There is this "small detail" that Microsoft is not advertising anywhere, but you can find it dug deep in the developer documentation:
One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!
I cannot even begin to stress out just how horrible this idea is! There is no side-loading, except for corporate use inside one company, and that works only on the enterprise edition of Windows 8. Do we all understand what that means? You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!
If it was just about "being downloaded from Windows store", it would not be a problem. It would be nice to have a common hub to download things from. But to get an app onto that store, it has to be certified by MS. This means bringing the "console experience" onto your desktop. Each app that you will get through the Windows Store will have to adhere to certain requirements imposed by MS. So far, we know that they've banned mature games, like Skyrim, CoD, and Serious Sam.[*] They have forbidden modding. They could very well forbid Open Source if they want. But even if these terms were not there, this is still a certification system. With all of its downsides, including uncertain release dates, rare and late patches, and everything turning out to be more expensive and sucking more.
While, theoretically, desktop applications are exempt from these requirements, it looks more and more like just a foot-in-the-door technique. A large number of developers have expressed their concern with possibility that, probably in Windows 9 or something like that, the ability to get even desktop apps in any other way than through Windows app store may very well be removed. When that happens it will be too late.
I would not invest into supporting the tiled UI apps (which MS now conveniently calls "Windows Store apps" - does that ring a bell?), until MS removes the requirement that they have to be shipped through Windows Store on desktop at least - and thereby remove the requirement of certifying them with MS. Certification is a broken concept and should be abolished.
Now, while in current state Windows 8 do look like they support plain desktop apps seamlessly, the removal of start menu and use of "charms" even on the desktop looks like a pretty blunt attempt to force users to "get used" to the tiled UI. It would be fine by me if it wasn't for the aforementioned certification issue.
So, it is a vicious circle. And not an accidental one. This one was carefully designed to be that way. I say: no thank you, I'll skip on that one.
* (Our footnote, not Alen's): He seems to have missed this story).
DDI wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 20:02:
So much crazy in here. Windows Desktop environment will not go away for a long time. Even Windows RT still has the desktop environment.
The new Start Menu is far faster to navigate than the old one, even with a mouse. There is a shit ton of data to back it up.
DDI wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 20:02:And so do you. They are supposed to be the same but aren't. Obviously you aren't reading much about actual dev experience with that.
DADES loves to spread the FUD. You can run the same exact certification tests before you submit the app so you aren't wasting time waiting for feedback. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694081.aspx
DDI wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 20:02:
So much crazy in here. Windows Desktop environment will not go away for a long time. Even Windows RT still has the desktop environment. The new Start Menu is far faster to navigate than the old one, even with a mouse. There is a shit ton of data to back it up.
DADES loves to spread the FUD. You can run the same exact certification tests before you submit the app so you aren't wasting time waiting for feedback. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694081.aspx The price for an individual to publish apps to the store (which you do not need to install your own apps) is $50 a year. Big fucking deal. If can't swing the $50 then make it a desktop app and get a real fucking job that gives lets you earn more than $50 a year. Apple is $100 year. Microsoft's 30% cut goes down to 20% once your app hits 25k of revenue, unlike Google or Apple where its 30% indefinitely.
I don't run Windows 8 and don't know if I will but I still think a lot of the hype from the likes of Croteam and Valve is based on pure speculation and not evidence.
wtf_man wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 19:19:Doombringer wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 19:10:
I'm seeing a lot of "gasp!" and "the sky is falling!" regarding Windows 8's "Metro" or RT apps...
I suppose it wouldn't be so shocking if Microsoft said "hey, it's like iOS. Get it?"
Because that's what it is. It's a walled garden. You can't install whatever you'd like on an iOS device, and yet, somehow Apple can't sell enough of them. People are eating them up. Did you think Microsoft *wasn't* going to want a piece of this?
IOS is not OSX.
Apple is not trying to put IOS on Macintosh Desktop computers.
What part of this are you not getting?
Sure, they have added some OPTIONAL IOS-like features to OSX (Mac app store, App launcher that looks like IOS launcher, and access to iCloud) But NONE of that is forced on you, like Metro is with Windows 8. OSX remains to be it's own Desktop OS.
deqer wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 18:52:
Looks like this could be the final push for people to start Linux.
DangerDog wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 19:29:
They're referring to "metro" apps which can only be acquired from the microsoft app store, WinRT is the lame version of Windows 8 that only runs on an ARM processor.
What, did you think MS was going to offer the app store and certification free
HorrorScope wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 19:29:What, did you think MS was going to offer the app store and certification free? LOL.Dades wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 14:36:
The big deal is that microsoft is forcing themselves into a 30% cut from game developers revenues.
I didn't know that. Is that from the link, if not do you have one?
Yes I can see any long time windows developer diving off steep places over this. That is an extremely huge game changer. As said, I'll go elsewhere and there will be a new rise in OS from somewhere (google) eventually, if they try it.
DG wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 18:05:Dades wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 14:36:what is the importance of these WinRT apps?DrSquick wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 14:31:
I don't get what all the hoopla is about, I only look at the start menu for a couple seconds; I dragged all my important apps to the left side, so I hit the windows key, and click the app I want, then the metro interface goes away. I'm guessing this is about people who want to make fullscreen metro games?
WinRT developed apps are what he was referring to. [...]
Dades wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 14:36:
The big deal is that microsoft is forcing themselves into a 30% cut from game developers revenues.
Doombringer wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 19:10:
I'm seeing a lot of "gasp!" and "the sky is falling!" regarding Windows 8's "Metro" or RT apps...
I suppose it wouldn't be so shocking if Microsoft said "hey, it's like iOS. Get it?"
Because that's what it is. It's a walled garden. You can't install whatever you'd like on an iOS device, and yet, somehow Apple can't sell enough of them. People are eating them up. Did you think Microsoft *wasn't* going to want a piece of this?
Dev wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 18:32:You misunderstand what I describe as a failure, and that will be their app store. The OS itself won't be, the store itself will be. I'll hazard a guess because apple is entrenched, but android is heavily eroding it with the whole "open concept" stuff.
No, it will not be viewed as a failure,
StingingVelvet wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 18:03:
If the fears end up being well-founded then 7 is my last OS for gaming and I keep my machine for legacy purposes. If the fears are as paranoid as I hope they are then I will upgrade when 9 comes out, skipping over 8 like most people skipped Vista.
deqer wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 18:52:
Looks like this could be the final push for people to start Linux.
Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 14:38:
Though MS is going to realize that this is a failure
ASeven wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 15:31:
Thank goodness all indications seem to show that Win8 is currently a sales disaster. The biggest share of clients of a new Windows, companies and corporations, don't want to touch it like PC gamers don't. There's simply no reason whatsoever to upgrade from Win7 or even WinXP, despite what MS fanbois might say.
HorrorScope wrote on Nov 17, 2012, 14:26:No, it will not be viewed as a failure, regardless of how many desktop users do or do not buy a retail copy, thats actually one of the smallest sales segments for windows (plus, I remember the biggest reason many people cited about upgrading to vista, it was because they were "tired" of the GUI and just wanted a new one, those people will still be buying win 8). I've gone over the many reasons before why overall sales of win 8 will still be good. You say you won't support it, but even that is likely wrong. Next time you buy a new computer, you will be paying a MS tax for win 8. Thats one way they will still get sales. Another way is that businesses buying a "windows" license will still be counted as a windows 8 sale (even if those businesses use windows xp or win 7).
We'll see, it's not like I'm buying Win 8 to support it anywho. So I've done my part I reckon, will that be enough?