Op Ed

Polygon - No skin thick enough- The daily harassment of women in the game industry.
The problem with sharing these stories in broad terms is that people think men and women receive the same harassment online. They do not. I’m not writing this piece to evoke your sympathy. I’m writing to share with you what prominent, successful women in the industry experience, in their own words.

Rock, Paper, Shotgun - Game Names Are Almost Universally Terrible.
Seriously it’s not that hard why are you all so bad at this aauuugh.

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No subject
Jul 23, 2014, 09:18
1.
No subject Jul 23, 2014, 09:18
Jul 23, 2014, 09:18
 
Hey, hey look guys, more polygon click bait.

Let me just say, I've worked in female dominated industries that includes medium and heavy manufacturing where women are mainly harness assemblers; and men do receive the same type of harassment.
--
"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
2.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 09:40
2.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 09:40
Jul 23, 2014, 09:40
 
I have no doubt whatsoever that women receive more harassment in the game industry, especially since a large portion of it can be online and somewhat anonymous. People are assholes, and usually even bigger assholes online. More than a few frustrated idiots will eagerly jump to attack anything that isn't a christian white male if they can remain anonymous. It's not right, but what can you do, quit doing a job you supposedly love because of some shitheads?

Honestly I think most, if not all game developers should step WAY back from any sort of Forum/End User type interactions, male or female. You'll get a few good comments and a boatload of abuse. It's just how the internet is right now. Any forum for any game I've ever played, once the actual developers start posting, instead of through intermediaries, they eventually start getting flamed or harassed or mocked, blocking out any meaningful discussion with troll posts.

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3.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 09:43
Verno
 
3.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 09:43
Jul 23, 2014, 09:43
 Verno
 
I'm getting tired of hearing about women's issues all the time in the press, I can only summon so much empathy before I start to think "well do something about it then". If writing about their plights is doing something then maybe...stop doing so much about it then

Seriously though people are pricks on the internet, many of the examples are things where something has gone viral or the person was exposed to large public attention. It sucks but that attracts the weirdos. I think they get a different kind of harassment which sucks but there are a lot of lonely people and weird people who act out on the internet because it provides them a sense of anonymity. I'm sure Adam Orth or CliffyB would happy to tell some of them all about the harassment they get.

Edit: they disabled comments for the story which was really lame.

This comment was edited on Jul 23, 2014, 10:06.
Playing: Risk of Rain 2, Jedi Fallen Order, Last of Us II
Watching: Tenet, Peninsula, The Pale Door
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4.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 10:14
4.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 10:14
Jul 23, 2014, 10:14
 
I absolutely believe women in the gaming industry get more abuse than men, with the exception of Phil Fish.

And I'm willing to bet the EXACT SAME people who toss these comments ALSO wonder why they can't find a girlfriend, or complain that their girlfriend won't play games with them.

If you don't think women get any more abuse than men, you're delusional. While people will say horrible shit during a gaming match, they don't go hunting those people down, sending them rape threats for months/years after. No one does that shit to males, or if they do, it's incredibly rare.

My girlfriend plays as male characters in MMOs to avoid the constant flow of "are you really a girl? OMG marry me I love MMOs and you're a girl that plays them!"...and then the stream of abuse that follows when she obviously turns down their completely sensible offer.

Seriously, shit like this actually makes me want the Internet to not allow anonymity. Which makes me feel like I'm going insane, but there it is.
Avatar 15603
5.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 10:20
UHD
5.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 10:20
Jul 23, 2014, 10:20
UHD
 
How the Internet is right now? Have we been using the same Internet?
6.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 10:33
Verno
 
6.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 10:33
Jul 23, 2014, 10:33
 Verno
 
HoSpanky wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 10:14:
If you don't think women get any more abuse than men, you're delusional. While people will say horrible shit during a gaming match, they don't go hunting those people down, sending them rape threats for months/years after. No one does that shit to males, or if they do, it's incredibly rare.

All men are just hunting women down after matches and threatening rape? If you want people to accept that these things are just a given then you have to be willing to look at the other side of it. There are many women who cultivate the GAMERGURL culture and enjoy the sense of attention that comes with it. If you don't believe that then go have a look at twitch or Live From Playstation sometime. That's not an excuse for the behavior but a contributing factor that I don't see women in the press doing much to examine. My girlfriend isn't a huge gamer but shes played a few online games with me and she has managed to avoid death threats and rape jokes, I don't think its a universal truth that these things are automatic if you're a female gamer.

I think its true that women get a lot of unwanted sexual advances online but the same situation is true outside of the internet in many societies. Many people do not handle rejection well but again thats not a problem that is gender specific. Death threats are something I've personally received while gaming and I think that's an ugly aspect of the anonymity the internet provides. Whether women get a greater proportion of these or not I can't say for certain but after playing Dota for awhile I suspect its probably more even than people suspect.

This comment was edited on Jul 23, 2014, 10:51.
Playing: Risk of Rain 2, Jedi Fallen Order, Last of Us II
Watching: Tenet, Peninsula, The Pale Door
Avatar 51617
7.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 10:50
UHD
7.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 10:50
Jul 23, 2014, 10:50
UHD
 
Verno wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 10:33:
HoSpanky wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 10:14:
If you don't think women get any more abuse than men, you're delusional. While people will say horrible shit during a gaming match, they don't go hunting those people down, sending them rape threats for months/years after. No one does that shit to males, or if they do, it's incredibly rare.

All men are just hunting women down after matches and threatening rape? If you want people to accept that these things are just a given then you have to look at the other side of if. There are many women who cultivate the GAMERGURL culture and enjoy the sense of attention that comes with it. If you don't believe that then go have a look at twitch or Live From Playstation sometime. My girlfriend isn't a huge gamer but shes played a few online games with me and she has managed to avoid death threats and rape jokes, I don't think its a universal truth that these things are automatic if you're a female gamer.

I think its true that women get a lot of unwanted sexual advances online but the same situation is true outside of the internet in many societies. Many people do not handle rejection well but again thats not a problem that is gender specific.

The presence of "GAMERGURLs" doesn't make it okay to be a sexist asshole. The existence of sexual harassment outside the Internet doesn't make it okay inside the Internet too.

If you can't see sexual harassment of women in a culture dominated by men to be a problem I don't know what to tell you.
8.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 11:00
Prez
 
8.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 11:00
Jul 23, 2014, 11:00
 Prez
 
Verno wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 09:43:
I'm getting tired of hearing about women's issues all the time in the press, I can only summon so much empathy before I start to think "well do something about it then". If writing about their plights is doing something then maybe...stop doing so much about it then

Seriously though people are pricks on the internet, many of the examples are things where something has gone viral or the person was exposed to large public attention. It sucks but that attracts the weirdos. I think they get a different kind of harassment which sucks but there are a lot of lonely people and weird people who act out on the internet because it provides them a sense of anonymity. I'm sure Adam Orth or CliffyB would happy to tell some of them all about the harassment they get.

Edit: they disabled comments for the story which was really lame.

Verno stated my exact feelings on this matter and this latest clickbait article. This has gotten so silly that it's hard to take the issue seriously anymore. Which is a shame, because there is an issue. But overblowing it by several orders of magnitude by posting article after pointless article about it because you need the attention or your site needs the extra ad revenue about only serves to deaden everyone's sensitivity to it until no one cares anymore.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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9.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 11:04
9.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 11:04
Jul 23, 2014, 11:04
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 09:18:
Let me just say, I've worked in female dominated industries that includes medium and heavy manufacturing where women are mainly harness assemblers; and men do receive the same type of harassment.

Exactly, I work at a female dominated place, and there's plenty of harassment and discrimination against men. It would be nice if people could just treat everyone the same, but it's not likely.
10.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 11:10
Verno
 
10.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 11:10
Jul 23, 2014, 11:10
 Verno
 
UHD wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 10:50:
The presence of "GAMERGURLs" doesn't make it okay to be a sexist asshole. The existence of sexual harassment outside the Internet doesn't make it okay inside the Internet too.

Where did I say it makes it ok? Straw man. It's not an excuse for the behavior itself, its a contributing factor in a complex situation. We have a society dominated by the culture of worship based on appearance, the internet which provides casual anonymity and vastly different genders. It's not as simple as "men r dicks". Many, if not most men are not contributing to it. Some women contribute to the problem and I don't see them being called out for it.

Advances aren't inherently harassment either. I think it sucks women have to fend off hoards of lonely nerds online but that's a reality of the gender spread in gaming right now. It is certainly a different landscape now than 10 years ago and will change even more as time goes on. People who harass women after the fact are a different matter and that is a problem without a bullet point solution, I can't really do much to influence that. If it is serious then I would call the police.

If you can't see sexual harassment of women in a culture dominated by men to be a problem I don't know what to tell you.

Kind of a loaded point designed to make any answer seem insensitive.
I don't think its ok that the average MOBA player calls me a worthless waste of life if I miss an assist or threatens to kill me either but I accept that these things happen when dealing with the public and do my best to enjoy the game despite that. I don't like the idea of anyone being harassed but I'm not convinced that this is really an issue I can do anything to influence anymore than the aforementioned. Beating me over the head with it and associating all men with this behavior isn't going to help either.
Playing: Risk of Rain 2, Jedi Fallen Order, Last of Us II
Watching: Tenet, Peninsula, The Pale Door
Avatar 51617
11.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 11:36
11.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 11:36
Jul 23, 2014, 11:36
 
People will always be assholes on the internet because anonymity lets them get away with it. Unless we somehow remove anonymity from the net, that will never change. The article (and other articles like it) demands change but doesn't actually explain how to make that happen. I don't think censorship is necessarily the correct choice. Disabling comments, for example, will only provide trolls with more fuel to insult you with. There is some irony in the article complaining about men not wanting to hear about women's issues but then disabling comments so men can't respond.
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12.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 11:51
12.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 11:51
Jul 23, 2014, 11:51
 
All these new social justice warriors with their half-brained crusades who, instead of actually change the world into a better place by doing something about real problems like women's abuse in many countries, women's killing for the sake of honor, etc, will embark on stuff that can be resumed as useless and meaningless and actually harmful towards the real problems since it distracts people from those real problems into these made up ones.

This pic pretty much shows what these social justice warriors are.
13.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 12:18
UHD
13.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 12:18
Jul 23, 2014, 12:18
UHD
 
Verno wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 11:10:
UHD wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 10:50:
The presence of "GAMERGURLs" doesn't make it okay to be a sexist asshole. The existence of sexual harassment outside the Internet doesn't make it okay inside the Internet too.

Where did I say it makes it ok? Straw man. It's not an excuse for the behavior itself, its a contributing factor in a complex situation. We have a society dominated by the culture of worship based on appearance, the internet which provides casual anonymity and vastly different genders. It's not as simple as "men r dicks". Many, if not most men are not contributing to it. Some women contribute to the problem and I don't see them being called out for it.

Then what was the point of bringing up those things, except to present the argument that their presence somehow counterbalances the real problems? I'm genuinely curious.

Advances aren't inherently harassment either. I think it sucks women have to fend off hoards of lonely nerds online but that's a reality of the gender spread in gaming right now. It is certainly a different landscape now than 10 years ago and will change even more as time goes on. People who harass women after the fact are a different matter and that is a problem without a bullet point solution, I can't really do much to influence that. If it is serious then I would call the police.

Understand that I'm not trying to call you out specifically, and good on you if you're not one of the idiots these articles harp on about. It's not about you specifically, and you shouldn't take it as such.

Kind of a loaded point designed to make any answer seem insensitive.
I don't think its ok that the average MOBA player calls me a worthless waste of life if I miss an assist or threatens to kill me either but I accept that these things happen when dealing with the public and do my best to enjoy the game despite that. I don't like the idea of anyone being harassed but I'm not convinced that this is really an issue I can do anything to influence anymore than the aforementioned. Beating me over the head with it and associating all men with this behavior isn't going to help either.

My point was that the problem exists regardless of whether or not you are part of it. If you're doing your part, you're respectful and calling out others on their bullshit, awesome. But I don't think sexual harassment in gaming would get the attention it does if it wasn't systemic.

Admittedly my response to you was kinda snippy, I apologize; I'm really not trying to be an asshole to you personally.
14.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 12:55
Verno
 
14.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 12:55
Jul 23, 2014, 12:55
 Verno
 
UHD wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 12:18:
Then what was the point of bringing up those things, except to present the argument that their presence somehow counterbalances the real problems? I'm genuinely curious.

I explained it below, it's not a simple situation. These things happen for a variety of reasons and understanding the reasoning is important. It's also important to understand that there might be nothing people can realistically do about the problem other than allow time to pass. It's also important to acknowledge that women have a role in helping influence their own destiny too, thats why I brought up the example of women who actually damage their own "cause".
Playing: Risk of Rain 2, Jedi Fallen Order, Last of Us II
Watching: Tenet, Peninsula, The Pale Door
Avatar 51617
15.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 12:59
15.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 12:59
Jul 23, 2014, 12:59
 
The problem with this industry, it has far too many immature male kids in it and that sadly has nothing to do with age. Hence they really have a problem working with any female.

If women think it will get better by complaining that seems a lot of wishful thinking.
16.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 13:36
16.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 13:36
Jul 23, 2014, 13:36
 
HoSpanky wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 10:14:
And I'm willing to bet the EXACT SAME people who toss these comments ALSO wonder why they can't find a girlfriend, or complain that their girlfriend won't play games with them.

There's even proof of that.
17.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 13:41
17.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 13:41
Jul 23, 2014, 13:41
 
Ozmodan wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 12:59:
The problem with this industry, it has far too many immature male kids in it and that sadly has nothing to do with age. Hence they really have a problem working with any female.

If women think it will get better by complaining that seems a lot of wishful thinking.
I agree with you. But the problem IS the gaming industry. It targets adolescents. It makes sense to have immature men who can think like hormone driven teenagers.

And btw ladies, you shouldn't be too worried about the men in the game industry. They have never seen the inside of a gym, so I'm sure you can kick their butts.
18.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 14:08
UHD
18.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 14:08
Jul 23, 2014, 14:08
UHD
 
Verno wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 12:55:
UHD wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 12:18:
Then what was the point of bringing up those things, except to present the argument that their presence somehow counterbalances the real problems? I'm genuinely curious.

I explained it below, it's not a simple situation. These things happen for a variety of reasons and understanding the reasoning is important. It's also important to understand that there might be nothing people can realistically do about the problem other than allow time to pass. It's also important to acknowledge that women have a role in helping influence their own destiny too, thats why I brought up the example of women who actually damage their own "cause".

Time isn't going to naturally cure all wounds; women's suffrage wasn't a time-release issue. It took effort. You're right that it's not a simple problem with simple solutions. "Do nothing because that's just the way it is" is a simple solution.

I don't think the proverbial GAMERGURL harms the cause of "don't be a dick to women" because you shouldn't be projecting the GAMERGURL's peculiarities onto other women. Much like saying ALL gamer dudez are sexist pigs. It's obviously not true universally, but the sentiment works both ways and doesn't excuse shitty behavior in either case.
19.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 14:10
19.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 14:10
Jul 23, 2014, 14:10
 
Polygon's obsession with playing social justice warrior continues. Disabling comments on that story is the most fundamentally honest thing they've done all year. Their comments section has become a worthless echo-chamber filled with oh so concerned psuedo-feminist panderers. Any comment which doesn't pander to their pretensions is instantly deleted.

Feminism sees gaming nerds as an easy target for this kind of guilt trippery - because gaming nerds are poorly socialised, desperate to get laid and consequently will fall for this crap.

Trust me, little nerds, you fuck far more women by being an asshole than you do by pandering to them and putting up with their bullshit.
20.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 14:13
Beamer
 
20.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 14:13
Jul 23, 2014, 14:13
 Beamer
 
Wraith wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 14:10:
Polygon's obsession with playing social justice warrior continues. Disabling comments on that story is the most fundamentally honest thing they've done all year. Their comments section has become a worthless echo-chamber filled with oh so concerned psuedo-feminist panderers. Any comment which doesn't pander to their pretensions is instantly deleted.

Feminism sees gaming nerds as an easy target for this kind of guilt trippery - because gaming nerds are poorly socialised, desperate to get laid and consequently will fall for this crap.

Trust me, little nerds, you fuck far more women by being an asshole than you do by pandering to them and putting up with their bullshit.

It's always nice when someone makes a post defending themselves that just proves the article's point.
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