Fion wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 20:13:

Axis wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 14:20:
I like GW2 but the longevity is not there as many will soon see.

I recommend you watch Wooden Potatoes video on End Game. Here, I'll even link it for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OMHzvtiIw0&feature=plcp

The idea that an MMOG should cater out repetitive content to keep people playing for as long as possible is simply yet another old MMOG trope (or.. brainwashing, I'd prefer to think), that just does not pertain to GW2.

The harsh reality is endgame in GW2 is nothing but repetition, lots and lots of it -- and primarily for rewards of "vanity" items.

Insane amount of dungeon tokens (dungeons are pretty lame, difficult but not creatively difficult), Insane amount of karma (billions of Pertinent Path runs), and Legendary crafting which is SO INSANELY GRIND GRIND I don't even wanna get started (200 skill points GO!). And pvp which pales in comparison to it's predecessor GW1 which is a fairly big deal to me as I've stated, but more importantly I find pvp and wvw bland and predictable. However MMO pvp isn't my idea of engaging skillful combat anyway (last one I truly enjoyed was daoc) - I prefer mine in FPSs like Quakelive, tribes, etc so I'm admittedly biased.

There are no "unique rewards", everything reward is quazi randomized via point pools and purchasable, and received by area completion or experimenting with the forge. Itemization is more rewarding than GW1, but fairly lackluster at the end of the day with a focus on graphical look over statistics.

I don't know many people who play MMO's for world completion, story etc. The last few MMOs that focused on that (SWTOR, Secret world) died pretty fast with similar arguments for the game. BUT, if people think they can find longevity with world completion and multiple characters doing it, story, etc... then they'll enjoy GW2 more than me.

It boils down to... If people like the game some will find plenty of reasons to keep playing. I like the game, but I feel I have to force myself to keep playing because it's become stale for my tastes, and much much sooner than I expected.

BobBob wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 19:42:
MMOs are the cigarettes of gaming. They are bad for your life and the 'second hand smoke' pollutes the industry.

Get out.

Trevellian wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 10:03:
Only 2 Million? I would have guessed far more considering how polished and not like other MMO's it is. I find it far more fun to run around and explore and do events in this than I ever have any other MMO. People need to stop playing WoW.

Jeez people, it hasn't even been 1 month yet! It took WoW over 6 months to reach 3.5 million.

Axis wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 14:20:
I like GW2 but the longevity is not there as many will soon see.

I recommend you watch Wooden Potatoes video on End Game. Here, I'll even link it for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OMHzvtiIw0&feature=plcp

The idea that an MMOG should cater out repetitive content to keep people playing for as long as possible is simply yet another old MMOG trope (or.. brainwashing, I'd prefer to think), that just does not pertain to GW2.

sauron wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 19:07:
Hard for the casual player to pick up how critically important buffs (haste) and debuffs (slow, paralyze) can be since they don't show up on the DPS spreadsheet.

GW2 seems to have the ability for at least some clases to switch modes on the fly, heal to support to dps (not sure about tank, more like bounce aggro around).

It's definitely possible to tank to some degree, I manage it pretty well with my guardian, and I've been experimenting with the aggro system. It does seem to lean towards three things: dps/heal (typical aggro), proximity (closeness to mob), and class (heavier classes attract more than lighter ones). Different mobs lean on these to a variety of degrees. The system seems biased towards being reactive rather than proactive, in the sense that a tank will be control-oriented, that is to say in my assumed role I need to get in the face of any mob not going after me and control the environment to protect allies when I cannot do that, since mobs also have short memories. In a way, that is half tank and half support, and healing/boons tie in nicely with that. I'd call it movement/action-oriented if anything.

In that sense, your FFXI experience matches up pretty well, it's a more advanced system than people give it credit for and is, in many ways, old school, rather than being novel. The novelty in GW2 seems to be its introduction in a more casual and learnable way. I don't want to be overly optimistic about this state of things, but it's possible that the game might encourage a new and larger generation of smarter and more cooperative players; time will tell. Last time I really felt that was in games like Ultima Online or, yeah, FFXI...

Jivaro wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 19:24:
To me, we are all a bunch of Swiss Army knives. The trick to the game is to use the right tool for the job. I think that is really part of the fun, and I am really glad I didn't spend a bunch of time in beta or watching gameplay videos because discovering that stuff is really making the leveling process a lot of fun.

I also notice people playing better at higher levels, it's certainly a requirement for tougher events and dungeons. There are a multitude of nuances for each profession that I think people are only slowing becoming aware of, which is true of most MMOs and games. "The right tool for the job" is an excellent way of putting it, as it's quite possible to get all slot skills unlocked and relatively general trait abilities (as you can switch the majors at will). I reiterate that I feel this process needs to be a little more transparent/facilitated, but it is there.

Jivaro wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 19:12:

1AngryGamer wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 17:27:
My God people do your own research on the fucking game. Quit asking stupid mundane questions watch a fucking developer video why dont you?

Never has a user name and a thread comment matched up more perfectly.

Maybe if his name was 1AngryAsshat...

Agent.X7 wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 13:26:

BobBob wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 12:25:
If you find yourself playing an MMO, you should probably being getting a job or working at your current job better.

I know you're a troll, but, what do you do for a living again? I have a good job that I (Mostly) enjoy. Besides, the owner likes me, and I'm in good with his family.

If you find yourself judging other peoples' game choices, you should probably get your own hobby.

MMOs are the cigarettes of gaming. They are bad for your life and the 'second hand smoke' pollutes the industry.

As I level higher, I notice that the massive event battles have less and less chaos. I would imagine that is because the people have learned how to better play their class. I know I have. Also, you have more toys to play with as you level, which increases the diversity in approaches.

That is the other thing..I notice far more people actually switching weapons mid-fight as I level up. Again, a sign that people are starting to learn their class. From 10-15 I don't see a lot of that, from 20 on up I see a lot of it, particularly within the rangers and guardians.

To me, we are all a bunch of Swiss Army knives. The trick to the game is to use the right tool for the job. I think that is really part of the fun, and I am really glad I didn't spend a bunch of time in beta or watching gameplay videos because discovering that stuff is really making the leveling process a lot of fun.

1AngryGamer wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 17:27:
My God people do your own research on the fucking game. Quit asking stupid mundane questions watch a fucking developer video why dont you?

Never has a user name and a thread comment matched up more perfectly.

NewMaxx wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 18:55:
Your concerns are therefore quite valid and not unknown to the MMO designer. I think GW2 handles this pretty maturely and in an efficient manner. It still needs work - switching needs to be more intuitive and quicker - but again, it's a step in the right direction. I too remember when support was crucial in MMO's, and I miss those days, but I also realize it needs to be natural and casual-friendly in our modern gaming environment.

Yep, agree entirely. I played support in FFXI for a really long time, and the role was central to the success of the group. Hard for the casual player to pick up how critically important buffs (haste) and debuffs (slow, paralyze) can be since they don't show up on the DPS spreadsheet.

GW2 seems to have the ability for at least some clases to switch modes on the fly, heal to support to dps (not sure about tank, more like bounce aggro around). Will be interesting to see how the playerbase develops that once the initial hubbub dies down.

By the way, lots of good posts in this thread - one of the best I've read in quite some time. Very thoughtful ideas from lots of folks.

NewMaxx wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 18:55:
I see it as a sort of synergy whereby all professions are technically in a support role.

Every one is a paladin. But what may happen is you still build the most tanky paladin possible, dps paladin possible and healing paladin possible and there is your GW2 trinity. That will only be needed if enough content is small group related and difficult.

PropheT wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 17:12:
It also does something to restore a lost art in MMO gaming with the support class. I -lurve- support classes, ...

I don't know how I feel about "the trinity" being gone. I think it generalizes classes a bit more than I like, honestly. ...

There's still a lot of people who are trying to force the tank/healer role onto their characters in GW2 with mixed success at best.

I see it as a sort of synergy whereby all professions are technically in a support role. The problems you mention exist in all games with significant hybrids, including WoW to some extent (although I played Vanilla only). The thing is, people WANT to be hybrids, they want their paladins to do DPS, they want their priests to do DPS, and they also want them to fulfill their core roles. The ability to quickly differentiate between these with skill and weapon switching is very important, so what you end up with is a compromise or balance of options.

Your concerns are therefore quite valid and not unknown to the MMO designer. I think GW2 handles this pretty maturely and in an efficient manner. It still needs work - switching needs to be more intuitive and quicker - but again, it's a step in the right direction. I too remember when support was crucial in MMO's, and I miss those days, but I also realize it needs to be natural and casual-friendly in our modern gaming environment. You need to get and maintain a player base, firstly, and adjust the system to their needs while retaining your overall vision.

HorrorScope wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 18:04:

Creston wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 11:31:
What the FUCK is up with these retarded battles in this personal storyline??????

Cause the game was a bit rushed and isn't really polished in terms of great balance.

Yeah, that's pretty obvious once you get into the higher zones. The starter zones ooze charm, they have overall storylines in them, dynamic events that range across the zone and are linked to one another, hearts that reinforce the story of the zone.

Once you get to the higher level zones, you get repeats of hearts (such as the Skritt suddenly having their equivalent of Meatoberfest), lots of stuff that doesn't work, and dynamic events that really aren't dynamic (you have to talk to some dude to start it) and are self-contained.

Kind of a shame, really...

Creston

PropheT wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 18:13:
I think there are two types of MMO players. Those that like the WoW types, those that like GW2 types, and those that like both types.

I agree, although I tend to see Guild Wars 2 as a MMO/ARPG hybrid, and even the MMO part is hybrid between subscription and free MMOs. In otherwords, it's a convergent game, it overlaps many different types of genres and thus has mass appeal, but there are players who happen to match that overlap more perfectly and thus find it to be the ideal game. I personally see it as forward-looking in that regard, but I can see how many people might not take to it.

However I do think any PC gamer should have it in their collection even if it's just a relatively short play. Those who are entrenched in their MMOs, for example EVE fans, are not the target audience. Trying to replace a niche experience or even a nuanced one with a general experiment will never work for the discerning gamer. You need to be a bit open and relaxed to fully enjoy something different. That's nothing against the player who knows what he likes; indeed, rather it supports them. Just don't try to shoehorn a title like Guild Wars 2 into your expectations.

minus 1, i did not care for this game at all, and my copy is up for sale

Quinn wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 11:02:
I'm not going to flame GW2 anymore. I've spend a fair amount of time doing that already in an earlier topic. What I have come to realize is that, quite simply, at this moment there are 2 types of MMO players: Those that like the WoW types and those that like the GW2 types.

I think there are two types of MMO players. Those that like the WoW types, those that like GW2 types, and those that like both types.

O_o

I didn't like GW2 at first but have been playing the crap out of it the last week or so. I hated WoW at first, too, and wound up playing it for years. I like most of the MMO's that have come out in some way or another, honestly, from GW1 to Warhammer.

The two games aren't disparate, it's not like we're talking Second Life to Guild Wars here. There's bound to be considerable overlap in player base among fantasy MMORPG's of any kind.

PropheT wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 17:12:
But it does allow for another breed of class that was disappearing when the focus was just on DPS with the big 3, since it's not just about the two core characters in a group making it so the DPS were maximizing their spreadsheets...it's everyone doing something important and beneficial for everyone else.

Or it should be, anyway. There's still a lot of people who are trying to force the tank/healer role onto their characters in GW2 with mixed success at best.

Yeah, I've been playing a thief and the class is super fun, but I'm not sure how much support beyond blinds, stealths and leeches it really brings to the table. Complicated. Hard to get it out of glass cannon spike damage mode for a starting player.

Gonna switch over to an Elementalist for a while. For a player in the early stages of the game, the ways to switch roles are more obvious. Water attunement = healing, stone = group defense, air = damage and debuff, fire = OMGBBQ.

Creston wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 11:31:
What the FUCK is up with these retarded battles in this personal storyline??????

Cause the game was a bit rushed and isn't really polished in terms of great balance.

Quinn wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 11:02:

Instead, GW2 made a few palls of mine and myself go back to WoW instead.

I'm not going to flame GW2 anymore. I've spend a fair amount of time doing that already in an earlier topic. What I have come to realize is that, quite simply, at this moment there are 2 types of MMO players: Those that like the WoW types and those that like the GW2 types.

Now, all WoW clones suck and fail miserably and GW2 is basically one of a kind (to me, in all its shortcomings) thus we come at a conclusion that there are WoW lovers and GW2 lovers. It's much like PC & Mac.

I cannot apprehend why one would chose GW2's style over WoW's, because to me "strength in sinergy" is better than "strength in numbers (and chaos?)" by definition. Here I'm of course referring to the holy trinity in WoW and lack thereof in GW2. In the week I tried GW2, I ended up prefering solo play over the visual mess that comes with the big "dynamic events". But one does not really play MMO's for its lukewarm singleplayer experience...

That's that for my little pathetic attempt to analyze the WoW vs GW thing. Sorry for again critisizing GW2 in the process. Couldn't help it.

I think you are right, GW2 is different enough that the venn diagram of WoW type and GW2 players is going to have some overlap but also quite a bit of separation. What you fail to see I think is that the GW2 model is still in it's infancy, while the trinity has been developed upon for a very long time, both by developers and players. This non-trinity is a new experimental thing by the devs - it may not be as synergistic as they intended. It's also new from the players perspective - most of them are going to just dps or approach events the same way they approach the single player content. We haven't yet learned HOW to play together in the best fashion.

After a few more months we may see players working together in a more calculated manor. Similarly, if a few more games take GW2 lead, we may see the model refined. To me it's refreshing to see someone at least try to carve out a little more design space in how group content can work.