jdreyer wrote on Feb 10, 2015, 19:56:

Beamer wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 18:59:
Seriously, though, nearly every college with a liberal arts school has a course about feminism and film. You can read parts of MITs via their OpenCourse thing.

How is one person criticizing games disproportionate when film has hundreds of college courses?

C'mon Beamer, we all know that college "film" courses are just an excuse to get an easy "A" while watching movies all semester.

As someone who took all of those classes I can tell you they're not easy A's. I mean, they were easy for me because I remember anything I like and I like films... but most of the people in those classes failed hard, probably because of the same myth that you mentioned initially lured them in

I want to go back to school simply to listen to crazy film professors ramble again.

It's just so damn strange.

Say some big Hollywood movie comes out with some potentially sexist aspects to it (like THAT would ever happen!) Then some semi-obscure academic offers a feminist critique of this film, criticizing it as an example of what she sees as a wider problem with sexism in Hollywood.

And then ...

What?

What happens?

NOTHING happens. You think the filmmakers are going to get really upset? Why should they? As long as people are buying tickets, they're happy. Do you think the FANS of the movie are going to get really upset? You think they're going to say: "You're trying to feminize all movies!" Or "Your trying to take our manly movies away from us, you femanazi!"

No. They wouldn't say that. They wouldn't and shouldn't care. Because they know some feminist academic ISN'T going to reshape the entire film industry. They know that Hollywood doesn't WORK like that. As long as "manly" movies make money, "manly" movies are going to be made, because the box office has the final say. Period.

Same thing with music, same thing with graphic novels, books, etc etc. Yes, some people may occasionally stage a protest at some theater or something, but you know what that changes?

Not a damn thing.

This all seems pretty intuitive, right? Anyone care to point out any obvious errors with the statements I've made above?

Anyone?

So now go back and replace "Hollywood" with "EA" or whatever, change "movie" to "game," etc etc.

What changes?

Not a damn thing.

Except that, this time, a certain segment of the fan base loses their collective minds.

Why is that?

This comment was edited on Feb 11, 2015, 13:34.

jdreyer wrote on Feb 10, 2015, 19:54:

beremot wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 18:37:

Beamer wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 17:52:
Do games really get disproportionately criticized? Movies, TV and music have these discussions daily. Games really only has one prominent critic, and she only gets attention because, unlike movies, tv and music, people fight against her so hard.

No, they do not. If anything, they've gotten comparatively little scrutiny until very recently, because they've been treated as if they weren't actually an adult art form, just something for kids, nothing more.

Movies and TV even have their own way of measuring the treatment of women in the media: the Bechdel Test. It was postulated 30 years ago, and is still used in discussions of movies today (flawed though it might be). On the movie sites and podcasts I listen too, it comes up many times a year.

Certainly sexism and the treatment of women in movies and TV are ongoing topics. Look at how GoT and other HBO shows have been criticized for sexposition and gratuitous nudity. Michael Bay is routinely criticized for his portrayals of women in his movies.

I feel like we're at the point with both violence and sexism in gaming where we were with violence and sexism in TV a couple of decades ago. Back then, TV was blamed for everything from teen pregnancy to the crime rate to the crack epidemic, and on and on. Today it's still discussed, but not nearly with the same hysteria. Gaming is slowly improving and will reach an equilibrium where there will still be your GTAs but overall the treatment of women will be mostly fair and balanced. In a couple of decades we'll look back at this hysteria like we do at the hysteria surrounding TV 20 years ago.

The hysteria isn't there because people listen and don't just outright flee from conversation. And people are willing to accept that TV not only reflects society but reinforces society.

The Bechdel Test is another thing routinely misunderstood. It isn't about saying if a movie is sexist or not, it's solely about patterns of female representation in film. A movie can fail the Bechdel Test and be a great movie for women (see: Gravity) or it can succeed and be a terrible movie for women (see: The Bikini Carwash Company. Or don't. 14 year old me rented it on VHS. If you're 14, see it.)

People often think it's about particular movies, but that just isn't what it's meant to do. Just like they think Tropes Against Women is about condemning individual games but that isn't its point, either.

Beamer wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 18:59:
Seriously, though, nearly every college with a liberal arts school has a course about feminism and film. You can read parts of MITs via their OpenCourse thing.

How is one person criticizing games disproportionate when film has hundreds of college courses?

C'mon Beamer, we all know that college "film" courses are just an excuse to get an easy "A" while watching movies all semester.

beremot wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 18:37:

Beamer wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 17:52:
Do games really get disproportionately criticized? Movies, TV and music have these discussions daily. Games really only has one prominent critic, and she only gets attention because, unlike movies, tv and music, people fight against her so hard.

No, they do not. If anything, they've gotten comparatively little scrutiny until very recently, because they've been treated as if they weren't actually an adult art form, just something for kids, nothing more.

Movies and TV even have their own way of measuring the treatment of women in the media: the Bechdel Test. It was postulated 30 years ago, and is still used in discussions of movies today (flawed though it might be). On the movie sites and podcasts I listen too, it comes up many times a year.

Certainly sexism and the treatment of women in movies and TV are ongoing topics. Look at how GoT and other HBO shows have been criticized for sexposition and gratuitous nudity. Michael Bay is routinely criticized for his portrayals of women in his movies.

I feel like we're at the point with both violence and sexism in gaming where we were with violence and sexism in TV a couple of decades ago. Back then, TV was blamed for everything from teen pregnancy to the crime rate to the crack epidemic, and on and on. Today it's still discussed, but not nearly with the same hysteria. Gaming is slowly improving and will reach an equilibrium where there will still be your GTAs but overall the treatment of women will be mostly fair and balanced. In a couple of decades we'll look back at this hysteria like we do at the hysteria surrounding TV 20 years ago.

Redmask wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 18:57:
You seem like the big pussy here, getting immediately defensive and sniping at everyone who criticizes your little icon. No one needs your petty reassurances about the state of gaming, we will work to change things where we think its appropriate and resist where it isn't.

My "little icon," hah. I didn't even know who she WAS until the Gators started their epic hissy fit. And it's not like I'm a fan of hers now.

Are any of you old enough to remember the Bill Clinton/Lewinsky scandal? Kenneth Star was a partisan Republican prosecutor obsessed with bringing Clinton down. I didn't particularly like Clinton at the time and I still don't like him now. But Star was such a total ASSHOLE that I couldn't help siding with Clinton anyway.

Same deal here.

And I DON'T "snipe" at everyone who criticizes Sarkeesian. Far from it. I'm actually quite open to listening to criticism of her ... as long as it is backed up with actual quotes and/or evidence, not just opinion or more Gator bile.

Redmask wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 18:57:
o one needs your petty reassurances about the state of gaming, we will work to change things where we think its appropriate and resist where it isn't.

Oh I think you do. The level of fear, anxiety and hostility displayed toward anyone who criticizes sexism in gaming is ample evidence that you are badly in need of reassurance.

By the way, this "We" you speak of--how is this "We" working to "change" and "resist" things?

Through "rational debate" and the "discussion of issues?"

Quboid wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 19:09:

Beamer wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 17:52:
Do games really get disproportionately criticized? Movies, TV and music have these discussions daily. Games really only has one prominent critic, and she only gets attention because, unlike movies, tv and music, people fight against her so hard.

It seems that way to me but of course there is massive sampling bias on my behalf - and yes, there is a certain irony that the only reason I remember her name is because of people criticising her for wanting attention. The impression I get is that other media has discussions on topics like feminism, whereas gaming has arguments and lectures.

Gaming has long been criticised as the demon that will rot this generation and Sarkeesian is seen as another in a long line of people who want to take our games away. She's not, but the Internet isn't good at nuance and only entirely-for or entirely-against stances seems to register to some people.

Internet is extremely bad at nuance. The claims I see that people think Anita makes are so far off from any actual content in her videos. She even begins every video explaining that liking the games she mentions is ok and that they're often good games.

People still see that as demonizing.

Beamer wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 17:52:
Do games really get disproportionately criticized? Movies, TV and music have these discussions daily. Games really only has one prominent critic, and she only gets attention because, unlike movies, tv and music, people fight against her so hard.

It seems that way to me but of course there is massive sampling bias on my behalf. The impression I get is that other media has discussions on topics like feminism, whereas gaming has arguments and lectures.

Gaming has long been criticised as the demon that will rot this generation and Sarkeesian is seen as another in a long line of people who want to take our games away. She's not, but the Internet isn't good at nuance and only entirely-for or entirely-against stances seems to register to some people. There is a certain irony that the only reason I remember her name is because of people criticising her for wanting attention.

Seriously, though, nearly every college with a liberal arts school has a course about feminism and film. You can read parts of MITs via their OpenCourse thing.

How is one person criticizing games disproportionate when film has hundreds of college courses?

beremot wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 18:37:
A youtube video is NOT going to change the industry, you fucking pussies. No one is going to ban violent video games or force them to have more female anything.

When people talk about how bullshit something they disagree with is then they're being hysterical but if its you then you're rationally debating and discussing issues. You seem like the big pussy here, getting immediately defensive and sniping at everyone who criticizes your little icon. No one needs your petty reassurances about the state of gaming, we will work to change things where we think its appropriate and resist where it isn't.

Quboid wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 17:49:
I assumed you meant Beamer too, reading between those lines wasn't hard. Perhaps I'm another alt account. Perhaps we actually are all one person but I/we don't know, pseudo-schizophrenia style!

Get out of Verno's echo chamber!

On to The List you go!

Beamer wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 17:52:
Do games really get disproportionately criticized? Movies, TV and music have these discussions daily. Games really only has one prominent critic, and she only gets attention because, unlike movies, tv and music, people fight against her so hard.

No, they do not. If anything, they've gotten comparatively little scrutiny until very recently, because they've been treated as if they weren't actually an adult art form, just something for kids, nothing more.

What I do not understand, what no one has been able to explain to me, is why a certain segment of the gaming community has reacted so hysterically to Sarkeesian and other critcs.

A youtube video is NOT going to change the industry, you fucking pussies. No one is going to ban violent video games or force them to have more female anything.

NO ONE. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Just like it hasn't happened to books, or movies.

Bunch of Chicken Littles running around crying that the sky is falling.

Some website gave Bayonetta a 7.5!

"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"

Quboid wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 17:49:

Verno wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 12:35:

Understand when I say attention "whore" I by no means using that term as slander against her gender; I view her as an attention whore as I am a New York Pizza whore.

Absolutely and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think anyone is really having a debate over these things either, its just causing polarization and conflict. What frustrates me is how one sided it is, people don't give the industry any credit. The gaming industry is still young but despite that has grown significantly in terms of gender specific offerings and representation over the past 10 years.

People also seem to ignore other forms of media and marketing where gender tropes are even worse, many of those industries where women are in positions of power now even. Like movies and television, gaming is a business first and foremost so companies are giving the consumer what they desire. That doesn't mean the industry or its audience are flawed, people often seek out unrealistic and exaggerated entertainment, women are no strangers to that either.

Agreed, gaming seems to get disproportionately criticised in this regard. I agree with much of the criticism but the volume and imbalance makes it tiresome much like the tropes that they criticise.

I assumed you meant Beamer too, reading between those lines wasn't hard. Perhaps I'm another alt account. Perhaps we actually are all one person but I/we don't know, pseudo-schizophrenia style!

Do games really get disproportionately criticized? Movies, TV and music have these discussions daily. Games really only has one prominent critic, and she only gets attention because, unlike movies, tv and music, people fight against her so hard.

Verno wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 12:35:

Understand when I say attention "whore" I by no means using that term as slander against her gender; I view her as an attention whore as I am a New York Pizza whore.

Absolutely and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think anyone is really having a debate over these things either, its just causing polarization and conflict. What frustrates me is how one sided it is, people don't give the industry any credit. The gaming industry is still young but despite that has grown significantly in terms of gender specific offerings and representation over the past 10 years.

People also seem to ignore other forms of media and marketing where gender tropes are even worse, many of those industries where women are in positions of power now even. Like movies and television, gaming is a business first and foremost so companies are giving the consumer what they desire. That doesn't mean the industry or its audience are flawed, people often seek out unrealistic and exaggerated entertainment, women are no strangers to that either.

Agreed, gaming seems to get disproportionately criticised in this regard. I agree with much of the criticism but the volume and imbalance makes it tiresome much like the tropes that they criticise.

I assumed you meant Beamer too, reading between those lines wasn't hard. Perhaps I'm another alt account. Perhaps we actually are all one person but I/we don't know, pseudo-schizophrenia style!

Beamer wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 12:34:
Not really sure how serious he is, but again, I have no reputation here to protect, and am we're not really even in the same discussions in this thread, so I don't know why it would make sense for either of us to be a fake.

Fakes are usually for one of those uses - saying things you wouldn't say with your "real" name or gaining support for an unpopular argument to make it seem less unpopular.

You never should have chosen two names that both begin with "B." I'm pretty sure that's how he figured you out.

I think you should change my name to "Veremot." Or you could change your other name to "Veamer." That way it wouldn't be so obvious, and maybe we can get back into Verno's echo chamber.

Just something to think about, oh Lord and Master.

This comment was edited on Feb 9, 2015, 13:08.

Understand when I say attention "whore" I by no means using that term as slander against her gender; I view her as an attention whore as I am a New York Pizza whore.

Absolutely and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think anyone is really having a debate over these things either, its just causing polarization and conflict. What frustrates me is how one sided it is, people don't give the industry any credit. The gaming industry is still young but despite that has grown significantly in terms of gender specific offerings and representation over the past 10 years.

People also seem to ignore other forms of media and marketing where gender tropes are even worse, many of those industries where women are in positions of power now even. Like movies and television, gaming is a business first and foremost so companies are giving the consumer what they desire. That doesn't mean the industry or its audience are flawed, people often seek out unrealistic and exaggerated entertainment, women are no strangers to that either.

Not really sure how serious he is, but again, I have no reputation here to protect, and am we're not really even in the same discussions in this thread, so I don't know why it would make sense for either of us to be a fake.

Fakes are usually for one of those uses - saying things you wouldn't say with your "real" name or gaining support for an unpopular argument to make it seem less unpopular.

Verno wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 09:02:

Interesting how I didn't use any names and yet that connection was made

Yeah, right, "interesting." Beamer and I are the only two people here questioning the amount of vitriol directed at Sarkeesian, and we both use "line breaks," but there's no reason I should have assumed you were refering to us. Of course not. Passive aggressive much?

Verno wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 09:02:
I will toss you into the "echo chamber" of my massive ignore list, all 2 people that are on it.

No, simpleton, you are taking me OUT of your "echo chamber." The echo chamber is where you only hear opinions that are similar to yours, hence the word "echo." So you have taken me out, not tossed me in. And of course you only have two people on your list, because we're the ONLY two here going against everyone else. So two is all you need.

Verno wrote on Feb 9, 2015, 09:02:
To be honest your frequent diatribes were getting kind of tiresome anyway, have a nice life.

Since you've already taken me out of your echo chamber, I know you won't be reading this, but I just want you to know how much you mean to me, Verno, from a personal standpoint, and how much I will miss having you as a reader of my frequent diatribes. I don't know how I will go on living without you, but I will try.

beremot wrote on Feb 6, 2015, 16:28:
Yes, Verno, you've figured it out. I am Beamer's sock puppet, or he is mine, or something. Better add me to your list too. Can't have any disruptions in the echo chamber.

Interesting how I didn't use any names and yet that connection was made Sure, I will toss you into the "echo chamber" of my massive ignore list, all 2 people that are on it. To be honest your frequent diatribes were getting kind of tiresome anyway, have a nice life.

I agree Quboid I sympathize with the call for more diverse gender roles, but she took the angle of trashing games with sensible gender roles. By the examples she used and the context in which she used them, it came across that she is against ANY game in which the woman is portrayed as such things as strippers, hookers, victims of kidnapping and other crimes, etc. Consider that she titles her video headline as "Women as background decoration", meaning she is calling out any game that uses them as strippers or hookers regardless of how contextually accurate it may be. She also claims, based on a very specious use of a psychological phenomenon with no sourcing, the effect on the psyche that games with this sort of presentation of women is universal and unavoidable, which means ANY game that presents women this way, regardless of historical accuracy, is furthering misogynist attitudes in male gamers. This is patently, laughably untrue as any of us can attest to but more importantly it gives the lie to the claim that she only was seeking to have more games made that portray women in more dignified, meaningful roles. If that was truly all she was after I would have been behind her 100%.


Understand when I say attention "whore" I by no means using that term as slander against her gender; I view her as an attention whore as I am a New York Pizza whore.

Prez wrote on Feb 7, 2015, 22:16:
Hey if the shoe fits... She is an attention whore, I really can't see any way to debate that fact. And the fact that she deliberately spins her data to make it look like men are the victimizers and women are the perpetual victims makes her a man-hater in my book.

Isn't her principle point is that tropes like the damsel in distress are too frequently used? She uses examples of that, as anyone would, but I'm not aware her having ever said that this is always the case and IMHO that's a big distinction. I don't know of anything she has done in terms attention-seeking, finance, or one-sidedness which virtually any other campaigner for any campaign doesn't also do.

I couldn't bear to watch all of her stuff which I find just tedious, so if I have missed anything stupid please let me know. I don't like her either but she has my sympathy due to the behaviour of some of her detractors (not you).