Op Ed

Polygon - No skin thick enough- The daily harassment of women in the game industry.
The problem with sharing these stories in broad terms is that people think men and women receive the same harassment online. They do not. I’m not writing this piece to evoke your sympathy. I’m writing to share with you what prominent, successful women in the industry experience, in their own words.

Rock, Paper, Shotgun - Game Names Are Almost Universally Terrible.
Seriously it’s not that hard why are you all so bad at this aauuugh.

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117 Replies. 6 pages. Viewing page 4.
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57.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 21:02
57.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 21:02
Jul 23, 2014, 21:02
 
With regards to the stalking and threats aspect of this article, I think that isn't something that can or should be dealt with by the community. Matters of that nature really should be presented to the authorities. Yes, it is horrible. Yes, it crosses the line. I just don't think there is much that the gaming community can do about someone who determinedly stalks someone even away and apart from the regular channels of communication like game forums.

The rest of the points being stated are not new and this isn't a new problem. The solution, IMO, does not start with angry articles of outrage. It is a societal problem that honestly begins with how responsible parents raise their children for the most part. By the time we start seeing the sexist/discriminatory behaviour in a game forum or social media, we're already at the 'too late' stage for the ones doing it.

56.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 20:52
56.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 20:52
Jul 23, 2014, 20:52
 
Draugr wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 20:01:
Quite frankly I haven't seen people drawing comparison to the civil rights movement in the way you claim.

You didn't read what he quoted? The guy you were arguing with didn't bring them up first, the person he was replying to was. It is that simple. He wasn't seriously making the comparison, he was just taking what someone else was already doing and pointing out why its outlandish.
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55.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 20:01
55.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 20:01
Jul 23, 2014, 20:01
 
Redmask wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 18:39:
Draugr wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 15:15:
So why make the ridiculous comparisons that you did? You were the one who offered them.

Other people first made comparisons to racial discrimination and other major issues. If they don't want the comparison made then they shouldn't bring it up. People who are comparing those to a gender issue in video games are really sheltered in my opinion, there are much bigger problems going on in the world to devote my support to.

Quite frankly I haven't seen people drawing comparison to the civil rights movement in the way you claim. Nobody on this thread has done so, so to pretend that people you disagree with are claiming it's *just like* the civil rights movements of the 1960's is just being disingenuous.
Sure you can point out how it's NOT similar to the 1960's, but nobody was arguing it was exactly like it, so you're kind of wasting your breath to pretend they were doing so.
54.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 19:48
NKD
54.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 19:48
Jul 23, 2014, 19:48
NKD
 
Bodolza wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 19:04:
See PETA for a perfect example.

That's actually a really good point that I think a lot of people miss.

Even if you're 100% right, even if you have the morally justified position, you have to be careful about overstating things because that will turn your allies into bystanders. It's like being the friend that gets a little too political about things. They are an awesome person, but when they cross a certain line you stop speaking up to defend them.

I'm probably one of the most progressive, liberal people you'll find, but I get so frustrated with the amount of energy wasted on First World Problems by Tumblr-esque activism.

Yes, there are problems that should be addressed in well-to-do segments of the population. I'm not suggesting that unless you're a starving gay atheist third world rape victim with AIDS you shouldn't be allowed to complain.

But you're going to have a much harder time garnering support from the public at large if you make them sick of hearing your voice.
Thou art an artless, greasy tallow-catch.
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53.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 19:04
53.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 19:04
Jul 23, 2014, 19:04
 
yuastnav wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 17:07:
So would you go to, say, a demonstration against the war in Vietnam and tell the people to stop protesting because hey, all wars are bad and you shouldn't just protest against this one but against wars in general.

Many people were protesting against ALL wars at the time. I wasn't there, but I'm guessing most of the anti-Vietnam protesters weren't okay with other wars. Peace and love.

You appear to have missed my point, anyways. I was responding to the argument that the same methods used to fight against racial discrimination in the 60s should be used to combat sexual harassment against female video game players.

My point is that national marches and rallies around the country in an attempt to get Congress to repeal and enact laws protecting female gamers, which is the methods used in the 60s, would be seen by many as a massive overreaction, and would actually turn potential supporters against them. See PETA for a perfect example.
52.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 18:43
52.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 18:43
Jul 23, 2014, 18:43
 
Funny how in my last development job in the game industry the regular harassment actually came FROM the top ranked woman on the staff.

Yes I realize that's anecdotal and yes I realize there's a much bigger problem in the industry. But the harassment can definitely cut both ways.

Wait... holy shit... one of the sections in this 'article' is basing itself on youtube comments to draw a conclusion of a problem in the gaming industry. Youtube comments... hahahahahahahahahaha what the shit hahahahahahaha
51.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 18:39
51.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 18:39
Jul 23, 2014, 18:39
 
Draugr wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 15:15:
So why make the ridiculous comparisons that you did? You were the one who offered them.

Other people first made comparisons to racial discrimination and other major issues. If they don't want the comparison made then they shouldn't bring it up. People who are comparing those to a gender issue in video games are really sheltered in my opinion, there are much bigger problems going on in the world to devote my support to.
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50.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 18:28
NKD
50.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 18:28
Jul 23, 2014, 18:28
NKD
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 18:24:
Beamer wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 17:18:
Another example of "hey, that's a problem, but look over here, there's another problem!" with a dash of "that may be a problem, but it doesn't affect me, however this problem over here does and it should also be important, how come this video game website hasn't discussed it!"
Hey look, it's a another example of: It's still a problem(and an increasing problem), with a case of there are plenty of other problems out there. And has been a longer on-going issue than the issue being discussed. Why is that people think that only their special problem is the only thing worthy of attention, especially when an issue actually effects both genders.

Getting a bunch of 20 somethings to click on your article about old people getting shafted in the work place is probably not going to be too easy, so it'll be difficult to get it past your editor. Especially at a place like Polygawful.
Thou art an artless, greasy tallow-catch.
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49.
 
No subject
Jul 23, 2014, 18:24
49.
No subject Jul 23, 2014, 18:24
Jul 23, 2014, 18:24
 
Beamer wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 17:18:
Another example of "hey, that's a problem, but look over here, there's another problem!" with a dash of "that may be a problem, but it doesn't affect me, however this problem over here does and it should also be important, how come this video game website hasn't discussed it!"
Hey look, it's a another example of: It's still a problem(and an increasing problem), with a case of there are plenty of other problems out there. And has been a longer on-going issue than the issue being discussed. Why is that people think that only their special problem is the only thing worthy of attention, especially when an issue actually effects both genders.
--
"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
48.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 18:10
NKD
48.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 18:10
Jul 23, 2014, 18:10
NKD
 
Agent.X7 wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 15:37:
If you click on Polygon articles I would like you to post your name and address so I can come slap some sense into you.

I'll come along and we can make it like this video.

"Do you post on Blue's News under the user name Cutter?"

"Did you comment on some shitty Polygon Tumblr SJW style article?"

Then proceed with the ass whipping.
Thou art an artless, greasy tallow-catch.
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47.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 18:05
Verno
 
47.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 18:05
Jul 23, 2014, 18:05
 Verno
 
UHD wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 15:10:
Your presumption is that the gender spread will equalize (assuming 50/50 I guess) and that equal representation will solve the problem outright. That's not necessarily the case, particularly if the culture doesn't change, and it doesn't make it okay to handwave the current state of affairs.

I didn't handwave anything, I addressed it in a realistic manner rather than getting all dramatic and assuming I could "fix" the problem if I summoned enough outrage and posted online enough times. I know that it is a problem that can't be easily boiled down to bullet points and resolved like a 30 minute sitcom. It also affects other races and yes men as well.

It is absolutely harmful because it furthers the idea that men should look at women as sexual objects first and people second. That is one of the main points of the article. Women can't complain on one hand while ignoring it on the other. If we must endure a hundred articles on this subject then they can write some aimed at the women who are also prolonging that mentality.

You're blaming the victim. How do you not see that?

Nonsense, I was addressing a relevant point that is directly referenced in the article.
Playing: FF7R
Watching: The Last Dance
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46.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 17:24
46.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 17:24
Jul 23, 2014, 17:24
 
im insulted! and angry! and most importantly IM RIGHT!

what a rush
45.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 17:18
Beamer
 
45.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 17:18
Jul 23, 2014, 17:18
 Beamer
 
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 17:12:
Beamer wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 16:34:
Article on a video game site != march on Washington.

Plus, please, some time go to GDC and count the women in the "I want a job" section, then count the women in the "I have a job" section.

It's a bit shocking.
Why not check out the amount of agism in the IT industry then(not sure if it was mentioned I only skimmed the thread), I've seen exceptionally capable people who are excellent in their field be canned because they hit the "big 50" and some pretentious douche-nozzle decided that they were too old to "know what they were talking about" replacing them with someone 30 years their junior, who had no clue. And seen $100m projects fail and suffer because of it. I know two people who've filed lawsuits against the company they worked for, and said companies are under investigation not only by the labor board but two different HRC's.

Another example of "hey, that's a problem, but look over here, there's another problem!" with a dash of "that may be a problem, but it doesn't affect me, however this problem over here does and it should also be important, how come this video game website hasn't discussed it!"
44.
 
No subject
Jul 23, 2014, 17:12
44.
No subject Jul 23, 2014, 17:12
Jul 23, 2014, 17:12
 
Beamer wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 16:34:
Article on a video game site != march on Washington.

Plus, please, some time go to GDC and count the women in the "I want a job" section, then count the women in the "I have a job" section.

It's a bit shocking.
Why not check out the amount of agism in the IT industry then(not sure if it was mentioned I only skimmed the thread), I've seen exceptionally capable people who are excellent in their field be canned because they hit the "big 50" and some pretentious douche-nozzle decided that they were too old to "know what they were talking about" replacing them with someone 30 years their junior, who had no clue. And seen $100m projects fail and suffer because of it. I know two people who've filed lawsuits against the company they worked for, and said companies are under investigation not only by the labor board but two different HRC's.
--
"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
43.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 17:07
43.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 17:07
Jul 23, 2014, 17:07
 
TheEmissary wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 14:52:
jdreyer wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 14:45:
1960s: Those people that write about racial inequality should just shut up already. Constantly writing about it won't do anything.

It should be talked about but not at the expense of ignoring other similar issues. There is lot of discrimination and harassment in general that needs to be sorted out. It isn't like women are the only groups getting harassed. Its just one of the more visual groups.

The tech industry discriminates against people based on age quite a lot and other industries have there other biases.


So would you go to, say, a demonstration against the war in Vietnam and tell the people to stop protesting because hey, all wars are bad and you shouldn't just protest against this one but against wars in general.
I mean, I get the point, but the point seems kind of ridiculous.

Of course all harassment is bad but sometimes you have to focus to get your message across clearly.
42.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 16:34
Beamer
 
42.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 16:34
Jul 23, 2014, 16:34
 Beamer
 
Bodolza wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 16:27:
jdreyer wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 16:14:
[Second, while gender harassment in games is not as deadly as the fight for civil rights back in the 1960s, the same methods for mitigating it apply.

I don't agree. The degree of the response should be equal to the degree of the problem. For example, an large march on Washington for non-harassment in video games would turn off many people who'd see it as an over-reaction. Especially since, as you said, women in some countries have actual life-threatening situations they have to deal with.

Article on a video game site != march on Washington.

Plus, please, some time go to GDC and count the women in the "I want a job" section, then count the women in the "I have a job" section.

It's a bit shocking.
41.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 16:27
41.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 16:27
Jul 23, 2014, 16:27
 
jdreyer wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 16:14:
[Second, while gender harassment in games is not as deadly as the fight for civil rights back in the 1960s, the same methods for mitigating it apply.

I don't agree. The degree of the response should be equal to the degree of the problem. For example, an large march on Washington for non-harassment in video games would turn off many people who'd see it as an over-reaction. Especially since, as you said, women in some countries have actual life-threatening situations they have to deal with.
40.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 16:14
40.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 16:14
Jul 23, 2014, 16:14
 
Bodolza wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 15:02:
jdreyer wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 14:45:
1960s: Those people that write about racial inequality should just shut up already. Constantly writing about it won't do anything.

Are people burning symbols on women's lawns? How many games have "men only" sections, and will beat up women if they try to play? Are there parades in city streets promoting the superiority of men over women? How many women have been literally hung for gaming?

Ridiculous comparisons only succeed in turning off those who might actually support a cause.

First, gender discrimination was just as deadly and ingrained as racial discrimination, and still is in many countries.

Second, while gender harassment in games is not as deadly as the fight for civil rights back in the 1960s, the same methods for mitigating it apply.
“We’ve reached the point of this polarized pandemic where our current plan for salvation is convincing certain recalcitrant men that wearing masks is the testosteroney thing to do.“
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39.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 16:04
39.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 16:04
Jul 23, 2014, 16:04
 
TheEmissary wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 14:52:
jdreyer wrote on Jul 23, 2014, 14:45:
1960s: Those people that write about racial inequality should just shut up already. Constantly writing about it won't do anything.

It should be talked about but not at the expense of ignoring other similar issues. There is lot of discrimination and harassment in general that needs to be sorted out. It isn't like women are the only groups getting harassed. Its just one of the more visual groups.

The tech industry discriminates against people based on age quite a lot and other industries have there other biases.


Who's ignoring other issues and other groups? The internet is infinite, it's not like a newspaper that has a set number of pages. Also, while there are other groups out there, women are by far the largest. Technically, they're not even a minority since they outnumber men.
“We’ve reached the point of this polarized pandemic where our current plan for salvation is convincing certain recalcitrant men that wearing masks is the testosteroney thing to do.“
Avatar 22024
38.
 
Re: Op Ed
Jul 23, 2014, 15:44
38.
Re: Op Ed Jul 23, 2014, 15:44
Jul 23, 2014, 15:44
 
Isaiah Berlin's concept of plurality seems to apply here:
http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/vl/notes/berlin.html

Specifically,
The fact that men are men and women are women and not dogs or cats or tables or chairs is an objective fact; and part of this objective fact is that there are certain values, and only those values, which men, while remaining men, can pursue. If I am a man or a woman with sufficient imagination (and this I do need), I can enter into a value system which is not my own, but which is nevertheless something I can conceive of men pursuing while remaining human, while remaining creatures with whom I can communicate, with whom I have some common values -- for all human beings must have some common values or they cease to be human, and also some different values else they cease to differ, as in fact they do.

(The Proper Study of Mankind)
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