Cutter wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 17:30:

Overon wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 17:25:
Has anyone noticed that when someone complains and one does not agree with the complaint, it's characterized as "whining". It's only "whining" when you disagree. I have a different perspective. I'm tired of the drama as well. However, just because I'm tired of it, and doesn't and shouldn't prevent others from talking about it. Just as I would not want to stop people from describing complaints they do not like as "whining," I don't want to stop the people who are complaining either. I say my approach is pretty even handed. The way you fight bad speech is with more speech.

No, there's a difference between a legitimate gripe and whining. There's been far too much whining from a lot of no-name, supposed, game developers of late. Do you hear Spector, Meir, etc. bitching? No. No one is forcing them to do the work that they do or even interact with the public. Yet they do, and they constantly piss and moan about it. Oh poor them, they're so hard done by. Fuck them and the whiny nags they rode in on. I see a lot of Mexican migrant workers around where I live. These guys work like dogs for peanuts and you don't hear a peep out of them. So fuck these self-entitled assholes. Don't like it, go do something else.

Spector and Meir as game developers...lol, haven't been for a long time, bud. A long, long, long time.

InBlack wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 10:03:
Its not a bad statement, there is no real reason why anyone should resort to rascist bigotry. Hate speech is a crime where Im from, so why should it go unpunished?

Although considering the fact that most forum admins behave like fascist pigs with delusions of grandeur (thats what you get when you hire people for free) I find the irony very slightly sweet tasting.

It's fairly interesting to see you say that nobody should resort to racist bigotry when you yourself frequently reach for the anti-Christian bigotry staple when posting.

for example:

InBlack wrote on Aug 14, 2014, 03:17:

Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Aug 13, 2014, 22:25:
Somehow I'm still unable to be surprised by how vile people can be, especially on the internet.

There fixed that for you. With that said why would anyone be vile to her because her dad killed himself??? Must be those fundamentalist Christians again, formenting their own brand of special hatred....after all suicide is a sin...

I could dig up more, but eh. You know damn well you do this pretty often.

Might be something to consider in lieu of your original statement.

Spotted a co-worker on that list.

He's kind of a whiner.

Desalus wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 12:33:

Verno wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 11:10:
After all we did such a good job eliminating it from narrower sources, let alone the internet.
Take a stand everyone, take a stand on taking a stand too while you're at it

In no way am I saying it's practical to eliminate it entirely. I just don't see a problem with people making an effort to reduce the undesirable behavior of the community.

eRe4s3r wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 11:49:
Open letter is not equal to "taking a stand"
Aside that I agree But it's the Internet. Nobody is gonna change it, not even feminists.

The open letter is asking the community to “take a public stand against it”, so I’m pretty sure that qualifies this open letter as ‘taking a stand’. But I'm curious...what in your mind would qualify as ‘taking a stand’?

You take stand by actions, not by petitions. Signing something online makes absolutely no difference to anyone. As long as SJW media is around this war will not end anyway.

Don't see the point of this. The douchebag minority are going to continue being the douchebag minority. Trying to appeal to their humanity isn't going to work.

PHJF wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 13:44:
The internet is not a community. The internet is a system of communities. If one doesn't like a community, one need only find another.

I have to draw the line at doxing and anything that bleeds over into real life, which I have to say, this shit does frequently. When it leaves the internet and goes RL, it follows you, sometimes for years. There's verifiable stories of the kind of real world torture you go through just for being posted on a revenge porn site. Imagine moving multiple times to different states and have individuals track you online just to post your information so you can continue to be harassed in real life.

There is no defense for taking it real world, which pretty much happens more and more often.

Julio wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 12:40:
Interesting attempt. So who do I report Kotaku to for their hateful harassing articles against male gamers? I would be all for this if it also had a section on that 'journalists' shouldn't provide positive press for sexual favors.

Sounds like a good idea but I don't see the SJWs following this.

Simple, you go after their advertisers. That's what I did, cut the money off and they'll either go under or change their tune.

Overon wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 17:25:
Has anyone noticed that when someone complains and one does not agree with the complaint, it's characterized as "whining". It's only "whining" when you disagree. I have a different perspective. I'm tired of the drama as well. However, just because I'm tired of it, and doesn't and shouldn't prevent others from talking about it. Just as I would not want to stop people from describing complaints they do not like as "whining," I don't want to stop the people who are complaining either. I say my approach is pretty even handed. The way you fight bad speech is with more speech.

No, there's a difference between a legitimate gripe and whining. There's been far too much whining from a lot of no-name, supposed, game developers of late. Do you hear Spector, Meir, etc. bitching? No. No one is forcing them to do the work that they do or even interact with the public. Yet they do, and they constantly piss and moan about it. Oh poor them, they're so hard done by. Fuck them and the whiny nags they rode in on. I see a lot of Mexican migrant workers around where I live. These guys work like dogs for peanuts and you don't hear a peep out of them. So fuck these self-entitled assholes. Don't like it, go do something else.

Do you remember when we used to be able to run our own game servers to permit or ban whomever we wished? Do you remember when we were able to run our own ladders and communities?

This comment was edited on Sep 3, 2014, 01:33.

Has anyone noticed that when someone complains and one does not agree with the complaint, it's characterized as "whining". It's only "whining" when you disagree. I have a different perspective. I'm tired of the drama as well. However, just because I'm tired of it, that doesn't and shouldn't prevent others from talking about it. Just as I would not want to stop people from describing complaints they do not like as "whining," I don't want to stop the people who are complaining either. I say my approach is pretty even handed. The way you fight bad speech is with more speech.

This comment was edited on Sep 2, 2014, 17:51.

If it's that painful then quit. Just shut up and do something else. When I quit EA I didn't do an op-ed column for the NYT. When I got tired of bartending, I didn't write an open letter about many negative aspects of working in hospitality. I just left and started doing something I really enjoy. How fucking hard is that to do?

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 13:54:
Anyway, given how many people here have, in the past, claimed they would never use Xbox Live because it's just racist 14 year olds, I'm shocked at how many people are angry at someone posting an open letter saying you should "publicly stand against" racist 14 year olds.

I guess since it’s under the context of the whole ‘gamergate’ uproar people are feeling free to be hypocritical.

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 13:54:

4D-Boxing wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 13:50:

Pigeon wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 11:02:
Asking the internet not to make death threats and racial,homophobic or sexist slurs, is a bit of a tall order, but good luck.

Lol keyboard warriors would actually have to use logic to express their repressed angst..good luck with that. Why aim that at gamers, its a satiety/evolution issue. Hundreds of years after slavery and almost 50 years after MLKs assassination and society is still dealing with this issue. Give it another 200 years maybe at least if not more. (people that spread hate and intolerance do reproduce so it will take a very very long time.

Why aim at gamers?
Because this was done by game developers? Why would they aim it at something other than games?

Anyway, given how many people here have, in the past, claimed they would never use Xbox Live because it's just racist 14 year olds, I'm shocked at how many people are angry at someone posting an open letter saying you should "publicly stand against" racist 14 year olds.

Not that Xbox Live is really full of that anymore. It was when only 14 year olds used the service, but in the early days of the 360 they became the minority.

I think the general dislike of the petition is the perception it's just game developers and journalists whining about people being mean to them. As you pointed out it's likely due to the vague simplistic language of the petition. Maybe they did this to avoid the murky waters of trying to define what goes too far in criticism, or what constitutes harassment.

Personally I think they would have been better off just addressing threats of violence and racial/sexist/homophobic slurs. Those things contribute nothing to criticism, they are purely negative coercion. So while calling someone, a self-righteous moron, with their head planted in their ass, isn't the best way to express criticism, it at least addresses specific negative qualities; as opposed to demeaning someone for being a woman.

Verno wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 11:10:
After all we did such a good job eliminating it from narrower sources, let alone the internet.

Take a stand everyone, take a stand on taking a stand too while you're at it

*pulls up a stool*
All this standing if wearing me out.

Beamer wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 13:36:

Quboid wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 13:27:
This sort of thing is just preaching to the choir and as Verno says, people will and have already jumped aboard with their own largely imaginary grievances.

I don't know.
This sort of thing seems like a "is this good enough?" It doesn't really take a stand on anything. It's 4 sentences that are vague. It isn't preaching to any choir, it's trying to say "look, we're doing something" without doing anything to make sure exactly no one is angry. It's phrased deliberately so that it's really hard to disagree with (though people are finding ways), yet not really saying anything and not really actionable (what the hell does "take a public stand" mean?) It holds absolutely none of the people signing it to any kind of standard or accountability.

It's fluff that says nothing, but I guess given that this is the gaming community, people still find "don't be racist" to be overly preachy.

That's what I meant, few will disagree. "Preaching to the choir" is the wrong phrase as, as you say, it applies very broadly.

I meant that even people who this applies to will, in general, think that they agree. I don't think most sexist, racist or otherwise bigoted people who see this would realise that their comments are anything other than the harmless fun that they think it is and we've all seen how readily some people will justify their -ism of choice. "Damn these horrible misogynists! Not like me, when I kept asking that chick on a BF4 server what bra size she wore, that was just banter. LOLz!"

*cue mewling whiny voice*

WORDS HURRTTT!

how about gaming journalists stick to fucking games and refrain from shoving their PC declarations down everyone's throat.

Kotaku/Jezebel I am looking at you.

There's a better petition that Boogie2988 setup that states not only what the original one does but asks the "enthusiast" press to stop tarring all gamers with the same brush and stating that we're all the same based on what a vast minority of asshats do. Given the responses he got from supposed "professional journalists" to just stating that maybe there are some demonstratable conflicts of interest in the industry, I'd say his point is a valid one.

4D-Boxing wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 13:50:

Pigeon wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 11:02:
Asking the internet not to make death threats and racial,homophobic or sexist slurs, is a bit of a tall order, but good luck.

Lol keyboard warriors would actually have to use logic to express their repressed angst..good luck with that. Why aim that at gamers, its a satiety/evolution issue. Hundreds of years after slavery and almost 50 years after MLKs assassination and society is still dealing with this issue. Give it another 200 years maybe at least if not more. (people that spread hate and intolerance do reproduce so it will take a very very long time.

Why aim at gamers?
Because this was done by game developers? Why would they aim it at something other than games?

Anyway, given how many people here have, in the past, claimed they would never use Xbox Live because it's just racist 14 year olds, I'm shocked at how many people are angry at someone posting an open letter saying you should "publicly stand against" racist 14 year olds.

Not that Xbox Live is really full of that anymore. It was when only 14 year olds used the service, but in the early days of the 360 they became the minority.

Pigeon wrote on Sep 2, 2014, 11:02:
Asking the internet not to make death threats and racial,homophobic or sexist slurs, is a bit of a tall order, but good luck.

Lol keyboard warriors would actually have to use logic to express their repressed angst..good luck with that. Why aim that at gamers, its a satiety/evolution issue. Hundreds of years after slavery and almost 50 years after MLKs assassination and society is still dealing with this issue. Give it another 200 years maybe at least if not more. (people that spread hate and intolerance do reproduce so it will take a very very long time.

Whatever. This whole thing has become just...tiring. As in, 'I'm tired of fucking hearing it!'. Seriously, how many articles are going to be made about how 'girls aren't treated the same as guys', etc...we know. We heard. Just because it's been 12 hours since the last article decrying sexist inequality doesn't mean we need another. Like, for instance, yesterday, I'm on Wikipedia and what do I see toward the bottom on the 'Did you know' section?

... that the developer Zoe Quinn considered delaying the Steam release of Depression Quest following the death of Robin Williams?

Seriously? Had the gaming journalism egosphere not taken a collective dump and then written about it last week, would that had been featured? I seriously doubt it. I'm not saying the point they're trying to make doesn't have value. I understand what the situation is and the reasons for it and that's the thing. I GET IT. Please stop trying to jam it into my brain through my ears with a cheap Q-tip....thank you.


=-Rigs-=