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1.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 09:19
nin
 
1.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 09:19
Jan 10, 2013, 09:19
 nin
 
The Daily Show Tackles Gun Violence And Video Games…


Second part of that clip is here. Both were excellent...

And congrats to Childs Play!

2.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 10:05
Verno
 
2.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 10:05
Jan 10, 2013, 10:05
 Verno
 
I tend to largely avoid [the BSN forums] these days, myself. Why? Because spending too much time there starts to make me feel negative—not just about the games we make, but about myself and life in general. That's not a good feeling to have. I'm sure there are folks there who would bristle at that comment, suggesting that all negative feedback is justifiable and that ignoring it is the equivalent of us sticking our heads in the sand. How will we ever improve unless we listen to their scolding and take our lumps like good little developers? That is, of course, ignoring the idea that we haven't already digested a mountain of feedback—both positive and negative—and there's really only so much of it you can take. Eventually you make decisions (informed by that feedback, though only in part- it can only ever be in part) and move on.

First of all, this clown lives on those forums so who is he kidding, everyone knows hes going to be there no matter what. He was a big part of ruining EAs marketing efforts for DA2 even, trumpeting ridiculous feature changes as revolutionary and trying to justify the shittier elements in the game. It's funny how when everyone was a sycophant tonguing his balls that he thought feedback was worthwhile but now that those people have turned into angry detractors it's time to move on with the "design" and ignore them.
Playing: Xenoblade Chronicles DE, Ys IX, God of War
Watching: Lupin, You me and the Apocalypse, Days of Thunder
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3.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 11:23
3.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 11:23
Jan 10, 2013, 11:23
 
Verno wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 10:05:
I tend to largely avoid [the BSN forums] these days, myself. Why? Because spending too much time there starts to make me feel negative—not just about the games we make, but about myself and life in general. That's not a good feeling to have. I'm sure there are folks there who would bristle at that comment, suggesting that all negative feedback is justifiable and that ignoring it is the equivalent of us sticking our heads in the sand. How will we ever improve unless we listen to their scolding and take our lumps like good little developers? That is, of course, ignoring the idea that we haven't already digested a mountain of feedback—both positive and negative—and there's really only so much of it you can take. Eventually you make decisions (informed by that feedback, though only in part- it can only ever be in part) and move on.

First of all, this clown lives on those forums so who is he kidding, everyone knows hes going to be there no matter what. He was a big part of ruining EAs marketing efforts for DA2 even, trumpeting ridiculous feature changes as revolutionary and trying to justify the shittier elements in the game. It's funny how when everyone was a sycophant tonguing his balls that he thought feedback was worthwhile but now that those people have turned into angry detractors it's time to move on with the "design" and ignore them.

He's not really been there anymore a lot, and I can kind of see what he's saying. It's gotta be tough when people slag your work, justified or not. (And I don't think the writing was really the problem with DA2. It wasn't stellar or anything, but also not what made the game kinda meh. There were some very well-written quests and NPCs in the game, and I actually really enjoyed the main Mages vs Templars storyline, plus the final reveal that (secret) it was the idol YOU found in the Deep Roads that caused Meredith to go insane.

On the flip side: "Yet the signal-to-noise ratio does seem to be worsening"

Well, you think maybe that has something to do with the quality of your games there, David? And that all of your colleagues continued to arrogantly insist that if someone didn't like DA2 (or ME3, for that matter), that it was a case of people "going in with wrong expectations?"

I KNEW what I was getting going into DA2, and yet I was still pretty disappointed at how little of it stands out, and how totally terrifyingly bland ALL the art work in it is. Is that wrong expectations too? Or is the game really not that great, and quite frankly a blemish on the Dragon Age name?

His point on the forums, however, is well taken. It's a cesspool. It never was a great haven of original debate, but it used to be you could at least get a decent discussion going every now and then. Now it's 50% people who are still so pissed off over the ME3 ending and how poor DA2 was (compared to Origins) that they keep slagging everything, and then there's the 50% fluffjob fanboys who keep slagging the other 50% and trying to pretend that no, really, DA2 was a better game than Origins.

The ME3 MP forum was a good place to be for awhile, until the dozen or so top players turned it into a "Everything must be exactly the same for BALANCE otherwise the game will die" wankfest.

Creston
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4.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 11:35
Verno
 
4.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 11:35
Jan 10, 2013, 11:35
 Verno
 
He's not really been there anymore a lot, and I can kind of see what he's saying. It's gotta be tough when people slag your work, justified or not. (And I don't think the writing was really the problem with DA2. It wasn't stellar or anything, but also not what made the game kinda meh. There were some very well-written quests and NPCs in the game, and I actually really enjoyed the main Mages vs Templars storyline, plus the final reveal that (secret) it was the idol YOU found in the Deep Roads that caused Meredith to go insane.

YMMV I guess but I didn't really care for the writing, I've done a few lengthy DA2 plot/quest teardowns in the past so I'm not going to rehash it all but the writing in the game was very problematic. Many plot elements were at odds with things established in the first game which felt jarring. The whole first act practically put me to sleep and characterization wasn't exactly impressive either. The framing story didn't really make much sense and the game felt like a disjointed series of short stories as opposed to a cohesive experience. The mix of Whedonesque dialogue with traditional RPG banter just didn't work that well for me, I wish they would just abandon this style altogether.

As for the BSN, it's always been a cesspool IMHO and as much as they want to ignore it, a lot of that is due to the pandering elements in their games and how they have approached feedback. When you pander too much you risk making folks really pissed when you fuck up, that's why many devs/pubs have a hands off approach for dealing with the public in general.

This comment was edited on Jan 10, 2013, 11:41.
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Watching: Lupin, You me and the Apocalypse, Days of Thunder
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5.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 11:45
nin
 
5.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 11:45
Jan 10, 2013, 11:45
 nin
 
On the flip side: "Yet the signal-to-noise ratio does seem to be worsening"

Well, you think maybe that has something to do with the quality of your games there, David?


Exactly. "Those folks are just too negative, I'm sure my work is fine. LA LA LA - not listening!"

And then he wonders why people can't stand him? Really????


6.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 12:00
6.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 12:00
Jan 10, 2013, 12:00
 
Verno wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 11:35:
YMMV I guess but I didn't really care for the writing, I've done a few lengthy DA2 plot/quest teardowns in the past so I'm not going to rehash it all but the writing in the game was very problematic. Many plot elements were at odds with things established in the first game which felt jarring. The whole first act practically put me to sleep and characterization wasn't exactly impressive either. The framing story didn't really make much sense and the game felt like a disjointed series of short stories as opposed to a cohesive experience. The mix of Whedonesque dialogue with traditional RPG banter just didn't work that well for me, I wish they would just abandon this style altogether.

I agree that the first act was terrible. All you're doing is getting money to go into the fucking deep roads, and then when you come out, you come out with less money than you actually paid to go in. What really pissed me off was that at the end of Act 1, a guy shows up who offers to loan you the money in return for a double cut.

WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T YOU SHOW UP AT THE START OF ACT 1, ASSHOLE?

But I liked some of the storylines in the second act. The Qunari were pretty cool, although their reason for being there seemed rather ridiculous (Seriously? A BOOK?), and I quite enjoyed the mage/templar plotlines.

I'm not up to date enough on the DA codex to be able to really judge the inconsistencies in the story, but the one thing that really irked me during the game was that the codex specifically says, on magic, that NO MAGIC CAN BE USED TO MOVE A PERSON FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER.

And then enemy mages teleport all over the fucking screen.

a lot of that is due to the pandering elements in their games and how they have approached feedback

Yeah, that's a very good point. I think in hindsight they might have wanted to handle it a bit differently from the beginning.

nin wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 11:45:
Exactly. "Those folks are just too negative, I'm sure my work is fine. LA LA LA - not listening!"

And then he wonders why people can't stand him? Really????

Yeah, it's not that difficult to see, David...


Creston
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7.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 12:25
7.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 12:25
Jan 10, 2013, 12:25
 
Dave, try listening to what people want instead of telling them what they want and you may actually learn something. And Bioware wonders why its a joke.
"You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life."
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8.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 15:09
8.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 15:09
Jan 10, 2013, 15:09
 
I did some research too..
Turns out cocaine is healthier than rat poison.
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9.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 15:20
9.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 15:20
Jan 10, 2013, 15:20
 
Cutter wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 12:25:
Dave, try listening to what people want instead of telling them what they want and you may actually learn something. And Bioware wonders why its a joke.

From what I've seen of Bioware's forums, it seems as though you'd likely go mad before you got a good idea of what the community wanted (and even then there's the question of whether or not it knows what wants at all, or if it's simply lying to you about what it wants).
10.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 15:22
10.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 15:22
Jan 10, 2013, 15:22
 
killer_roach wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 15:20:
Cutter wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 12:25:
Dave, try listening to what people want instead of telling them what they want and you may actually learn something. And Bioware wonders why its a joke.

From what I've seen of Bioware's forums, it seems as though you'd likely go mad before you got a good idea of what the community wanted (and even then there's the question of whether or not it knows what wants at all, or if it's simply lying to you about what it wants).

After a certain size community forums are useless. They tend to attract either yes-men or no-men. Or both. Rational points of view tend to be discouraged for "EVERYTHING SUCKS!" or "SHUT UP EVERYTHING IS AMAZING!"

There are much better ways to hear from your consumers. Anything large and identified solely by usernames is probably not the way to go.
11.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 15:53
11.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 15:53
Jan 10, 2013, 15:53
 
Beamer wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 15:22:
There are much better ways to hear from your consumers.
For example?

Anything large and identified solely by usernames is probably not the way to go.
Why not? Just needs more supervising. I was part of a team, managing customer forums of a commercial daytrader site, way larger than that of Biowares little joint. We had our share of attention whores and outright CRAZY bums, but you can manage those people. Its a full time job, the company has to invest, but in the long run you keep a healthy community AND happy customers.

But this is not possible with one or two underpaid community managers and admins picked from the user base. This is WORK. Most companies dont see the profit in that, so forums deteriorate at a certain point and become a useless waste of money.
12.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 16:15
12.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 16:15
Jan 10, 2013, 16:15
 
Verno wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 10:05:
I tend to largely avoid [the BSN forums] these days, myself. Why? Because spending too much time there starts to make me feel negative—not just about the games we make, but about myself and life in general. That's not a good feeling to have. I'm sure there are folks there who would bristle at that comment, suggesting that all negative feedback is justifiable and that ignoring it is the equivalent of us sticking our heads in the sand. How will we ever improve unless we listen to their scolding and take our lumps like good little developers? That is, of course, ignoring the idea that we haven't already digested a mountain of feedback—both positive and negative—and there's really only so much of it you can take. Eventually you make decisions (informed by that feedback, though only in part- it can only ever be in part) and move on.

First of all, this clown lives on those forums so who is he kidding, everyone knows hes going to be there no matter what. He was a big part of ruining EAs marketing efforts for DA2 even, trumpeting ridiculous feature changes as revolutionary and trying to justify the shittier elements in the game. It's funny how when everyone was a sycophant tonguing his balls that he thought feedback was worthwhile but now that those people have turned into angry detractors it's time to move on with the "design" and ignore them.

DA2 gets a lot of crap, but there are people out there for whom the game really clicks. Lara Crigger and Karla over at Gamers With Jobs did a podcast on it. Each of them has done 3 playthroughs or something.
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13.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 16:41
13.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 16:41
Jan 10, 2013, 16:41
 
Kajetan wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 15:53:
Beamer wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 15:22:
There are much better ways to hear from your consumers.
For example?

Talking to them, rather than going to a venue that's basically 100% anonymous people screaming loudly to be more heard than the next guy? Large developer forums tend to be complete herds. For some developers (Epic's is like this, for one you guys would disagree with) it's people falling all over each other to tell the dev everything is wonderful and nothing should be changed. For others, like BioWare, it's people falling over each other to make sure BioWare knows that they will all burn in hell.

The feedback is mostly worthless. It's exaggerated hyperbole. It's squeaky wheels that don't represent the audience as a whole.

Why not? Just needs more supervising. I was part of a team, managing customer forums of a commercial daytrader site, way larger than that of Biowares little joint. We had our share of attention whores and outright CRAZY bums, but you can manage those people. Its a full time job, the company has to invest, but in the long run you keep a healthy community AND happy customers.

But this is not possible with one or two underpaid community managers and admins picked from the user base. This is WORK. Most companies dont see the profit in that, so forums deteriorate at a certain point and become a useless waste of money.

I have no clue why you're saying this. Most game companies have one or several community managers. They do just that - manage the community. That has nothing to do with whether the dev team goes in and reads each thread to get feedback. Community managers foster the community, answer questions, etc. This is what developer forums tend to be used for. They aren't typically used for responding to "THIS GAME SUCKS!" or "YOU DID EVERYTHING PERFECTLY YOU ARE GODS DON'T NERF THE SHOTGUN TRICK I GO 100-0 WITH I WANT TO HAVE YOUR BABIES PLEASE HIRE ME!"
14.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 18:48
14.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 18:48
Jan 10, 2013, 18:48
 
I'm guessing he thinks DA2 was top notch too. We can call DA3 a failure now, if Bioware's not open to criticism and learning why they did a horrible job on DA2.

Time for a new lead writer if DA3 has any hope of succeeding.
15.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 18:59
15.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 18:59
Jan 10, 2013, 18:59
 
Julio wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 18:48:
I'm guessing he thinks DA2 was top notch too.

He did, yes.

We can call DA3 a failure now, if Bioware's not open to criticism and learning why they did a horrible job on DA2.

Hmmm, we'll see. They've released a few statements that seem to indicate they have taken the biggest criticisms of DA2 to heart. And hopefully the art work will improve with the bigger development time it'll have.

Time for a new lead writer if DA3 has any hope of succeeding.

In the end, Gaider isn't the guy who decides that there is an Awesome button in DA2, or that it needs Final Fantasy style swords and people who explode in clouds of blood, or that it's a great idea to just re-use the same dungeon over and over and over again. The guy who decides that is Mike Laidlaw. And he is returning in full fucking force for DA3, just as Hudson and that fucker Mac Walters are returning (rumored) for ME4...

Creston
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16.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 20:21
16.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 20:21
Jan 10, 2013, 20:21
 
Julio wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 18:48:
I'm guessing he thinks DA2 was top notch too. We can call DA3 a failure now, if Bioware's not open to criticism and learning why they did a horrible job on DA2.

Time for a new lead writer if DA3 has any hope of succeeding.

He still does think DA2 is top notch, he said so over and over before it shipped, even though all the long time actual CRPG fans, pretty much knew DA2 was going to be a disaster 6+ months before ship.

The only folks Gaider and Laidlaw wanted to listen to were the action rpg crowd that encouraged the less tactical combat with wave combat, and those who considered actual character customization that was a hallmark for past Bioware rpgs instead took to calling it "playing dress up" trying to be edgy.

And then when the game failed sales wise in comparison to Origins, they wondered wtf happened. Now he's disenchanted? Ohh poor little pretentious full of himself David Gaider. Boo fucking hoo.
17.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 20:53
17.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 20:53
Jan 10, 2013, 20:53
 
Wow...I don't know why, but I actually expected a bit better than this BS here.

To each and every one of you "He's an asshole who only wants to ignore criticism" types, you clearly have never read any of those forums as if they were addressed to you. It's a completely safe bet that reading shit like that for six months would send anyone into a meltdown. So if you actually like your career, you find ways to avoid that result. In no way are the cesspits of company gaming forums a useful source of critiques...but they're great ways to destroy a team, good or bad.
18.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 21:00
18.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 21:00
Jan 10, 2013, 21:00
 
Stormsinger wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 20:53:
Wow...I don't know why, but I actually expected a bit better than this BS here.

To each and every one of you "He's an asshole who only wants to ignore criticism" types, you clearly have never read any of those forums as if they were addressed to you. It's a completely safe bet that reading shit like that for six months would send anyone into a meltdown. So if you actually like your career, you find ways to avoid that result. In no way are the cesspits of company gaming forums a useful source of critiques...but they're great ways to destroy a team, good or bad.

You obviously haven't read much of Gaider's posts.
19.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 21:10
19.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 21:10
Jan 10, 2013, 21:10
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 21:00:
Stormsinger wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 20:53:
Wow...I don't know why, but I actually expected a bit better than this BS here.

To each and every one of you "He's an asshole who only wants to ignore criticism" types, you clearly have never read any of those forums as if they were addressed to you. It's a completely safe bet that reading shit like that for six months would send anyone into a meltdown. So if you actually like your career, you find ways to avoid that result. In no way are the cesspits of company gaming forums a useful source of critiques...but they're great ways to destroy a team, good or bad.

You obviously haven't read much of Gaider's posts.

Not one word of my post referenced anything he ever said or posted. How about you address my comment, rather than some figment of your imagination...
20.
 
Re: etc.
Jan 10, 2013, 22:10
20.
Re: etc. Jan 10, 2013, 22:10
Jan 10, 2013, 22:10
 
Stormsinger wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 21:10:
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 21:00:
Stormsinger wrote on Jan 10, 2013, 20:53:
Wow...I don't know why, but I actually expected a bit better than this BS here.

To each and every one of you "He's an asshole who only wants to ignore criticism" types, you clearly have never read any of those forums as if they were addressed to you. It's a completely safe bet that reading shit like that for six months would send anyone into a meltdown. So if you actually like your career, you find ways to avoid that result. In no way are the cesspits of company gaming forums a useful source of critiques...but they're great ways to destroy a team, good or bad.

You obviously haven't read much of Gaider's posts.

Not one word of my post referenced anything he ever said or posted. How about you address my comment, rather than some figment of your imagination...

He chooses to sit down and read the forums, no one is prying his eyeballs open and forcing him. He's a game writer, not a community rep. When you're dealing with the public you better have a thick skin. Your average McDonalds employee probably puts up with more shit in a year than David Gaider.

If he actually meant what he said he could have quietly stop posted instead of announcing it and declaring the reasons. When people were happy with the games he was fine to sit around and collect praise. Now that people are unhappy he's leaving, I don't know that seems pretty convenient.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!
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