Parias wrote on Feb 27, 2013, 18:09:

Yosemite Sam wrote on Feb 27, 2013, 14:56:
Enjoying my first run thru this game... shouldn't have read some of these posts. Just quit the main game at the ship to do the missing link, disappointed about the DLC not integrating into the main game.

This annoyed me to no end as well and is a bit of a problem for all of the subsequent playthroughs I've done; I hate needing advance knowledge for what point in the game I need to actually save, bomb out, and load up a completely different executable in order to play the DLC within the right "timeline" in the plot... and then awkwardly switch back to the core came when finished.

Why couldn't they just integrate it into the main game?

I think because of the skill reset. They only give you so many points in the DLC, so if they integrated it, people would be left with fewer points than they had before the DLC bit started.

There are better ways around that, of course, but I guess they didn't feel like coming up with any.

Creston

NKD wrote on Feb 28, 2013, 02:58:

J wrote on Feb 27, 2013, 18:46:
In the original Deus Ex stealth was tricker. Even the prod had to be used on the lower spine otherwise it required two charges. Knocking out with a baton required melee upgrades and a hit to the head. Miss for whatever reason and follow through too slowly and you risk a lot of heat on you.

Eh, but the AI was so stupid that you had ample time to line up the right hit. Slight shadow and you were invisible, and they have like no peripheral vision.

"Slight shadow and you were invisible" is not strictly true. There were shades of shadow and the best way to see how concealed you truly were was to see how much light your gun reflected. I've been spotted when it was partially dark and walked past when it was completely dark. The amount of concealment you got from a shadow depended a lot on the angle you were facing and adjusting that could make a huge difference.

NKD wrote on Feb 28, 2013, 02:58:

J wrote on Feb 27, 2013, 18:46:
In the original Deus Ex stealth was tricker. Even the prod had to be used on the lower spine otherwise it required two charges. Knocking out with a baton required melee upgrades and a hit to the head. Miss for whatever reason and follow through too slowly and you risk a lot of heat on you.

Eh, but the AI was so stupid that you had ample time to line up the right hit. Slight shadow and you were invisible, and they have like no peripheral vision.

The AI in DX:HR was pretty stupid too. I actually tested it pretty extensively. When an NPC is in his idle state, his vision cone is like 90 degrees. You can literally stand right next to him and he won't see you. In addition, the vision cone is attached to the character's root and not his head, so he can actually look at you while you stand next to him and still not see you. Also, NPCs have no vertical awareness when it comes to sound detection. You can be standing on a shelf right next to an NPC, firing your guns repeatedly and he will never ever look up. They also have extremely short memories. They can see you run behind a box and as long as you remain hidden, they'll forget about you and leave.

AI was definitely not a strength of any of the DX games.

Anyway, in addition to AI, they need to address balancing as well. The XP system in DX:HR clearly rewarded certain playstyles over others. If you wanted max XP, you had to play as a stealthy, non-lethal hacker who knocks everyone out and hacks everything, even if he already knows the password or key combo. This is dumb. You shouldn't reward players XP for specific actions. Doing so leads to people doing things they otherwise wouldn't do. You should only reward players for completing missions and exploration, like in the original DX. This ensures that players play how they genuinely want to play.

This comment was edited on Feb 28, 2013, 03:12.

J wrote on Feb 27, 2013, 18:46:
In the original Deus Ex stealth was tricker. Even the prod had to be used on the lower spine otherwise it required two charges. Knocking out with a baton required melee upgrades and a hit to the head. Miss for whatever reason and follow through too slowly and you risk a lot of heat on you.

Eh, but the AI was so stupid that you had ample time to line up the right hit. Slight shadow and you were invisible, and they have like no peripheral vision.

That may also depend on your rank in melee.

J wrote on Feb 27, 2013, 18:46:
In the original Deus Ex stealth was tricker. Even the prod had to be used on the lower spine otherwise it required two charges. Knocking out with a baton required melee upgrades and a hit to the head. Miss for whatever reason and follow through too slowly and you risk a lot of heat on you.

Stealth in DX:HR, in my opinion, was easier and more rewarding.

I think the lower spine thing was only a necessity on the MJ12 troopers? I usually stun prodded to the head until then, I think.

In the original Deus Ex stealth was tricker. Even the prod had to be used on the lower spine otherwise it required two charges. Knocking out with a baton required melee upgrades and a hit to the head. Miss for whatever reason and follow through too slowly and you risk a lot of heat on you.

Stealth in DX:HR, in my opinion, was easier and more rewarding.

Yosemite Sam wrote on Feb 27, 2013, 14:56:
Enjoying my first run thru this game... shouldn't have read some of these posts. Just quit the main game at the ship to do the missing link, disappointed about the DLC not integrating into the main game.

This annoyed me to no end as well and is a bit of a problem for all of the subsequent playthroughs I've done; I hate needing advance knowledge for what point in the game I need to actually save, bomb out, and load up a completely different executable in order to play the DLC within the right "timeline" in the plot... and then awkwardly switch back to the core came when finished.

Why couldn't they just integrate it into the main game?

Cyanotetyphas wrote on Feb 27, 2013, 15:29:
Also just finished a playthrough recently. Very fun game.

Regarding Stealth-
I've seen this complaint before, that a game that gave you "real choice" would not reward stealth like DR does with XP and easiness. That argument fails to take into account the whole picture. Sure its easier to survive a stealthier entry if you do it correctly, since you pretty much just have to hit q, but you pay in time and patience.

I sort of did a hybrid approach (knowing that I probably wouldn't get to a second playthrough for awhile) where I would sneak around til someone found me and then blast the survivors. Well when the guns came out, I dropped everyone on the level in a matter of minutes. They all run to where you are, there is no respawning enemies, and if you're armed for it the cover system makes you very strong. Too many? Grenades. Hell if you walk away for 30 seconds they forget where you are and you can start over with headshots. You definitely have to be more careful with the shooting but it drastically cuts down on the time you spend in a level.

Regarding Missing Link-
It was weird that it didn't integrate. I think its pretty obvious it was an after thought, as there's 0 callback to it in the game proper.

That being said they did a great job with it. Interesting setting, touches on the best parts of DX with the prisoner exploitation, ties into the main game lore wise very well, and it was super cool to see the "components" in the final boss of the main game.

Edit-
Oh yeah and the Ending-
Well we all know the ending is Deus Ex 1, so they sort of are painted into a corner here. That being said, the approach they took was kind of lazy. If you haven't beaten it yet, time to tamper those expectations down. However everything up to that last second button press is excellent.

Ha. I did a stealth playthrough with the cover and press-this-to-do-cool-stuff buttons disabled. It was kinda tough at times.

Also just finished a playthrough recently. Very fun game.

Regarding Stealth-
I've seen this complaint before, that a game that gave you "real choice" would not reward stealth like DR does with XP and easiness. That argument fails to take into account the whole picture. Sure its easier to survive a stealthier entry if you do it correctly, since you pretty much just have to hit q, but you pay in time and patience.

I sort of did a hybrid approach (knowing that I probably wouldn't get to a second playthrough for awhile) where I would sneak around til someone found me and then blast the survivors. Well when the guns came out, I dropped everyone on the level in a matter of minutes. They all run to where you are, there is no respawning enemies, and if you're armed for it the cover system makes you very strong. Too many? Grenades. Hell if you walk away for 30 seconds they forget where you are and you can start over with headshots. You definitely have to be more careful with the shooting but it drastically cuts down on the time you spend in a level.

Regarding Missing Link-
It was weird that it didn't integrate. I think its pretty obvious it was an after thought, as there's 0 callback to it in the game proper.

That being said they did a great job with it. Interesting setting, touches on the best parts of DX with the prisoner exploitation, ties into the main game lore wise very well, and it was super cool to see the "components" in the final boss of the main game.

Edit-
Oh yeah and the Ending-
Well we all know the ending is Deus Ex 1, so they sort of are painted into a corner here. That being said, the approach they took was kind of lazy. If you haven't beaten it yet, time to tamper those expectations down. However everything up to that last second button press is excellent.

This comment was edited on Feb 27, 2013, 15:35.

Just quit the main game at the ship to do the missing link, disappointed about the DLC not integrating into the main game.

That was kind of an odd deal...

Enjoying my first run thru this game... shouldn't have read some of these posts. Just quit the main game at the ship to do the missing link, disappointed about the DLC not integrating into the main game.

Verno wrote on Feb 27, 2013, 12:42:
Yeah the ending was pretty stupid, bleep boop push button to pick your ending. Really pulls you right out of it when they make it so literal.

Whenever I play through, I just decide beforehand what ending I'm going for, then tailor my playthrough to fit that motto. That helps quite a bit, imo. (I do the same thing for ME3 now.)

Creston

My body is ready.

J wrote on Feb 27, 2013, 13:08:
My only gripe was that playing stealth seemed easier than playing shoot-em up.

I dunno, I liked that. We have plenty of shooters, and very few stealthers.

My only gripe was that playing stealth seemed easier than playing shoot-em up.

So I'm guessing this game will be about humans. Humans who are defying things.

Yeah the ending was pretty stupid, bleep boop push button to pick your ending. Really pulls you right out of it when they make it so literal.

The climax was a bigger cop-out than anything else. It was like they took the illusion of choice from the end of Deus Ex 1 and literally made it a few endings delivered on a table at the end of a hallway. Despite that bullshit the rest of the game was good and I'd recommend it.

it would be nice to see one that is less linear/open hybrid and more truly open world... drop the hubs, instanced missions, etc.