Out of the Blue

My football picks have continued their downward spiral, in fact there are only four players in our pool with fewer winners picked than me so far, and 75% of them have not actually made picks for every game. It's getting to the point where the word "Thursday" is causing me to twitch like Chief Inspector Dreyfus from the Pink Panther movies. This, of course, sets the stage for the most dramatic comeback ever. Not that I will accomplish this, but I want to salute the stagehands for their hard work.

Picky Links: Thanks Ant and Acleacius.
Play: Retro video game quiz - can you name the games?
Harry Likes Plums.
Grand Truckismo.
Links: Man Masqueraded As Lawman To Secure "Police Discount" Donuts. Thanks Boing Boing.
Is Andy Kaufman Still Alive?
Stories: The coach who never punts. Thanks Digg.
Science: Innovative Shower Reduces Water Usage by 90%, Electricity by 80%.
Space radiation: Should frequent flyers worry? Thanks Digg.
Media: Bad Dubs: StarCraft II.
Angel gets fired from the X-Men.
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28 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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28.
 
Wyoming
Nov 15, 2013, 08:09
28.
Wyoming Nov 15, 2013, 08:09
Nov 15, 2013, 08:09
 
Cutter wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 18:30:
No, that's not true. These are guys I've known for years and trust. Besides I've never seen a water heater break down in my life. And if they are breaking down, that means more work for them so they'd be encouraging people to buy them. I dunno haven't really done much research on them to be honest. So long as I have hot water, I'm happy. And living in where we do, Bats, it's not like we lack fresh water. Sorry to all you fuckers that live in the deserts but that's the tradeoff, you get hot and dry, we get wet and cold.

If you live in an area with relatively hard water (ground water or most water on the Eastern side of the US [dunno about Canada]) you have hard water. With hard water you can expect a typical gas or electric hot water heater to last 10 years on average. Anything past that even with maintenance is living on borrowed time.

When they go it can be very bad. One thing to check from time to time is the pressure relief valve at the top of the tank:

How to test your relief valve.

It is my understanding that the main reason that people don't go with the tankless heaters vs. the old style is cost and return on investment. On average people move from a home before they can achieve the cost savings you would see from installing a more expensive tankless heater vs the old style.
-TPFKAS2S
Avatar 10139
27.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 18:51
27.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 18:51
Nov 14, 2013, 18:51
 
1badmf wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 18:10:
if they're truly as mature as some of you say, it should be made law that they're installed in all new homes. i've lived in and been in countless people's homes and i've never seen one. bats are your energy savings as great as i imagine?

I don't have them yet. but when I leave town even fora weekend, I turn down my water heater to the min setting and see substantial savings just for weekends - so I can only imagine how great he savings are with in line water heaters.

They are expensive up front, but in the long haul you have huge savings. That is why they are putting them in new houses. You need to set a side a little space if you want to have it look nice, but can be done with a current setup, just have to run more lines to and from the unit. Be more efficient in a new home where you can build spaces for them and not run lines as far.
26.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 18:48
26.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 18:48
Nov 14, 2013, 18:48
 
Cutter wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 18:30:
xXBatmanXx wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 17:31:
They tell you that because they are super reliable and don't require the vast amounts of work and upkeep that normal ones do. Old timers don't like change.

I have a number of people I know that install them and use them - and they have great things to say about it. I thought we had a lengthy conversation about them here a few years ago - and I hope to put them in my next home.

No, that's not true. These are guys I've known for years and trust. Besides I've never seen a water heater break down in my life. And if they are breaking down, that means more work for them so they'd be encouraging people to buy them. I dunno haven't really done much research on them to be honest. So long as I have hot water, I'm happy. And living in where we do, Bats, it's not like we lack fresh water. Sorry to all you fuckers that live in the deserts but that's the tradeoff, you get hot and dry, we get wet and cold.

huh? I have replaced a number of water heaters for friends and family over the years.....
25.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 18:30
25.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 18:30
Nov 14, 2013, 18:30
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 17:31:
They tell you that because they are super reliable and don't require the vast amounts of work and upkeep that normal ones do. Old timers don't like change.

I have a number of people I know that install them and use them - and they have great things to say about it. I thought we had a lengthy conversation about them here a few years ago - and I hope to put them in my next home.

No, that's not true. These are guys I've known for years and trust. Besides I've never seen a water heater break down in my life. And if they are breaking down, that means more work for them so they'd be encouraging people to buy them. I dunno haven't really done much research on them to be honest. So long as I have hot water, I'm happy. And living in where we do, Bats, it's not like we lack fresh water. Sorry to all you fuckers that live in the deserts but that's the tradeoff, you get hot and dry, we get wet and cold.
"Van Gogh painted alone and in despair and in madness and sold one picture in his entire life. Millions struggled alone, unrecognized, and struggled as heroically as any famous hero. Was it worthless? I knew it wasn't."
24.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 18:10
24.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 18:10
Nov 14, 2013, 18:10
 
if they're truly as mature as some of you say, it should be made law that they're installed in all new homes. i've lived in and been in countless people's homes and i've never seen one. bats are your energy savings as great as i imagine?
23.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 18:09
23.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 18:09
Nov 14, 2013, 18:09
 
Well, of course you can buy them, but houses aren't built standard with them, and a large amount of houses aren't hooked up to the gas grid, so they have to deal with the bullshit that's the propane tank. (A house not a mile away from me had lightning strike their propane tank and burned down to the ground. yay.)

of course, we also still have such luminous things as above-ground powerlines.
Avatar 15604
22.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 17:48
mag
22.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 17:48
Nov 14, 2013, 17:48
mag
 
Creston wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 17:20:
1badmf wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 09:49:
2) instead of using a water heater like all homes have that keep a volume of water heated all the time,

It's only in this third world country called the US where that shit still happens. Just about every other actual non-third world country just has gas-powered heaters that heat water when required, and not when it's not.

It's especially nice in the winter time, when you don't run out of hot water in ten fucking minutes.

MOST ADVANCED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD my ass.

You can get them in the US. You can buy them at Home fucking Depot.
21.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 17:45
21.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 17:45
Nov 14, 2013, 17:45
 
The cost difference between a tank heater and tankless heater eats away a huge chunk of the savings. And, in theory, you should have them descaled every year.

I had one in my last apartment. The lag time was infuriating - only 10-15 seconds in the shower but sometimes minutes to a sink. Never running out of water in the shower was pretty great, though. If I owned I would lean heavily towards one.

My new apartment is set up like a hotel - we get a flat water charge to the apartment and that's that - there's a communal heater in the basement, or on the roof, or wherever they put it. No lag, enormous reserve - I like it.
20.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 17:31
20.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 17:31
Nov 14, 2013, 17:31
 
Cutter wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 10:33:
I've asked a few plumbers over the years about instant-on water heaters and none have anything good to say about them. They've told me that they don't work as well and have a tendency to break down a lot. I agree with them in theory at any rate. Still, how much would a shower like this cost to install? And there's no way the filters for something like this can be cheap and would probably have to be replaced a lot. So how much energy is going into making and transporting those? So is there any real net benefit in the long run?

Better, I think, to use renewable energy to power those water heaters in the first place. And recoup that water into some sort of gray water collection system for other uses.

They tell you that because they are super reliable and don't require the vast amounts of work and upkeep that normal ones do. Old timers don't like change.

I have a number of people I know that install them and use them - and they have great things to say about it. I thought we had a lengthy conversation about them here a few years ago - and I hope to put them in my next home.
19.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 17:31
19.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 17:31
Nov 14, 2013, 17:31
18.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 17:20
18.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 17:20
Nov 14, 2013, 17:20
 
1badmf wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 09:49:
2) instead of using a water heater like all homes have that keep a volume of water heated all the time,

It's only in this third world country called the US where that shit still happens. Just about every other actual non-third world country just has gas-powered heaters that heat water when required, and not when it's not.

It's especially nice in the winter time, when you don't run out of hot water in ten fucking minutes.

MOST ADVANCED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD my ass.
Avatar 15604
17.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 17:18
17.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 17:18
Nov 14, 2013, 17:18
 
Don't mess with Rogue! Rogue is HAWT. (not the movie version, though Anna Paquin certainly isn't ugly, but the comic version.)
Avatar 15604
16.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 17:12
Prez
 
16.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 17:12
Nov 14, 2013, 17:12
 Prez
 
Hasta La Vista Angel! Truly an utterly worthless X-Man. Now to get rid of Rogue...
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
Avatar 17185
15.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 11:51
Jivaro
 
15.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 11:51
Nov 14, 2013, 11:51
 Jivaro
 
RoboNerd wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 10:54:
One thing to remember is if you lose electrical power you can't generate hot water as the unit needs juice for the electronic controls.

You could put an APC battery backup (or whatever brand) on it for that purpose, could you not? I have a battery backup system installed for my garage door opener and I have it wired into the control system for my sprinkler system and security system as well. We have standard tank water heater right now but we want to switch to a tankless heater sometime in the next 4-5 years. I had assumed I could wire it into the battery backup system like the other stuff. Of course, by that time we might have our generator installed into the system, so it may not matter. Out here in earthquake country (California), it's good to have 1-4 days of personal electrical capability for whatever you consider mission critical systems. (even its just so you can turn them off properly, like the sprinkler system)
Avatar 55841
14.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 10:56
Rigs
 
14.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 10:56
Nov 14, 2013, 10:56
 Rigs
 
And look who sits in last place...oh, right - ME! Probably only because I didn't start until the second week and then I went with 'intuition' which, for football, I have like NONE, so I fell - HARD! After the first two weeks, I stopped using my brain and went with the majority, with the exception of all GIANTS games, of course, and some that I felt might be 'sure things', like the Bucs couldn't possibly lose 5/6/7 games in a row...could they? (FFFFFUUUUUU....!) I also always go for Dallas because it was my fathers team. And yes, the 49-17 slaughter they took last week made me cringe. It downright made me sick to my stomach! How the HELL do you lose so bad? Geezus...

I've noticed that even though I have a 57% success rate, once you fall down to the bottom levels, it's almost impossible to make it up unless you manage to get every single one right, which is...almost impossible. I don't care what anyone says, these things are by luck and I think everyone's record shows this...


=-Rigs-=
Dec 10th, '21 Mayfield EF4 tornado survivor
'Sorry, we thought you were dead.'
'I was. I'm better now.'
Avatar 14292
13.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 10:54
13.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 10:54
Nov 14, 2013, 10:54
 
Raven wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 10:17:
1badmf wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 09:49:
i'm pretty sure the theory is sound, and engineering problems only take time and money to overcome

Tankless water heaters exist. They are quite popular in some countries/areas.

My wife and I installed a gas tankless hot water heater five years ago. No problems with it so far. The only routine upkeep is to circulate vinegar through the unit about once a year to keep the scale from our hard water from crudding up the system. I had the company who installed the unit come out and do that the first time then once I saw how easy it was I have done it since. One thing to remember is if you lose electrical power you can't generate hot water as the unit needs juice for the electronic controls.

FYI we are located just outside KC and I refuse to follow most of the BlueNews league and bet against the Chiefs. GO CHIEFS! Number1
Avatar 33441
12.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 10:40
nin
12.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 10:40
Nov 14, 2013, 10:40
nin
 
Raven wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 10:17:
1badmf wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 09:49:
i'm pretty sure the theory is sound, and engineering problems only take time and money to overcome

Tankless water heaters exist. They are quite popular in some countries/areas.

Hey, if they're good enough for Walter White...!

11.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 10:33
11.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 10:33
Nov 14, 2013, 10:33
 
I've asked a few plumbers over the years about instant-on water heaters and none have anything good to say about them. They've told me that they don't work as well and have a tendency to break down a lot. I agree with them in theory at any rate. Still, how much would a shower like this cost to install? And there's no way the filters for something like this can be cheap and would probably have to be replaced a lot. So how much energy is going into making and transporting those? So is there any real net benefit in the long run?

Better, I think, to use renewable energy to power those water heaters in the first place. And recoup that water into some sort of gray water collection system for other uses.
"Van Gogh painted alone and in despair and in madness and sold one picture in his entire life. Millions struggled alone, unrecognized, and struggled as heroically as any famous hero. Was it worthless? I knew it wasn't."
10.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 10:17
10.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 10:17
Nov 14, 2013, 10:17
 
1badmf wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 09:49:
i'm pretty sure the theory is sound, and engineering problems only take time and money to overcome

Tankless water heaters exist. They are quite popular in some countries/areas.
9.
 
Re: Out of the Blue
Nov 14, 2013, 10:16
9.
Re: Out of the Blue Nov 14, 2013, 10:16
Nov 14, 2013, 10:16
 
InBlack wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 09:59:
1badmf wrote on Nov 14, 2013, 09:49:
about the shower thing, it's always been so incredibly inefficient, i've always wondered why someone wouldn't improve upon it with a few obvious steps.

1) recycle the water as in the article
2) instead of using a water heater like all homes have that keep a volume of water heated all the time, why not use heating elements on pipes that only heat when there's need for it? seems to me like keeping the water tank heated throughout the night when nobody's awake is a MASSIVE waste of energy to me. i know there would be engineering hurdles, but i'm pretty sure the theory is sound, and engineering problems only take time and money to overcome, and the economic, environmental, and thermal savings could potentially be massive.

I dont know how its done in the US but over here in Europe, most modern homes have gas powered boilers that only heat the water when its running without the need for large tanks or anything. My parents have a system from Valiant installed that works like that. My GF's last flat had one like that also. Pretty standard shit, but you obviously need to be connected to gas mains.

you guys have that??! wow, whoever brought it over here would probably make a killing if advertised effectively. every house i've ever lived in had a tank for a water heater. also most houses over here are connected to gas mains, not that it really matters since heating could also be done with electrical elements, although that's probably less efficient than gas.
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