I completely agree that one-button takedowns are lame. But to me, the ease with which I can dispose of guards is completely irrelevant. If I'm fighting anyone, I've already failed. Whether or not the fight takes 5 seconds or 5 minutes doesn't matter because I'm already reloading my last save so I can avoid combat entirely.

But yeah, needing to get close to guards and aim your blackjack is definitely more satisfying than "Press A to takedown."

There's nothing to disagree on in your last comment. However, understand that where your challenge lies isn't where mine lies. Like I said, on some occasions the act of knocking someone down and hiding him without being spotted is harder than just ghosting past the guard. And to get back to my original point, it's those dynamics of knocking them out (surface, line of sight of other guards, accuracy of blackjack + approach etc etc) that made it properly challenging and fun to me. That aspect is partially being removed by the one-button take-down.

Like you, the feeling of failure is what I try to avoid. Failure would weigh heavier, however, if the alarmed guards can easily overpower you. If you can agree with that, we never truly disagreed.

Like you once said, horror games can't never be truly scary when you know you can fuck up any adversary. Stealth games, I argue, can never get tense (for lack of a better word atm) when you know getting caught means you can just slaughter them.

I guess the key difference is that horror requires the player to be scared, whereas stealth does not. To me, stealth is about perfectionism. Never being detected, never leaving any trace of your existence behind. You can choose to be a perfectionist. You can't choose to be scared. The risk of failing to meet my own requirements is what creates tension in stealth games. To me, being detected is a fail state, no different from dying.

One of the biggest nonsense people can utter in this community is the "yoi're playing it wrong" argument. Stealth, to me, doesn't mean BY DEFINITION 'ghosting'. To you maybe, and that's fine, but I enjoyed the earlier Thiefs knocking some guards with an annoying path-pattern out and quickly and properly hiding their bodies. I didn't systematically knock everyone out. To me, this was great fun and a good, balanced challenge, because it was often easier to ghost past than to knock-out and hide the body before others took notice. I loved it. Was I playing it wrong? Tell that to the guy who had the time of his life playing it exactly like that.

Okay, so you enjoy knocking guards out. You are now complaining that the new Thief makes it too easy to knock guards out. In 9/10 situations, knocking a guard out in Thief (or any stealth game) is easier than trying to evade them. When you knock out a guard, you are removing a threat and obstacle. That's one less pair of eyes to avoid while you do your business. If you're trying to grab all the loot in a room being patrolled by several guards, the easiest way to get the loot is to knock out all the guards first. Seriously, go back and play Thief and try to get through a level without incapacitating any guards. It's significantly harder than just knocking out guards whenever the opportunity arises. The AI doesn't notice the absence of other AI, nor do they have randomized patrol routes. There are always rooms where you can dump bodies without the risk of them being discovered. If challenge is your top priority, you shouldn't be knocking out guards at all. That's the entire reason why I ghost in the first place. I want a greater challenge.

If lack of challenge is your concern, then you shouldn't take the path of least resistance.

This comment was edited on Jun 16, 2013, 20:29.

Jerykk wrote on Jun 15, 2013, 16:45:
Games are all about choice. If you enjoy playing stealthy, why would you choose to play any other way? It doesn't make any sense. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you have to. We are never going to see pure stealth games again so you should at least be happy that we're seeing games that at least emphasize stealth and make it a viable way of playing. If you dislike a feature or mechanic that's completely optional, simply don't use it. Self-restraint is a wonderful thing and makes many things in life more enjoyable.

Like you once said, horror games can't never be truly scary when you know you can fuck up any adversary. Stealth games, I argue, can never get tense (for lack of a better word atm) when you know getting caught means you can just slaughter them.

BTW, surface does matter in this new game. As in the originals, different surfaces make different noises. It probably doesn't matter when you're performing a one-button takedown

Yada-yada. I know surfaces do matter, except during takedowns. Which was obviously my point, so I'm not sure why you're wasting breath to make it look it wasn't.

but again, if you're playing stealthy, you shouldn't be taking down anything. If you went around knocking out guards in Thief 1 or 2, you were playing it wrong. You should be complaining about how easy it was to incapacitate guards in those games and that they even made that possible.

One of the biggest nonsense people can utter in this community is the "yoi're playing it wrong" argument. Stealth, to me, doesn't mean BY DEFINITION 'ghosting'. To you maybe, and that's fine, but I enjoyed the earlier Thiefs knocking some guards with an annoying path-pattern out and quickly and properly hiding their bodies. I didn't systematically knock everyone out. To me, this was great fun and a good, balanced challenge, because it was often easier to ghost past than to knock-out and hide the body before others took notice. I loved it. Was I playing it wrong? Tell that to the guy who had the time of his life playing it exactly like that.

Games are all about choice. If you enjoy playing stealthy, why would you choose to play any other way? It doesn't make any sense. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you have to. We are never going to see pure stealth games again so you should at least be happy that we're seeing games that at least emphasize stealth and make it a viable way of playing. If you dislike a feature or mechanic that's completely optional, simply don't use it. Self-restraint is a wonderful thing and makes many things in life more enjoyable.

BTW, surface does matter in this new game. As in the originals, different surfaces make different noises. It probably doesn't matter when you're performing a one-button takedown but again, if you're playing stealthy, you shouldn't be taking down anything. If you went around knocking out guards in Thief 1 or 2, you were playing it wrong. You should be complaining about how easy it was to incapacitate guards in those games and that they even made that possible.

This comment was edited on Jun 15, 2013, 17:01.

The most disconcerting thing of all in this presentation is the knock-down-from-above with a single press of one button. Very, very worrying. In the old Thiefs, SO many things had to be taken under consideration before you actually let yourself drop to the surface and successfully knock out a guard. What is the surface? for example. Was it metal? Stone? You don't want to drop yourself down on a metal floor to knock out a guard but alarm the entire area in the process.

*sigh* The devil was in the details with the stealth in Thief. Hell, the devil was in the details in every game rooted in our nostalgia. I hate the simplicity of today's gaming.

Also, Jerykk, the "don't use the VAT system if you think it's imba" is still such an incredibly invalid argument. The mere fact that you CAN fuck the guards up takes the edge off the stealth.

Overon wrote on Jun 15, 2013, 11:24:

MajorD wrote on Jun 14, 2013, 20:39:

Overon wrote on Jun 14, 2013, 18:07:
This gameplay trailer showed us bad animations, terrible AI, ugly GUI, and blurry textures and Gerratt as nothing but a thug murderer. This game was not designed to appeal to people who liked the first 3 2 .

Even 3 was not as bad as what I saw in this one...

Agreed. I'm a big fan of T1 & T2, so Deadly Shadows was a let down for me, as it just didn't capture the same immersion for me that Looking Glass Studios was able to do. There were certain aspects of Deadly Shadows I liked, but overall it just didn't do it for me.

Hopefully we won't be disappointed with the final product.

MajorD wrote on Jun 14, 2013, 20:39:

Overon wrote on Jun 14, 2013, 18:07:
This gameplay trailer showed us bad animations, terrible AI, ugly GUI, and blurry textures and Gerratt as nothing but a thug murderer. This game was not designed to appeal to people who liked the first 3 2 .

Even 3 was not as bad as what I saw in this one...

NKD wrote on Jun 14, 2013, 18:21:

Overon wrote on Jun 14, 2013, 18:07:
This gameplay trailer showed us bad animations, terrible AI, ugly GUI, and blurry textures and Adam Jensen as nothing but a thug murderer. This game was not designed to appeal to people who liked the first Deus Ex.

Changed that around just for the sake of argument. Pretty much the exact same shit everyone said about DXHR.

Just saying people shouldn't give up all hope... YET.

Point taken. I hope I'm proven wrong of course.

Fantaz wrote on Jun 15, 2013, 06:25:

Ladron3dfx wrote on Jun 14, 2013, 22:08:
HEADSHOT! 40XP

Boom, headshot!

M-M-M-MONSTERKILL!

Ladron3dfx wrote on Jun 14, 2013, 22:08:
HEADSHOT! 40XP

Boom, headshot!

Jerykk wrote on Jun 14, 2013, 22:57:

I support Jerykk's entire post. I enjoyed the trailer, and despite the doom and gloom news reports about how the team/publisher/developers are in chaos regarding the game, I need to have hope. Maybe it's blind, but I want one more run in this universe.

If they don't revisit Shalebridge.....

Jerykk wrote on Jun 14, 2013, 22:57:
I must be the only one who thought the demo looked promising.

I didn't see anything objectionable that also seemed mandatory. I don't see why someone couldn't just sneak around and steal shit if thats how they wanted to play.

It's really going to come down to, as you said, AI improvements. That really makes a stealth game.

I must be the only one who thought the demo looked promising. Yes, the presenter decided to neutralize some guards but it was pretty obvious that it was a choice and not mandatory. Yes, focus mode is pretty OP but they explicitly state that it will be optional and can even be disabled if you lack self-restraint. The AI was the biggest area of concern, as it seemed a bit dumb but the game isn't coming out for a while so I'm hoping it will improve. The level design looked nice and open-ended and the visual style was very Thiefish. As for comparisons to Dishonored, yes, there are similarities. That's because Dishonored was very clearly inspired by Thief. If this game had no similarities to Dishonored, it wouldn't have any similarities to Thief either.

Easily the most annoying thing for me were the hand animations for interactions. I don't want to wait for animations to play out before I can collect loot or open doors. It was annoying in Crysis and I'm sure it will be even more annoying in Thief, given how much loot you'll be grabbing.

HEADSHOT! 40XP

I'm... not impressed with it.

Maybe it'll end up better than it is now, but right now this feels more like an old school Splinter Cell game than Thief.

The mechanical eye thing is way, way, way overdeveloped. And considering that it's compensation for defeating the trickster in the first Thief... Where the hell does it come from in this one?

Overon wrote on Jun 14, 2013, 18:07:
This gameplay trailer showed us bad animations, terrible AI, ugly GUI, and blurry textures and Gerratt as nothing but a thug murderer. This game was not designed to appeal to people who liked the first 3 2 .

There is a Gamespot interview/gameplay video as well that states THIS IS NOT A PREQUEL OR SEQUEL BUT AN ENTIRE REIMAGINING of the "franchise".

The video in the topic description doesn't really give a good impression, but I searched youtube for another and found a IGN video from E3 2013 showcasing gameplay, and it looked much better.

They do state that the game is still a work in progress, so the ugly UI and guard models (what the hell is wrong with their eyes?) will hopefully be fixed. The IGN video also clarifies what features can be turned off, which shows promise.

That the drop-knockout animations from a single button press is pretty lame, and it is MUCH too bright from Garret's perspective.

Apprehensively keeping an eye out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6qff2jFqm8
I made another Thief video!

NKD wrote on Jun 14, 2013, 18:21:
Just saying people shouldn't give up all hope... YET.

Fair enough, but you must agree that at this stage, it looks pretty balls