How have I moved the goal posts? The principle is that they sold me something and then took it away. That has always been my objection, my mysterious sense of entitlement to something that I am entitled to.

"If you think you understand license agreements" - read the part of my post which you removed from the quote which specifically addresses this.

Quboid wrote on Jan 18, 2015, 08:52:

It's not the songs that matter, it's the principle of them taking something away that I have paid for. What if the next thing they take away is part of the game map? Perhaps a car or two?

But we're not talking about removing parts of the map and cars, we're talking about licensed songs you can download in seconds. Not some imagined "principal" that can be applied to literally anything. If you think you understand license agreements and how things should be done better than Rockstar and everybody else in the world maybe you should run the studio into the ground. Until then keep moving the goalposts to continue your whiny shitposts. I expected a stupid response and you didn't disappoint.

Mad Max RW wrote on Jan 18, 2015, 00:38:
Wait. People are really upset about Rockstar removing a few licensed songs from GTA? Songs you can download and add to your own playlist in fucking seconds. If we were in the early 1990s you might have a reason to complain. To those people is this a thought that ever crossed your minds? I'm dying to see how you dismiss it. If you can be here right now to type out another stupid post you can reacquire those precious songs with at least the same amount of effort.

It's not the songs that matter, it's the principle of them taking something away that I have paid for. What if the next thing they take away is part of the game map? Perhaps a car or two?

Rockstar got this wrong and all the other details are irrelevant. License deal expired? They shouldn't have signed it. Limitation placed by rights holder? They shouldn't have signed it. Legally required to remove the songs now? They shouldn't have signed that deal in the first place. Releasing it on new platforms? They shouldn't have signed the deal that would affect people who had already paid in the first place. Impossible to broker a deal which lasts (despite apparently managing it for most of the music)? They shouldn't have sold content that they didn't have the right to sell in the first place.

FWIW, I absolutely do feel a sense of entitlement here - because I paid for it.

Jerykk wrote on Jan 18, 2015, 06:52:
I feel like you're trying to be sarcastic but failing miserably. Steam is the biggest distributor of PC games. Wal-Mart is not. The overwhelming majority of gamers love Steam and want all their games on Steam. That's why Steam's user count has been growing rapidly and why almost every publisher and developer uses Steamworks now.

BTW, using Steamworks doesn't mean you can only sell your game on Steam. You can provide keys to any retailer or online store, which is what every publisher has been doing for years. You can even sell said keys on your own website! Shocking, I know. Also, Rockstar is already selling GTA5 on Steam. They're still giving Valve a cut of each sale. That being the case, they might as well do what the majority of gamers want and use Steamworks for all versions of the game.

Rockstar Social Club is terrible, it reminds me of half assed bullshit like Games for Windows Live. I can't see anyone who is serious and not trolling trying to defend that shit software. I don't care about getting all of my games in the same place but at least Steamworks titles give me a working standard set of functionality and a multiplayer community that isn't dead right out of the gate.

Jerykk wrote on Jan 18, 2015, 06:52:

Slick wrote on Jan 18, 2015, 04:16:

Jerykk wrote on Jan 18, 2015, 02:03:
I remember RSC being pretty broken in Max Payne 3. I had a lot of trouble just getting into the same matches with friends. I didn't see any useful features from RSC when playing LA Noire or GTA4 either.

Really, they should just ditch RSC and switch to Steamworks entirely. Steamworks is better in every way. For any game-specific features like the ones Kroven mentioned, those should just be integrated into the game itself (since they are game specific). No need for an additional client. 99.9% of customers are going to buy GTAV on Steam anyway, so why not use Steamworks?

Rockstar just seems out of touch with PC gaming. Publishers have been pushing for simultaneous launches and adopting Steamworks for years now. Rockstar apparently didn't get the memo.

why don't they just sell their product at wal-mart? sure wal-mart takes a bigger cut, but who cares?

fact is that people have been trying to get their products sold at wal-mart for a long time now, and it's really crazy for anyone to not want their product sold only exclusively at wal-mart. they're obviously out of touch, because everyone knows that wal-mart is cheaper and better than anything else out there! didn't they get the memo that all anyone wants is one giant wal-mart?

I feel like you're trying to be sarcastic but failing miserably. Steam is the biggest distributor of PC games. Wal-Mart is not. The overwhelming majority of gamers love Steam and want all their games on Steam. That's why Steam's user count has been growing rapidly and why almost every publisher and developer uses Steamworks now.

BTW, using Steamworks doesn't mean you can only sell your game on Steam. You can provide keys to any retailer or online store, which is what every publisher has been doing for years. You can even sell said keys on your own website! Shocking, I know. Also, Rockstar is already selling GTA5 on Steam. They're still giving Valve a cut of each sale. That being the case, they might as well do what the majority of gamers want and use Steamworks for all versions of the game.

"Steam is the biggest distributor of games. Wal-Mart is not."

well, looks like your clever perception has pierced my feeble attempt to draw an APT ANALOGY.

*golf clap*

here's another one, and before you correct me, i'm aware that Steam doesn't sell cars, and that Toyota doesn't sell videogames : Let's say Toyota makes the best cars, everyone loves them. There's a line around the block every saturday afternoon at the local Toyota dealership. The Kia dealership down the road is struggling, as nobody likes the Kia dealership because it's not Toyota.

Toyota, being the "chip leader" offers to sell Kia cars on at their (more popular) dealership, for %30 of the gross of every sale. Kia doesn't make much profit on the thin margins of cars anyways, their costs are simply too high. and %30 from the gross would be deducted from their %35 profits, earning them a measly %5 profit. However, they can't really afford to not take this deal, as they'd be put out of business.

(You know, like how Wal-Mart operates)

AHA! but you've got me! Toyota makes cars, where as Steam doesn't really make games! *rimshot* got me there! So really it's just an allegiance to a store.

if you don't think that any product has the right to be sold by the people who create it, and instead have to submit to a large corporate entity to sypher away all their profits, then you're deranged. and I can't capitalize this enough: THIS IS THE VERY FUCKING REASON THAT STEAM WAS INVENTED IN THE FIRST PLACE, SO THAT VALVE DIDN'T HAVE TO HAND THEIR PROFITS OFF TO VIVENDI, A 3RD PARTY PUBLISHER. Irony abounds. although if "analogy" flew over your head, i don't have much hope for you coming to terms with the irony of your argument.

Choice is a principle of freedom. You want to live in a 1-corporation world it seems. and your argument would be: "why even make any other cars except Toyota? they're obviously the best, so just close every other car manufacturer (who sells their own products) and just let it be Toyota Toyota Toyota. that's how it should be"

This comment was edited on Jan 18, 2015, 07:53.

Slick wrote on Jan 18, 2015, 04:16:

Jerykk wrote on Jan 18, 2015, 02:03:
I remember RSC being pretty broken in Max Payne 3. I had a lot of trouble just getting into the same matches with friends. I didn't see any useful features from RSC when playing LA Noire or GTA4 either.

Really, they should just ditch RSC and switch to Steamworks entirely. Steamworks is better in every way. For any game-specific features like the ones Kroven mentioned, those should just be integrated into the game itself (since they are game specific). No need for an additional client. 99.9% of customers are going to buy GTAV on Steam anyway, so why not use Steamworks?

Rockstar just seems out of touch with PC gaming. Publishers have been pushing for simultaneous launches and adopting Steamworks for years now. Rockstar apparently didn't get the memo.

why don't they just sell their product at wal-mart? sure wal-mart takes a bigger cut, but who cares?

fact is that people have been trying to get their products sold at wal-mart for a long time now, and it's really crazy for anyone to not want their product sold only exclusively at wal-mart. they're obviously out of touch, because everyone knows that wal-mart is cheaper and better than anything else out there! didn't they get the memo that all anyone wants is one giant wal-mart?

I feel like you're trying to be sarcastic but failing miserably. Steam is the biggest distributor of PC games. Wal-Mart is not. The overwhelming majority of gamers love Steam and want all their games on Steam. That's why Steam's user count has been growing rapidly and why almost every publisher and developer uses Steamworks now.

BTW, using Steamworks doesn't mean you can only sell your game on Steam. You can provide keys to any retailer or online store, which is what every publisher has been doing for years. You can even sell said keys on your own website! Shocking, I know. Also, Rockstar is already selling GTA5 on Steam. They're still giving Valve a cut of each sale. That being the case, they might as well do what the majority of gamers want and use Steamworks for all versions of the game.

Jerykk wrote on Jan 18, 2015, 02:03:
I remember RSC being pretty broken in Max Payne 3. I had a lot of trouble just getting into the same matches with friends. I didn't see any useful features from RSC when playing LA Noire or GTA4 either.

Really, they should just ditch RSC and switch to Steamworks entirely. Steamworks is better in every way. For any game-specific features like the ones Kroven mentioned, those should just be integrated into the game itself (since they are game specific). No need for an additional client. 99.9% of customers are going to buy GTAV on Steam anyway, so why not use Steamworks?

Rockstar just seems out of touch with PC gaming. Publishers have been pushing for simultaneous launches and adopting Steamworks for years now. Rockstar apparently didn't get the memo.

why don't they just sell their product at wal-mart? sure wal-mart takes a bigger cut, but who cares?

fact is that people have been trying to get their products sold at wal-mart for a long time now, and it's really crazy for anyone to not want their product sold only exclusively at wal-mart. they're obviously out of touch, because everyone knows that wal-mart is cheaper and better than anything else out there! didn't they get the memo that all anyone wants is one giant wal-mart?

Welp....I paid full price. I know, big shocker - I am sure you are all covered in disbelief.

I bought the super awesome boxed edition for 360 that came with all of the goodies. The money bag fits nicely in my GTA4 engraved lock box.

I bought the digital version on PS3, and got RDR for free. I won't buy digital AAA games from PSN anymore, the game takes FOREVER to load. There are reports online that it is 2-4x longer load times, which is crazy. It is a NEW God of War red PS3, and it drives me nuts. Oh well other than the load time, it doesn't change anything else that I have noticed. I do enjoy playing RDR.

I bought GTA5 on pc, full price, cause they deserve it. I could have saved 15.00, but I wanted it on my Steam account.

Rockstar Social Club.....I have had zero issues with them. I played the hell outta Max Payne 3 online when it first came out. The game isn't really for that purpose, and I had fun for a while, but it was very easy. People really sucked at it and I found the play to be very boring. I haven't had ANY issues with RSC in any game that I have played from them. I have more issues with my internet than with the SC.

Anyway. I hope to see most of you in game on the PC whe it hits. If not, we will welcome you with open arms and newbs when you do finally make it.

I remember RSC being pretty broken in Max Payne 3. I had a lot of trouble just getting into the same matches with friends. I didn't see any useful features from RSC when playing LA Noire or GTA4 either.

Really, they should just ditch RSC and switch to Steamworks entirely. Steamworks is better in every way. For any game-specific features like the ones Kroven mentioned, those should just be integrated into the game itself (since they are game specific). No need for an additional client. 99.9% of customers are going to buy GTAV on Steam anyway, so why not use Steamworks?

Rockstar just seems out of touch with PC gaming. Publishers have been pushing for simultaneous launches and adopting Steamworks for years now. Rockstar apparently didn't get the memo.

This comment was edited on Jan 18, 2015, 02:12.

What is going on here?

As far as I can tell basically one person is really butthurt that people made fun of his preorder and is lashing out at everyone.

I am not preordering this and if people want to make fun of that then go nuts, its my money bitches

I might pick it up later but meh, Pillars of Eternity will keep me busy for awhile.

Krovven is right on point. and seriously people, you can't talk smack all day every day then get surprised when someone uses a salty tone with you. we didn't set the tone here.

there is so much ignorance in this thread.

step 1) download 65 gigabyte game from the internet

step 2) complain bloody murder that you have to occasionally still be on the internet

and why in the fuck do you bitches keep QQing that "ooh there's too many services i have to install, waaaaah! there's origin, steam, uplay, R* social! it's soooo many! why can't it all just be sold on one service??

UMMMM maybe because the world doesn't work like that in ANY other respect? do ALL of the stores sell EVERYTHING? Is there just the CAR store, and the FOOD store, and they all sell every make and model and brand of everything? what precedent are you considering here? It's called competition. and frankly i agree with the fact that if you make something, you have the right to sell it yourself.

oh, but you had to install an 800 kilobyte program on your 3 terabyte hard drive. you poor thing. let me cry you a river.

Mad Max RW wrote on Jan 18, 2015, 00:28:

I do find it ironic the people who bitch about requiring an internet connection to play a video game spend a ridiculous amount of time bitching on the internet. Far more time than they ever would have spent playing the game.

I'm getting pretty sick of the whole "My internet is dodgy" argument too.

In fact I can literally put it into a first world problem "I have 140Mbps download but my powerline adapters restrict me to 84Mbps. Couple that with the simple fact my powerline adapters will drop me offline for at least 30 seconds per hour and you'll understand the hell I'm living in"

I'm sure there are people around the world who don't have a decent internet connection - but they either have more important things to buy than GTA or their paid a lot to be there.

Wait. People are really upset about Rockstar removing a few licensed songs from GTA? Songs you can download and add to your own playlist in fucking seconds. If we were in the early 1990s you might have a reason to complain. To those people is this a thought that ever crossed your minds? I'm dying to see how you dismiss it. If you can be here right now to type out another stupid post you can reacquire those precious songs with at least the same amount of effort.

Quboid wrote on Jan 17, 2015, 22:32:

Krovven wrote on Jan 17, 2015, 21:43:
try and explain yourself

Very well, I don't wish to duck any awkward questions so I will explain.

- They sold something.
- They took part of it away.
- Whatever the reason, it was their decisions that led to it.

I hope that's clear. Now you can go back to answering insults with insults, because you wouldn't want to be childish.

/facepalm. Their decisions 11+ years ago during development. Do you really think they thought they would be rereleasing the game 10+ years later on new platforms (like phones and tablets, that didn't even exist) that would cause their licensing to be void? No, because that wasn't unrealistic 10+ years ago. How do you know the limitation wasn't placed in by the license holder? You don't. This is how the real world works. You don't just get what you want your way, especially when someone else owns the product you are trying to borrow in your own product. Grow the fuck up and stop acting like an entitled idiot.

BOO HOO they took a few songs out of an 11 years old BECAUSE THE LAW REQUIRED THEM TOO! God some of you people act like you never stopped using diapers.

Krovven wrote on Jan 18, 2015, 00:25:

Don't have an internet connection? Too bad. I'm tired of people whining about their internet connections. If you don't have a good connection, don't buy it and play something else. Simple as that.
But for the last 15 years, we've had this thing called broadband internet.

I do find it ironic the people who bitch about requiring an internet connection to play a video game spend a ridiculous amount of time bitching on the internet. Far more time than they ever would have spent playing the game.

Kristian Joensen wrote on Jan 17, 2015, 21:47:
How about you actually read what I wrote? I spefically said that I will NOT pirate the game and that I am willing to give Rockstar Social Club a chance.

And I didn't say you. I said "people". As in the other people in this thread and the other, that are outright claiming they will pirate it. You were responding to Slicks post, which he was responding to someone else that did outright say they would pirate it. Maybe you shouldn't argue the side of someone that makes those claims if you feel you are going to be painted with the same brush.

Kristian Joensen wrote on Jan 17, 2015, 21:47:
It is the periodic online "entitlement" checks and hardware based DRM I have an issue with. You know the kinds of DRM that require good, stable internet connections and interfere with you upgrading your computer. That is what GTAV will have.

So what if it does? I NEVER HAD ISSUE WITH IT. And I can honestly say that nobody I have ever played GTA V on PS3 with ever complained about the Social Club. It logs you in when you load the game. Done. It's a non-issue unless you just want to use it as a bullet point to bitch about DRM. It's a service that provides a lot of benefits. I've already listed those, so I won't do it again. It's not straight DRM.

Don't have an internet connection? Too bad. I'm tired of people whining about their internet connections. If you don't have a good connection, don't buy it and play something else. Simple as that.
But for the last 15 years, we've had this thing called broadband internet. I don't want cool services like the Social Club with the stats tracking, custom jobs, clan pages, etc, to not exist because some butt-hurt redneck in the middle of nowhere can't get a good net connection or is only interested in the single player game.

You keep quoting "entitlement". It's their game, they are entitled to manage it however they see fit. You don't like it and are claiming you are entitled to an offline only game. Well you aren't.

Krovven wrote on Jan 17, 2015, 21:43:
try and explain yourself

Very well, I don't wish to duck any awkward questions so I will explain.

- They sold something.
- They took part of it away.
- Whatever the reason, it was their decisions that led to it.

I hope that's clear. Now you can go back to answering insults with insults, because you wouldn't want to be childish.

Krovven wrote on Jan 17, 2015, 19:35:
Intrusive? Lol. How so? I don't think you know the meaning. It auto logs you in when you load the game. It behaves like it's not even there...unless you go to the website to view the info.

I logged in to Social Club every time I loaded the PS3 game and never even saw it. I logged in for GTA IV and for Max Payne 3. Never once have I ever had an issue.

People claiming they and others should pirate because they have stick up their ass over Social Club, these people are the problem and you are a bunch of fucking cunts.

I'm surprised Blue hasn't been deleting posts advocating piracy, as he used to.

How about you actually read what I wrote? I spefically said that I will NOT pirate the game and that I am willing to give Rockstar Social Club a chance.

It is the periodic online "entitlement" checks and hardware based DRM I have an issue with. You know the kinds of DRM that require good, stable internet connections and interfere with you upgrading your computer. That is what GTAV will have.

Quboid wrote on Jan 17, 2015, 20:50:
Krovven, you have repeatedly been insulting and abusive to both me and others so I don't wish to discuss this topic with you.


NamecaF, your TL;DR needs a TL;DR

Aww cry me a river. There a several posts (maybe not by you) making blanket insults to those that preorder (even by one of my friends). Do I get but hurt over it and refuse to talk to them? No. That's childish. So now you come across to me as both dumb and childish. Asking if you were dumb was a legit question. License agreements can't just be fixed. Statements like this just make me wonder why you would make statements like that when you clearly have zero understanding on how license agreements work. And no I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you more thatn I already did.

The other poster said he loathes arrogance. I loathe ignorance far more. Majority of the posts in this thread are filled to the brim with ignorance.

But if you don't want to try and explain yourself and instead cry over an insult, not much I can do and I don't really care.

As far as I see it, every one of the fucktards claiming they won't buy it because of stupid ignorant ideals, it's one less moron I have to deal with online.

xXBatmanXx wrote on Jan 17, 2015, 20:35:
What in the world is going on in here?

Games are srs bsns.

KIFFLOM!