal with, and suddenly there's shit happening at the shipyards by some unknown force, and now they have to either split up their forces, or move to the shipyards and for all they know be caught in a crucible between two hostile forces.

I think Pellaeon also had it in the back of his mind that when the Emperor died at Endor, the Imperial Fleet went completely to shit, and he doesn't want to repeat that there.

But that said, it wasn't a terrific ending.

Creston wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 13:21:
cool article on how they built the new droid.

They're going to sell miniature actual working versions of those at toy/hobby stores. For $200 each. And they'll sell hundreds of thousands.

Verno wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 09:13:
I thought it was fairly promising...then I remembered its JJ Abrams involved

Yeah, at his best his movies are light and fluffy but cohesive with great action, like the first Star Trek. At his worst, the movies are a convoluted mess with unresolved threads and arcs with no payoffs. I'm really hoping for the former.

I like what little we've seen so far. World building looks spot on, the bad guy looks threatening, and I like the casting of Ridley and Boyega. A bad trailer is almost always a bad movie. A good trailer has a good chance of being good. So I'm hopeful.

Orogogus wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 11:00:
You seem to be dancing around the elephant in the room that's Mark Hamill. I love his voice work from the 90s on, but his lines in the trilogy were pretty bad. Although, having watched the deleted scenes I have to say they left the worst stuff on the cutting room floor.

Can't refute that too much, but all those years of voice acting have undoubtedly improved his delivery. The stills I've seen of him, he looks like a jedi, he fits in this universe. I think he's the original cast member I'm most looking forward to seeing.

1badmf wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 01:07:

Creston wrote on Apr 16, 2015, 21:52:

nin wrote on Apr 16, 2015, 21:20:

DangerDog wrote on Apr 16, 2015, 21:05:
It's the dialog that's going to ruin the movie, especially the forced humor.

Has dialogue ever been star wars strong suit?

"Yippeeeee!"

"Are you an angel?"

"It's over Anakin! I have the higher ground!"

"He killed younglings, Padme! YOUNGLINGS!"

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit...

the dialogue of the originals was always at least charming with Ford and Fisher delivering them with confident aplomb. i imagine they were pretty hokey on the page, so that magic was all on the cast. and i thought pretty much all of yoda's lines in Empire were sheer poetry.

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." words i still try to live by.

re: the trailer, i have to agree with burrito about the snippet with han. that line was a bit of a bottom feeding attention grab. i have a hard time picturing the masculine pragmatist han that i grew up saying something like that. that scene alone makes me wary - proves JJ is still not above pandering and cheap fan service. this film shouldn't be the least bit about fandom wish fulfillment. it should be about star wars and there is absolutely no need to cheapen the film with nods and winks to the audience like that.

Yet, the original trilogy was full of nods and winks. It was the dialogue that didn't take itself so seriously that was the best in Star Wars. What you outline here is absolutely nothing new.

shihonage wrote on Apr 16, 2015, 20:08:
And thus, Jar Jar Abrams rapes another venerable (pre-prequels) franchise. Everyone applauds as the hope dies.

+1

Well, at least there doesn't remain much good nerdy sci-fi franchises out there from the 80's and 90's he can morph into unspeakable mainstream crap horror. Dune perhaps? Babylon 5?

@Creston:

Didn't the smugglers leave? They were going to "punch out" with their prize; if they were going to stay around and fight, and if that was what had the Imperials so concerned, I don't remember that being conveyed in the text. Also, I didn't get the impression they were that scary a force compared to the battle fleets. The Rebels had, if I recall, something like "two sector fleets", which the Imperials were going to wipe out with their trap.

I distinctly remember that the problem was stated as having to defend the shipyards in addition to whatever else was going on, rather than actually being a losing battle.

EDIT: The relevant text:

"It could be," Aves said. "Or it couldn't. See, in about ninety seconds some of us are going to make a grab for the CGT array we came here to get. After that, it's a quick goodbye and we punch our way out."

...

Wedge looked over at the lights, thinking it over. It could work, all right. If Aves' people were able to knock out even one of those Golan II's, it would open up the shipyard to a New Republic incursion. Unless the Imperials were willing to sacrifice it, they would have to shift some of their battle force over there to close the puncture and chase down any ships that had gotten in.

...

Pellaeon looked up at the viewports. At the chaos that had erupted behind the defenses of the supposedly secure shipyards; at the unexpected need to split his forces to its defense; at the Rebel fleet taking full advantage of the diversion. In the blink of an eye, the universe had suddenly turned against them.

EDIT 2: Did they retreat to the shipyards, to defend it? Again, if so that would be something not conveyed in the text.

This comment was edited on Apr 17, 2015, 13:43.

cool article on how they built the new droid.

@Orogogus: (secret text) the battle was already going poorly for the Imperials as they didn't count on all the smugglers being there. Pellaeon actually states that with Admiral Thrawn they could have still pulled out a victory, but without him he thinks it's pointless to stay and fight a war of attrition which would skew in the New Republic's favor.

It's probably also a bit of hero worship, as he thinks that without Thrawn they just don't have a chance.

It was a bit of an anti-climactic ending.

I continue to be underwhelmed by what I'm seeing. People constantly complain about George's dialog, but his dialog is one of the primary factors in making something "feel" like Star Wars. It's why the TV shows and games always seem a bit off. Without Lucas's script, I think the movie is going to seem more like EU material than another Star Wars film.

My main concern, though, is Abrams - who has a bad habit of dumbing everything down. The giant plot holes in the Star Trek movies ruined them for me, and I don't see much to indicate that things will be different. Lucas spent years working out the stories and scripts for his films. I doubt we're going to be seeing the same level of care with the new movies.

I mean, look at this design: http://media.aintitcool.com/media/uploads/2015/merrick/tfacel14_large.jpg
Stormtroopers had a hard enough time seeing as it was. How is that even remotely functional? And the lightsaber. http://media.aintitcool.com/media/uploads/2015/merrick/newkylo1_large.jpg He's about 2 inches from skewering himself.

The Half Elf wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 12:26:

Creston wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 11:20:

The Half Elf wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 08:26:
]And finally, the expanded universe is now dead, until there is new books based on the movies. There is no Academy, no Anakin, Ben, Jacen and Jaina, no Mara Jade, no Talon Kardde.

The EU is actually alive and well. Disney didn't kill it, they've just said that it's not canon. The EU has even been rebooted, presumably to be able to take advantage of where the new movies go.

Well in reguards to the movies it's dead. As much as I would have loved to see Zahn's books made into the next trilogy.

People say that, but I've never really understood the sentiment. A great book doesn't necessarily make a good movie, and vice versa; I think the Thrawn trilogy is a good example. Good guys and villains being smart works well in a book but looks pretty dull on screen, where people want to see snappy action sequences and the good guys winning through the power of heart/teamwork/badass. The first two books see their exciting climaxes when (spoiler) Lando activates the mole miners, and Han steers a Dreadnaught into a mostly-immobile Star Destroyer. I don't think any amount of John Williams is going to get people super hyped up over that. Likewise, Vader is what audiences want in a movie villain.

While we're on the subject, though, I've never understood the ending of the last book. Spoilers: Okay, so the Rebels are breaking into the shipyard. And that's bad because now the Empire has to contain the main body of the Rebel fleet (I think) while also defending the shipyard. But Pellaeon calls a retreat after Thrawn dies. Doesn't this mean they give up both objectives instead of picking just one? The Rebel fleet gets away, and the shipyard is toast. What happened here?

Creston wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 11:20:

The Half Elf wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 08:26:
]And finally, the expanded universe is now dead, until there is new books based on the movies. There is no Academy, no Anakin, Ben, Jacen and Jaina, no Mara Jade, no Talon Kardde.

The EU is actually alive and well. Disney didn't kill it, they've just said that it's not canon. The EU has even been rebooted, presumably to be able to take advantage of where the new movies go.

Well in reguards to the movies it's dead. As much as I would have loved to see Zahn's books made into the next trilogy.

The Half Elf wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 08:26:
]And finally, the expanded universe is now dead, until there is new books based on the movies. There is no Academy, no Anakin, Ben, Jacen and Jaina, no Mara Jade, no Talon Kardde.

The EU is actually alive and well. Disney didn't kill it, they've just said that it's not canon. The EU has even been rebooted, presumably to be able to take advantage of where the new movies go.

1badmf wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 03:47:

Creston wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 01:18:

1badmf wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 01:07:
the dialogue of the originals was always at least charming with Ford and Fisher delivering them with confident aplomb.

The original series was better, but even it wasn't the greatest where dialogue was concerned.

right, and a lot of the same lines were delivered in the prequels to catastrophic results. but coming out of the deliveries of the original cast they somehow became natural and spontaneous. i think harrison ford could make dr. seuss sound natural and spontaneous. come to think of it, i'd be REALLY curious to see him do Shakespeare, whether it'd be an unmitigated disaster or if he could achieve an american naturalness that no one's seen before.

i particularly remember leia's speech on the eve of the evacuation of hoth about the ion cannon firing several shots, how it was so long and technical, and yet she pulled it off like she was a professor teaching a class.

the lines as written were probably overly dense and verbose but the cast just made it come to life; something the prequel cast couldn't ever do. maybe it was that they had worse lines, but i think some of it is that they weren't as good as the original cast as well.

You seem to be dancing around the elephant in the room that's Mark Hamill. I love his voice work from the 90s on, but his lines in the trilogy were pretty bad. Although, having watched the deleted scenes I have to say they left the worst stuff on the cutting room floor.

I thought it was fairly promising...then I remembered its JJ Abrams involved

I'm a little surprised you guys didn't already have him on ignore...he's pulled that kind of crap for a long time now.

Burrito of Peace wrote on Apr 16, 2015, 22:14:

Seriously, fanboy, fuck off and eat a bowl of dicks if you can't handle some honest criticism where Disney violates its own goddamned IP and rules.

Disney violates its own IP. Riiiiiiight.

Luke was given the sabre by Obi-wan. Guess Lucas shot first.

All of your points have been rebuffed but that one took the cake.

Burrito really?

Looks like Revan? Not really. But then again Stormtroopers look like Tie Fighter Pilots that look like blah that look like blah blah blah.

One of the major selling points of the yt-1300 is the face it was HIGHLY upgrade-able and could be customized out the wazoo. Not to mention it's Han's pride and Joy along with who he won the ship from.

Star Destroyers were capable of atmospheric flight. who's to say it didn't crash in atmosphere or out of it. If you just go by the movies, every single ship should be black from the angles and speed of reentry, but then again they could also be protected by their deflectors.

Obi Wan Kenobi was a Jedi Knight, NOT a Jedi Master like Yoda/Windu. He was also giving the son the weapon of his father, who had fallen to the dark side. He NEVER offers to teach Luke the force. He tells Luke, come with me and learn about the Force.
And Luke never goes off to build a light saber to meet some fucking requirements of a dead order. He needed a weapon to fight his father, and since he didn't have his own Death Star, he built a lightsaber. Obi-Wan was on Tattoine to keep and eye on Luke and help guide him to a Jedi Master when he was ready.

And finally, the expanded universe is now dead, until there is new books based on the movies. There is no Academy, no Anakin, Ben, Jacen and Jaina, no Mara Jade, no Talon Kardde.

Disney own's it, and violating it's own IP? And you're telling people they are fanboy's and to fuck off? Whatever medication you're on or not on, you either need more of it, or are taking way to much.
I'm a fan and at times a geek of Star Wars, but damn dude you made us all look bad.

Creston wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 01:18:

1badmf wrote on Apr 17, 2015, 01:07:
the dialogue of the originals was always at least charming with Ford and Fisher delivering them with confident aplomb.

The original series was better, but even it wasn't the greatest where dialogue was concerned.

right, and a lot of the same lines were delivered in the prequels to catastrophic results. but coming out of the deliveries of the original cast they somehow became natural and spontaneous. i think harrison ford could make dr. seuss sound natural and spontaneous. come to think of it, i'd be REALLY curious to see him do Shakespeare, whether it'd be an unmitigated disaster or if he could achieve an american naturalness that no one's seen before.

i particularly remember leia's speech on the eve of the evacuation of hoth about the ion cannon firing several shots, how it was so long and technical, and yet she pulled it off like she was a professor teaching a class.

the lines as written were probably overly dense and verbose but the cast just made it come to life; something the prequel cast couldn't ever do. maybe it was that they had worse lines, but i think some of it is that they weren't as good as the original cast as well.

Burrito of Peace wrote on Apr 16, 2015, 22:14:
Blah, blah, blah

Whatever dude. You made a bunch of statements that either make no sense or for which precedents exist. You've obviously made up your mind that the movie sucks based on these scenes taken out of context. I feel sorry for you. Who knows, it could suck, but from what we've seen so far most of us are bullish.