We realize that for some of you, releasing on Steam isn’t your first choice but there are a lot of really great things we get from this decision that allow us to focus on the game rather than on making things like backend servers to deploy and manage shared content. From the start, we’ve had to make practical decisions like this one to ensure we get the most out of the support you’ve given us. We consider this to be the best option for everyone.
Now, that may prompt the question, “What about DRM-free?” To honor our original promise of a DRM-free version of the game, the Harebrained Account Website will also contain a downloadable version of Shadowrun Returns that does not include Steam integration. While this version will include the Seattle story (and Berlin, via a one-time update), without Steam integration, it will be unable to browse and play community-created stories from within the game. Any future DLC will only be available through Steam.
None of the existing DRMs give this much freedom, and almost all require you to create an account and register a game without a possibility of removing it afterwards.
vrok wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 20:03:jacobvandy wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:26:This is wrong and you should feel bad.
Even back in the day, when you were passing around CDs that you "owned" to your buddies so that they could play the game when you weren't using them, THAT WAS PIRACY!
It might have applied to whatever corporate slave country you lived in at the time, or you might have been brainwashed after the fact to believe so, but it's not a universal truth.
InBlack wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 09:25:
Looking forward to this, one of the first bigger Kickstarters to be realeased.
jacobvandy wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:26:This is wrong and you should feel bad.
Even back in the day, when you were passing around CDs that you "owned" to your buddies so that they could play the game when you weren't using them, THAT WAS PIRACY!
jacobvandy wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:26:
Why would YOU, yourself, need that functionality? You wouldn't, not ever, because you can't be in two places at once playing two different games.
jacobvandy wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:26:noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 18:45:
Since when did playing different games on different PCs become piracy? What an incredibly stupid thing to say!
The only stupid thing here is you typing without thinking... You're saying you want to buy games on Steam (AKA license them for YOUR account) and then play each one on a different computer at the same time on the SAME account? Why would YOU, yourself, need that functionality? You wouldn't, not ever, because you can't be in two places at once playing two different games. You think OTHER PEOPLE should be allowed to play your games (which you do not own, you licensed them for your own personal use) just because you're not currently playing them. THAT is piracy, dude. Even back in the day, when you were passing around CDs that you "owned" to your buddies so that they could play the game when you weren't using them, THAT WAS PIRACY! Its your own deluded wishful thinking that classifies it otherwise. Your idea of a "highly desirable feature" is completely illegal by intellectual property law.
Conversation over, good day sir.
Redmask wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:05:
You can play and install games on multiple PCs with Steam, you just can't do it simultaneously. Origin doesn't let me run two copies of Battlefield 3 either. Most digital services are account based and while some let you run singleplayer executables, it's not really a supported feature if you read the TOS. I can load some games without using Origin but not others, some games work standalone without Steam but many require it and so on.
The market long ago voted on per game DRM and they don't like it. I'm sorry you disagree but the market has decided that account based services are the future and most people find Steams implementation fairly benign and acceptable.
noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 18:45:
Since when did playing different games on different PCs become piracy? What an incredibly stupid thing to say!
Even playing the same game on different PCs, which while against some EULAs, is still a highly desirable feature. So I won't fault Steam here, but I much appreciate other DRM schemes that don't actually apply these EULAs.
Creston wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 19:05:You know what, here's more to blow your mind..... SecuROM's implementation in Mirror's Edge, Crysis 1 or Burnout Paradise was the best and least user-offensive DRM scheme that I have ever seen. You could install games anywhere, with only install-time DRM server checks, de-register games, and have multiple simultaneous activations. If the purpose of DRM is to act as a deterrence for large scale misuse, while still allowing users to have a breathing room and flexibility, then it did succeed.
The only thing blowing my mind is how you champion a pathetic piece of shit DRM that would only allow you THREE INSTALLS MAXIMUM over Steam. You seem to have forgotten that that Securom DRM often came with a 3 install limit, forcing you to have to contact support and beg for more installations. It was patched out of a few games later on, but not all. Furthermore, if you ever had to reinstall your OS and never had the chance (or simply forgot) to uninstall game X first, that activation was gone.
Yeah, no, great system there. SO much better than Steam!
Verno wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 15:46:noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 15:22:
Steam is one of the worst DRM's around. It doesn't allow playing *different* games simultaneously from the same account, let alone running the same game on different PCs. The offline mode is still not fully functional, in the sense, that you often have to be online to go offline.
Nah you can launch multiple games at the same time I think, I remember doing it by accident once. You can't be logged into the same account at the same time from different locations for obvious reasons. Also the offline mode works fine now, they finally fixed it up a few patches ago. If you get unplugged there's a time out period then it asks you to go into offline mode, I use it all the time on the road.
The spawned copy concept of games has unfortunately died out too so I can't really fault them for not having that. Most of your points would need cooperation/permission from the industry as well.
noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 18:55:Creston wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 16:33:noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 15:22:
Even Origin, UPlay and Games for Window Live provide much fewer hassles.
Oooo...kay. Time to put the crack pipe down, buddy.
In the current implementation, all the DRM schemes I mentioned allow far more freedom in how you play and install games on multiple PCs, compared to Steam, strictly from DRM perspective.
You know what, here's more to blow your mind..... SecuROM's implementation in Mirror's Edge, Crysis 1 or Burnout Paradise was the best and least user-offensive DRM scheme that I have ever seen. You could install games anywhere, with only install-time DRM server checks, de-register games, and have multiple simultaneous activations. If the purpose of DRM is to act as a deterrence for large scale misuse, while still allowing users to have a breathing room and flexibility, then it did succeed.
noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 18:55:
In the current implementation, all the DRM schemes I mentioned allow far more freedom in how you play and install games on multiple PCs, compared to Steam, strictly from DRM perspective.
Julio wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 18:15:Flatline wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 17:59:
Where's the lie?
Their promise "A Digital Downloadable copy of the game, DRM free"
What they are delivering: "a downloadable version of Shadowrun Returns"..."unable to browse and play community-created stories from within the game"... "future DLC will only be available through Steam"
I don't see in their promise of a DRM free game that it will not have access to future DLC, and that it may or may not have access to community-created content. They also talk about a one-time update, so who knows if its going to get patched on an as needed basis. Maybe they should have added all the fine print when they planned their kickstarter. Or just told the full truth from the beginning.
Lots of Steam fanatics on Blue's, but Steam is still DRM.
Creston wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 16:55:Flatline wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 16:41:Oh, also, with 4th ed, it's way, way easier to *not* actually throw that stunball (which you're right is f*cking death), but to summon a force 14 spirit that throws Stunball 14 on your behalf. Oh, and that spirit basically has 14's for it's stats, so even if your sammy gets init, he's still f*cked. Joy!
And that's horseshit. Nothing in 2nd edition stopped you from trying to summon a Force 14 elemental. Except the fact that that Force Rating was likely higher than your Magic rating (and it's doubtful that you were a Force 8 Initiate), so the Drain becomes physical instead of stun, and you now have a 14D physical drain to try to whisk away with your willpower. Good luck?
How the fuck can you now summon that shit in 4th edition?Where earlier SR games were kind of a joyful mess, I have a particular dark spot in my heart for 4th ed. They did one thing very right (switch to static target numbers) and did everything else entirely wrong. Matrix rules are still a nightmare (the in-text introduction to basic hacking took, I shit you not, over 38 dice pool rolls in real life, for a 5 second hack), vehicle rules are borked to the point where riggers are barely existent, and magic/summoning is way overpowered.
Sounds great... New editions of PnP rpgs now all seem to be "let's just make shit completely nonsensical and flashy, so the bros will play it!"
Creston
As far as the uber-spirits, I'd have to look into it (I stopped playing 4th a while back), but it had something to do with a way that you'd resist drain at half the spirit force, so throwing a force 14 spirit was actually fairly soakable, and way better than throwing a single spell at anything near that strength.
The problem with the matrix rules in 4th is that... well... first the people who wrote the aren't good at math, so the dice mechanics break under moderate examination, and two, they didn't actually *think* of how a wireless full mesh matrix would actually function, so it's like 25% wifi for dummies and 75% Swordfish. So you're doing "cool" stuff like triangulating the signal of a commlink in order to hack it, but at the same time if you drop into VR/Hot Sim you just *see* what's going on, but you still have to... oh christ I give up. It just adds rolls on for no apparent reason. Plus, you can break the matrix rules with what one of the older developers called "the hall of mirrors", where you're allowed to run infinite agents on your commlink that explicitly take up no resources in order to create basically an impossible-to-breach defense because it's an infinite series of point-to-point links you have to go through before you can actually attack the commlink.
Part of the problem is that CGL fired almost all of their entire freelance staff about a year into 4th ed, after it turned out that they "accidentally co-mingled" (their term not mine) most of the company's money with their own and couldn't pay their bills. They have a couple decent freelancers now, but all of the old guard is gone, and the writing sucks for it. Freelancers have admitted, for example, that there is zero proofing. No spell checking, no editing, nothing other than basic typesetting.
Creston wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 16:33:noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 15:22:
Even Origin, UPlay and Games for Window Live provide much fewer hassles.
Oooo...kay. Time to put the crack pipe down, buddy.
jacobvandy wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 15:40:noman wrote on Apr 10, 2013, 15:22:
Steam is one of the worst DRM's around.
In your, apparently biased, opinion. Or you just live under a very large rock...It doesn't allow playing *different* games simultaneously from the same account,
Untrue, I just launched multiple games right now. Unless you mean playing different games on different PCs on the same account at the same time? That's called piracy, and it's an unreasonable request.[/quest]
Since when did playing different games on different PCs become piracy? What an incredibly stupid thing to say!
Even playing the same game on different PCs, which while against some EULAs, is still a highly desirable feature. So I won't fault Steam here, but I much appreciate other DRM schemes that don't actually apply these EULAs.