SlimRam wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 23:39:
If you remember, the Falcon had probably minimal shields, didn't look like much, but was VERY FAST and quite maneuverable for her size (she could almost out fly tie fighters).....Also i'll have to make some hidden cargo areas....for hiding myself if I get boarded *Cue the Darth Vader theme* DUM DUM DI DUM DUM DI DUM DUM DI DUM

I don't want to go all super nerd on you but the Falcon had ridiculously good shielding along with Imperial cruiser class hull plating (ablative armour). In almost any game system which limits the ability for a player to pack tech on a ship, it would be considered WTFOP

I gotta say though, there is some sort of divine madness surrounding this project. The TOG (The Older Gamers, I'm a member) 'fleet' consists of 116 members, 260 ships including 4 fucking Idris corvettes (3x P and one of the limited M variants) and a Vanduul Scythe (also limited)...

We're looking at a combined 'investment' of 30+ grand so far (the Rear Admiral pack with the Idris P runs 5,000 USD...), and every new ship released get's quite a few purchases.

I've felt burnt before dropping a couple of hundred on a lifetime sub for The Secret World. There's no way in hell I would drop 5 fucking thousand on a virtual spaceship for a game I don't even know if I like yet..

Scottso wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 04:18:
Yes, when the engine they are using gives you that practically for free its mostly cosmetic.

You realize CryEngine is just an engine, right? Just because Crytek made an FPS with it, doesn't mean the engine itself just has a "Create FPS" button in it.

Anyway, while I may come off negative, I do genuinely hope this game will be awesome, because I will gladly buy a Big Fat Edition copy on day 1 and enjoy the living hell out of it. All I personally want it to be, though, is a new Privateer. I don't want it to become that and fifteen other things. Having an FPS in a space sim seems utterly ridiculous.

Ryan Lange wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 04:44:

Harlequin wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 13:16:
...the scope is going to too massive for a small team.

Well, apparently one of the reasons they keep adding new features as they get more money is because they'll be spending that money on hiring additional talent to help implement those features.

I'm pretty confident that they're not dumb enough to think that more money alone magically allows the same size team to pump out significantly more content.

Agree it's ambitious but heh, all of this is also in the original game design. As they clear the funding milestones extra options open up. They aren't making it up on the day they break another million in funding! They'll be developed piecemeal after release and some/most may get cut but this is the normal development process, it's just not usually transparent.

RE: FPS. Check out some of the mod content out there for the hangar, you have people running around with guns already. No one expects it to be a deep feature rich FPS game in itself, just an expanded version of ship boarding that includes landing sites aswell.

Harlequin wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 13:16:
...the scope is going to too massive for a small team.

Well, apparently one of the reasons they keep adding new features as they get more money is because they'll be spending that money on hiring additional talent to help implement those features.

I'm pretty confident that they're not dumb enough to think that more money alone magically allows the same size team to pump out significantly more content.

Scottso wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 04:18:
They pretty much only need to come up with the art assets and they get the FPS.

Wow. You might as well tattoo "I believe" on your forehead and gouge out your eyes because you obviously dont need them. Sonny have you ever created digital art assets for anything?? A hint, the engine used has nothing to do with content creation...

Flatline wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 03:38:
Integrating FPS into a space sim game is mostly cosmetic?

Yes, when the engine they are using gives you that practically for free its mostly cosmetic. They pretty much only need to come up with the art assets and they get the FPS. I assume you have the hanger? How is that not an FPS? The only thing missing is "pew pew" because you don't happen to have a gun on your character model and you have nothing to shoot. So I personally don't see the FPS stuff being an issue at all. If you buy the buggy you even get an extra part of your hanger that has a little obstacle course to cruise around in. Because it was simple to add.

Here's an interesting thread on the engine:

A reminder of what the Cryengine can do for Star Citizen


Anyway, if folks have serious doubts and don't think its going to be good, then don't spend the money, yay. Obviously $22+ million disagree with that opinion and time will tell if it was justified or not. I think its good either way, personally. If this works out it shows how much crowdsourcing is the better model, and if it does not then it shows how much it's broken. I personally hope it totally works out because then companies like EA will be going away and the end users will be the ones to decide what is worth making and what is valuable.

CJ_Parker wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 19:47:

Scottso wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 19:16:
I don't think that's altogether fair considering Robert's past history with these sorts of games.

Oh yeah? The last game that Chris Roberts worked on was Freelancer and you might want to read up on the development history of that game. The short version is that Roberts got degraded to "consultant" because the project was a clusterfuck. It suffered delay after delay and in the end it was taken away from Roberts so it wouldn't end up as vaporware.
The Wing Commanders, while awesome games at their time, were also troubled by hefty delays and feature cuts because Roberts was always way too ambitious for his own good.

There is plenty of reason to be concerned about Star Citizen given the massive scope of the project. Chris Roberts is riding the razorblade between madness and genius. Outcome undetermined but wish him luck. He's gonna need it.

Also, I agree with the sentiment that this game is losing focus. Most of the core audience wanted a modern Wing Commander or XWing. Not a FPS.
And also not a game where you have to micro-manage shit to death like taking care of ship insurance, hangar fees, taxes and all that crap that is going to take away from the actual piloting.

This is well said. I would also like to add one more thing to the discussion. If this game fails hard due to Roberts overambition, greed or whatever, publishers are going to have one more excuse to stay away from space sims and potential fans/customers will be so butthurt and burned out by the whole ordeal that they will never pledge money for a space sim ever again.

I would have been more than satisfied with just the military campaign SP, and this is the first thing that should have been released and would go a long way towards proving that Star Citizen is not vapourware. The "Dogfighting Module" and "Hangar Module" stinks, no REEKS of World of Tanks in Space and Roberts can go fuck himself with that for all I care...

Scottso wrote on Oct 15, 2013, 01:11:

CJ_Parker wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 19:47:

Scottso wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 19:16:
I don't think that's altogether fair considering Robert's past history with these sorts of games.

Oh yeah?

Yeah. So right up until Freelancer he was kicking ass with amazing games that defined the genre. One project with problems and "OMG WHAT A CLUSTERFUCK!" Besides, MS bought up Digital Anvil right when all these "problems" were happening. That's when he became a "consultant." Big paycheck doesn't seem like that much of a clusterfuck to me. Despite all that, it came out just fine and people remember it quite fondly even after they removed some of the really ambitious features to push it out quickly.

I think the scope of Star Citizen is just about right. All "new" features are down to simple cosmetic things. Even the last big stretch goal was technology to put real peoples' faces on characters/npcs instead of promising some potentially out of reach game feature. It would seem to me they are pretty clear and focused on the base game now. $22+ million is a LOT of money, especially if you don't have to pay anyone except your dev team and rent an office. 50 developers, which is a lot, at $100K a year (lets say including insurance, 401K etc.) you will lay out $5 million, so $10 million for a 2 year dev cycle to release. The other $12+ million you have on hand is quite a lot of padding without counting how much you rake in after you release, assuming its even modestly successful. Especially if you are making interest on it. There are no investors to pay off with money. You're paying them off by making a game they want to play.

In any case, time will tell. I'm sure it will be be impossible to meet some of the crazy expectations that always revolve around these sorts of things, but the fact that they have multiple development teams working on separate modular pieces seems to be built in insurance. Assuming they get the space combat stuff out and its fun, everything else is just a piece they can refine and add as it's ready. That model already works (see Eve Online.) To be honest, in general, I am just as skeptical as you are, but in this case I don't see anything really that unreasonable.

I also have to admit, although its relatively simple stuff, imo the hangar is pretty impressive. Especially if you have some of the larger ships in it. It definitely makes you want to see these things flying in space and if they keep paying attention to player/backer input like they have, I think it has the potential to be one of those games you just have to play "for one more hour."

Sorry to be the lone optimist in this thread.

Integrating FPS into a space sim game is mostly cosmetic?

Again, I really hope I'm wrong, but we sunk 22 million into an idea and a reputation. We *still* don't have any concrete, tangible gameplay to base any of the hype on (ie: what exactly are you buying with your 500 dollar spaceship?) beyond a single room with a single model in it we could run around in, that took months to debug fully.

CJ_Parker wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 19:47:

Scottso wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 19:16:
I don't think that's altogether fair considering Robert's past history with these sorts of games.

Oh yeah?

Yeah. So right up until Freelancer he was kicking ass with amazing games that defined the genre. One project with problems and "OMG WHAT A CLUSTERFUCK!" Besides, MS bought up Digital Anvil right when all these "problems" were happening. That's when he became a "consultant." Big paycheck doesn't seem like that much of a clusterfuck to me. Despite all that, it came out just fine and people remember it quite fondly even after they removed some of the really ambitious features to push it out quickly.

I think the scope of Star Citizen is just about right. All "new" features are down to simple cosmetic things. Even the last big stretch goal was technology to put real peoples' faces on characters/npcs instead of promising some potentially out of reach game feature. It would seem to me they are pretty clear and focused on the base game now. $22+ million is a LOT of money, especially if you don't have to pay anyone except your dev team and rent an office. 50 developers, which is a lot, at $100K a year (lets say including insurance, 401K etc.) you will lay out $5 million, so $10 million for a 2 year dev cycle to release. The other $12+ million you have on hand is quite a lot of padding without counting how much you rake in after you release, assuming its even modestly successful. Especially if you are making interest on it. There are no investors to pay off with money. You're paying them off by making a game they want to play.

In any case, time will tell. I'm sure it will be be impossible to meet some of the crazy expectations that always revolve around these sorts of things, but the fact that they have multiple development teams working on separate modular pieces seems to be built in insurance. Assuming they get the space combat stuff out and its fun, everything else is just a piece they can refine and add as it's ready. That model already works (see Eve Online.) To be honest, in general, I am just as skeptical as you are, but in this case I don't see anything really that unreasonable.

I also have to admit, although its relatively simple stuff, imo the hangar is pretty impressive. Especially if you have some of the larger ships in it. It definitely makes you want to see these things flying in space and if they keep paying attention to player/backer input like they have, I think it has the potential to be one of those games you just have to play "for one more hour."

Sorry to be the lone optimist in this thread.

Pr()ZaC wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 17:17:

BadIronTree wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 16:55:
THERE ARE NO shareholders or investors that need to make money ... So the game will be HARD. Its a SIM. No need to damm it down to get a bigger target Group !!!

u mad?

It's bad enough you have a juvenile username, at least keep your goofy, outdated, baiting comments to yourself, or better yet, just find another site that embraces your special kind of sadness.

jdreyer wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 20:58:

RavingArmy wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 19:37:

jdreyer wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 14:13:
That Aurora looks sweet.

The thing about free traders I always wondered about though is this: When you play a military style space sim, it makes sense that your ship is tricked out with weaps and stuff since you're in the military. But for trading ships, that never made sense to me. It's not like people today outfit their DC9s or Learjets with 0.50 cal MGs and Stingers.

True, but midair piracy hasn't really been a practical criminal enterprise. It helps to think in nautical terms. Age of Sail freighters and other ships who were definitely not a man-of-war still carried armaments. They weren't as heavily armed as a ship of the line or even a frigate, but they had enough firepower to discourage smaller raiders who didn't have the means to fight it out or the sense to withdraw. Larger pirate crews, on the other hand, could take the losses and still make out pretty well on the deal.

Yeah, that's a good point. Hell, Captian Phillips is in theaters right now. If that ship had been armed, none of that would have happened.

I also thought about it a bit more and realized a wild west paradigm applied as well. Wagon trains were not military, but were always armed due to the dangers of the frontiers. I guess if your space environment is a frontier, then it makes sense.

I'm pretty sure i'm going to be a space salvage guy, already got a slogan picked out: "SlimRam's Salvage: If The Part Looks Like It Came Off Your Ship, It Probably Did But, Your Still Paying Full Price" Nifty eh?

Uh, as far as piracy goes i'm going to try the 'Millennium Falcon' approach if possible. I'd like to be able to make a freighter that holds quite a bit, has enough firepower to keep little guys away, but is also DAMN FAST! I don't plan on sticking around when the shit gets hairy. If you remember, the Falcon had probably minimal shields, didn't look like much, but was VERY FAST and quite maneuverable for her size (she could almost out fly tie fighters).....Also i'll have to make some hidden cargo areas....for hiding myself if I get boarded *Cue the Darth Vader theme* DUM DUM DI DUM DUM DI DUM DUM DI DUM

As a minor aside:

High-End SC is going to require a customized PC build (in my mind anyway) with certain peripherals and maybe certain hardware/firmware/software combinations that cater to the specifics of the Cry Engine, making the best of out your hardware.

It's nearing the point now where PCs have become consoles in that you put an OS, game, and maybe some utilities on an SSD and when you want to play SC, you pop that SSD in your dock and boot from that. When you are done and want to play something else, you pop that SSD out and the other SSD, say BF4, into the dock, Just like a console cartridge you don't ever have to blow on.

The point of PC gaming is to prevent that, but with WinXP still as strong as ever, Win7 with DX11 mainstream and now Win8 making a presence and even possibly Linux/Steam being usable on a high-end PC, you can or should consider multiple smaller SSDs.

RavingArmy wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 19:37:

jdreyer wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 14:13:
That Aurora looks sweet.

The thing about free traders I always wondered about though is this: When you play a military style space sim, it makes sense that your ship is tricked out with weaps and stuff since you're in the military. But for trading ships, that never made sense to me. It's not like people today outfit their DC9s or Learjets with 0.50 cal MGs and Stingers.

True, but midair piracy hasn't really been a practical criminal enterprise. It helps to think in nautical terms. Age of Sail freighters and other ships who were definitely not a man-of-war still carried armaments. They weren't as heavily armed as a ship of the line or even a frigate, but they had enough firepower to discourage smaller raiders who didn't have the means to fight it out or the sense to withdraw. Larger pirate crews, on the other hand, could take the losses and still make out pretty well on the deal.

Yeah, that's a good point. Hell, Captian Phillips is in theaters right now. If that ship had been armed, none of that would have happened.

I also thought about it a bit more and realized a wild west paradigm applied as well. Wagon trains were not military, but were always armed due to the dangers of the frontiers. I guess if your space environment is a frontier, then it makes sense.

jdreyer wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 14:08:

Too big? Still a fifth the budget of a typical CoD or GTA.

Actually closer to 1/10 of GTA's budget. GTA5, with advert budget, was ~250mil according to reports FYI.

jdreyer wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 17:26:

Cutter wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 16:43:
I still this game should come standard with a small tube of lube. There are going to be a lot of chaffed asses over this thing eventually.

You still haven't explained your negativity. Given how stoked you are about X: Rebirth, I don't understand why you're hating so hard on this. Is it just the MMO aspect of it?

Yes we have, several times. If you're really that interested go back and search those threads. There will be shitstorms around this game.

Scottso wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 19:16:
I don't think that's altogether fair considering Robert's past history with these sorts of games.

Oh yeah? The last game that Chris Roberts worked on was Freelancer and you might want to read up on the development history of that game. The short version is that Roberts got degraded to "consultant" because the project was a clusterfuck. It suffered delay after delay and in the end it was taken away from Roberts so it wouldn't end up as vaporware.
The Wing Commanders, while awesome games at their time, were also troubled by hefty delays and feature cuts because Roberts was always way too ambitious for his own good.

There is plenty of reason to be concerned about Star Citizen given the massive scope of the project. Chris Roberts is riding the razorblade between madness and genius. Outcome undetermined but wish him luck. He's gonna need it.

Also, I agree with the sentiment that this game is losing focus. Most of the core audience wanted a modern Wing Commander or XWing. Not a FPS.
And also not a game where you have to micro-manage shit to death like taking care of ship insurance, hangar fees, taxes and all that crap that is going to take away from the actual piloting.

jdreyer wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 14:13:
That Aurora looks sweet.

The thing about free traders I always wondered about though is this: When you play a military style space sim, it makes sense that your ship is tricked out with weaps and stuff since you're in the military. But for trading ships, that never made sense to me. It's not like people today outfit their DC9s or Learjets with 0.50 cal MGs and Stingers.

True, but midair piracy hasn't really been a practical criminal enterprise. It helps to think in nautical terms. Age of Sail freighters and other ships who were definitely not a man-of-war still carried armaments. They weren't as heavily armed as a ship of the line or even a frigate, but they had enough firepower to discourage smaller raiders who didn't have the means to fight it out or the sense to withdraw. Larger pirate crews, on the other hand, could take the losses and still make out pretty well on the deal.

Creston wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 18:35:

Sleep wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 14:36:

Creston wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 13:41:
Up next: RTS gameplay, and at 25 million we make it into an RPG! Then, at 30 million, it'll become Angry Birds: Star Citizen!

They need to stop adding things to it. Few wing commander fans wanted FPS gameplay in this game, and just continuously adding features will only dilute the experience.

They took a vote on whether to stop adding things. Turns out 87% didnt agree with you.

Well, I hope that 87% will enjoy playing Call of Angry Wing Duty Effect...

Though if it turns out to be the most awesome Call of Angry Wing Duty Effect ever, I'll be very happy.

I don't think that's altogether fair considering Robert's past history with these sorts of games. I think it would be fair to say, if you liked Freespace and Wing Commander back in the day, this will be at the very least those games with frills, but I'm betting on it being in the spirit of those older games with so much more of their potential filled out. Based on the current dollars people are throwing at this I doubt I'm alone in that line of thought.

The only way I could see this truly going poorly is if it's a bug infested mess for a long time after release, but the modular design certainly makes that far more manageable.

I suspect a lot of folks are also not realizing/remembering that much of the main gameplay design work was already very well fleshed out and planned long before the kickstarter took off. The original plan was to go the traditional investor/publisher route which implies there was something fleshed out enough and realistic to show to investors.

Sleep wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 14:36:

Creston wrote on Oct 14, 2013, 13:41:
Up next: RTS gameplay, and at 25 million we make it into an RPG! Then, at 30 million, it'll become Angry Birds: Star Citizen!

They need to stop adding things to it. Few wing commander fans wanted FPS gameplay in this game, and just continuously adding features will only dilute the experience.

They took a vote on whether to stop adding things. Turns out 87% didnt agree with you.

Well, I hope that 87% will enjoy playing Call of Angry Wing Duty Effect...

Though if it turns out to be the most awesome Call of Angry Wing Duty Effect ever, I'll be very happy.

Not sure what the fuck all the negativity about this game is.

Game publishers don't want to make space simulations, so FUCK em, that's all I have to say about that. I will gladly crowd fund Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous, and buy X3, because fuck other publishers, I want Space Sims, not more bullshit, dumbed down mainstream games.

I also want top-down isometric games like Wasteland 2, so there's money to them too. Because FUCK Bethesda for ruining the Fallout games.