Axis wrote on Sep 14, 2012, 09:57:
I already mentioned it was pretty fun lobbing trebuchet loads on people, but go ahead and disregard what I wrote sometimes it's the only way people can fool themselves into believing something they want to.

The game suffers from "looks good on paper", and the realities are a shimmer of what you expect it to be. I too had similar expectations of DAOC for rvr, but you know what... it doesn't play or feel anything like it. Looks good on paper, so statistically it should but it doesn't, not by a long shot.

In GW1 there was Guild vs Guild, 4 vs 4, Hero Arenas, Hero Ascent, Codex Arena, structured PVP , Lux vs Kurz fort aspenwood, joint missions, and there were thousands of ways to build your character. Real builds, meaningful builds. Builds endgame building was integral and highly enjoyable in GW1, and damn near limitless all for taking those builds to the many pvp outlets. GW2 is a joke comparatively that's not even up for argument. Where you would quest and work on builds for endgame pvp in GW1, you grind points for looks in GW2.

I've already been accused of "rushing" and have played all endgame extensively pve and pvp. I "L2P" quicker than most, I'm fine with that. And there will be people who enjoy what I do not when they get to where I've been in the game -- part of life.

I think you're overstating it but I do agree with your general premise, at least in part. I find the GW2 skill system a sad, pale shadow of what GW had. And it did make the PvP (along with everything else) more interesting IMO.

Eccentric wrote on Sep 14, 2012, 07:49:
That's, what, $100+ million in sales?

Anyone know any figures on what this means in terms of development and running costs? Is that enough to break even and the rest is profit, or nowhere near it yet?

Quite a few people have bought the more expensive Limited Edition. On the flipside, every copy they sell through a third party loses money since said party takes their cut.

However, I do think a LOT of people are buying gems with money, and that's obviously 100% pure profit for them. I bought 20 bucks worth of gems, really solely and alone because I felt they deserved the extra cash based on the amount of fun I've had with their game. I needed to upgrade my bank, so rather than trade in in-game gold for gems, I just paid 20 bucks.

I would imagine they're right around breaking even. The game was in development for 5+ years, and obviously they're running massive chunks of infrastructure, so it's cost a pretty penny too.

Creston

Dades wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 22:47:
Who needs things like story, pvp, unique events or world completion? Obviously what this game needs is hundreds of identical daily quests and 100 armor sets to collect until the next content patch resets player progress to zero.

And Raids! Because having to redo dungeons in GW2 is boring, but running the same fucking Raid in WoW is obviously the HEIGHT of MMO fun!

Grinding for a legendary? BAH! Grinding for a set item? MUSTDOMOREOFITNOWNOWNOW!!!!!

:-yawn-:

People, if you like WoW better, go back to playing that. Nobody's gonna blame you for it. And don't worry, GW2 won't threaten your precious little $180 a year money sink for exactly zero content given.

There are also people that enjoy GW2. Is that okay? Or does everyone in the entire world need to like shit exactly the same way you do?

Creston

Jivaro wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 19:24:
That is the other thing..I notice far more people actually switching weapons mid-fight as I level up. Again, a sign that people are starting to learn their class. From 10-15 I don't see a lot of that, from 20 on up I see a lot of it, particularly within the rangers and guardians.

I didn't understand at first why that was on a delay timer (first time is instantaneous, so is the second, but then it goes on a 30? second cooldown.)

Then I got a dagger which gives 2 stacks of Might every time you switch to it in combat. Okay, I see it now.

Still, I'd rather they just put that on a "can only trigger once every 30 seconds" rotation and let everyone switch weapons as often as they want to. I can pull off some REALLY awesome combos (unofficial ones) with dagger/pistol - pistol/dagger, but the weapon switch cooldown timer gets in the way after just one such instance...

Creston

Eccentric wrote on Sep 14, 2012, 07:49:
That's, what, $100+ million in sales?

Anyone know any figures on what this means in terms of development and running costs? Is that enough to break even and the rest is profit, or nowhere near it yet?

You're going to have to wait until Michael Pachter pulls some random numbers out of his ass before you get an answer I think.

sauron wrote on Sep 14, 2012, 10:07:
My two characters are only level 14 and level 4 so far, so running out of content won't be a problem for months. But I did notice a good article by the devs on endgame today:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

They also mention they're working on a lot of new events for that section of the game:

The launch of Guild Wars 2 is just the start. With the game now out in the hands of the players, we can focus our efforts to adding new types of events, new dungeons, new bosses, new rewards, and new places for players to explore. Together, our journey is just now beginning, and I hope to see you in-game.

Could be just BS, but it'll be interesting to see what they come up with.

Considering how much content they continuously added to the first game I doubt it is BS. Even if it comes in the form of 6 month expansion packs. I'll still enjoy it.

My two characters are only level 14 and level 4 so far, so running out of content won't be a problem for months. But I did notice a good article by the devs on endgame today:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

They also mention they're working on a lot of new events for that section of the game:

The launch of Guild Wars 2 is just the start. With the game now out in the hands of the players, we can focus our efforts to adding new types of events, new dungeons, new bosses, new rewards, and new places for players to explore. Together, our journey is just now beginning, and I hope to see you in-game.

Could be just BS, but it'll be interesting to see what they come up with.

As far as I recall there were only 2 classes in GW1. Monk and Necro, combined with whatever other class of your choice, usually Warrior. So much diversity. You're right, the possibilities were limitless. This of course was my experience with PVP in the game. Almost every single person was Monk or Necro/Whatever and never died. It was not "fun".

Trevellian wrote on Sep 14, 2012, 08:05:

Axis wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 22:12:

Fion wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 20:13:

Axis wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 14:20:
I like GW2 but the longevity is not there as many will soon see.

I recommend you watch Wooden Potatoes video on End Game. Here, I'll even link it for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OMHzvtiIw0&feature=plcp

The idea that an MMOG should cater out repetitive content to keep people playing for as long as possible is simply yet another old MMOG trope (or.. brainwashing, I'd prefer to think), that just does not pertain to GW2.

And pvp which pales in comparison to it's predecessor GW1 which is a fairly big deal to me as I've stated, but more importantly I find pvp and wvw bland and predictable. However MMO pvp isn't my idea of engaging skillful combat anyway (last one I truly enjoyed was daoc) - I prefer mine in FPSs like Quakelive, tribes, etc so I'm admittedly biased

This is where I call BS on your entire post. Because if you had actually participated in WvWvW you would have instantly recognized it as DAOC (Which is apparently the last PVP you enjoyed). It is exactly... RvRvR. There is no difference, not one bit of difference, they took every single aspect of DAOC's PVP and put it in their WvWvW. Keeps, Towers, Destructable Doors and Walls with the use of Siege Weapons, huge gank squads running between held keeps to insure keeping the area clear. Hell ANET even ADDED to DAOC's formula with the use of Camps to aquire Supplies rather than just being able to buy supplies at a vendor and make whatever siege weapons you want, you actually have to make sure your camps are held so that supply trains can deliver supplies to the front lines and OTHER people have to help you build siege equipment with the supplies they are carrying. Perhaps your server just sucks at WvWvW, I don't know. I am on Shadow's Furnace which was the unofficial DAOC players server on MMO Champion. So there are days when we own 95% of the map depending on the servers we are placed against.

If you're not going to bother even playing an aspect of a game before commenting on it, it pretty much negates anything else you have to say as far as I'm concerned.

I already mentioned it was pretty fun lobbing trebuchet loads on people, but go ahead and disregard what I wrote sometimes it's the only way people can fool themselves into believing something they want to.

The game suffers from "looks good on paper", and the realities are a shimmer of what you expect it to be. I too had similar expectations of DAOC for rvr, but you know what... it doesn't play or feel anything like it. Looks good on paper, so statistically it should but it doesn't, not by a long shot.

In GW1 there was Guild vs Guild, 4 vs 4, Hero Arenas, Hero Ascent, Codex Arena, structured PVP , Lux vs Kurz fort aspenwood, joint missions, and there were thousands of ways to build your character. Real builds, meaningful builds. Builds endgame building was integral and highly enjoyable in GW1, and damn near limitless all for taking those builds to the many pvp outlets. GW2 is a joke comparatively that's not even up for argument. Where you would quest and work on builds for endgame pvp in GW1, you grind points for looks in GW2.

I've already been accused of "rushing" and have played all endgame extensively pve and pvp. I "L2P" quicker than most, I'm fine with that. And there will be people who enjoy what I do not when they get to where I've been in the game -- part of life.

The PvP is fine, there is something there for everyone. sPvP, tPvP and WvWvW are all fantastic.

which class do you like the least?

I really don't care for the Engineer. It has way too much utility to the point that it's overwhelming and I don't like the kits being pure weapon replacements instead of augmentations. They should have made it like the thief where the kit changed your 4 and 5 skills instead of everything. They look fun as hell in WvW but I can't bring myself to level one.

Axis wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 22:12:

Fion wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 20:13:

Axis wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 14:20:
I like GW2 but the longevity is not there as many will soon see.

I recommend you watch Wooden Potatoes video on End Game. Here, I'll even link it for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OMHzvtiIw0&feature=plcp

The idea that an MMOG should cater out repetitive content to keep people playing for as long as possible is simply yet another old MMOG trope (or.. brainwashing, I'd prefer to think), that just does not pertain to GW2.

And pvp which pales in comparison to it's predecessor GW1 which is a fairly big deal to me as I've stated, but more importantly I find pvp and wvw bland and predictable. However MMO pvp isn't my idea of engaging skillful combat anyway (last one I truly enjoyed was daoc) - I prefer mine in FPSs like Quakelive, tribes, etc so I'm admittedly biased

This is where I call BS on your entire post. Because if you had actually participated in WvWvW you would have instantly recognized it as DAOC (Which is apparently the last PVP you enjoyed). It is exactly... RvRvR. There is no difference, not one bit of difference, they took every single aspect of DAOC's PVP and put it in their WvWvW. Keeps, Towers, Destructable Doors and Walls with the use of Siege Weapons, huge gank squads running between held keeps to insure keeping the area clear. Hell ANET even ADDED to DAOC's formula with the use of Camps to aquire Supplies rather than just being able to buy supplies at a vendor and make whatever siege weapons you want, you actually have to make sure your camps are held so that supply trains can deliver supplies to the front lines and OTHER people have to help you build siege equipment with the supplies they are carrying. Perhaps your server just sucks at WvWvW, I don't know. I am on Shadow's Furnace which was the unofficial DAOC players server on MMO Champion. So there are days when we own 95% of the map depending on the servers we are placed against.

If you're not going to bother even playing an aspect of a game before commenting on it, it pretty much negates anything else you have to say as far as I'm concerned.

That's, what, $100+ million in sales?

Anyone know any figures on what this means in terms of development and running costs? Is that enough to break even and the rest is profit, or nowhere near it yet?

Holy wall of shit spam, so people who like the game, what's your least favorite class and why?

I can't get into the Ranger. Pets seem weak and I didn't like the weapon skills at all, seems like they should have Rifle.

NewMaxx wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 16:53:

Verno wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 11:18:
It's all about skill and self-sufficiency. Holy trinity creates a ludicrous inter-dependency and quite frankly has been done to death, there was room for innovation here and they achieved it.

You are on the right track, but you don't take this thought far enough. The problem with the traditional Trinity is that it inevitably ends up relying on DPS over the other two. I'm not talking any one specific boss or instance, I'm talking on the whole. You end up with things like timers, boss rage mode, etc., that clearly illustrate this fact. Yet people still embrace it as if it were the best and only way to do things, when in reality it should have been abandoned the very second it was no longer a true "trinity."

It was much less noticeable in the MMO's of old, where you had either dedicated and professional players, raids of 40 people, or different mechanics entirely. What you have in its place is a stale and modern standard that ultimately is casual in its reliance. That's why DPS is the king of the Trinity now - people like to do damage more than they like to heal or tank. It's just more flashy, and easier to level. So this is very much a symptom of underlying issues in the entire paradigm.

The mold needs to be broken. ...

I highly disagree with your unmatched misrepresentation of the holy trinity. It's cool not to like it, but to make nonsensical statements about it is something else entirely.

The way you put it, the holy trinity has always been about DPS. It's like you're playing some weird... vague red herring game here. The whole idea of the holy trinity has always been about the tank keeping the aggro of most if not all mobs, the healer keeping the players up and the DPS trying to get the boss+mobs down as quickly as possibly.

The synergy in this is that...:

1. if the DPS don't do their job right, the healer gets out of mana, the tank dies --> the rest dies;
2. if the Tank doesn't do his job --> everyone dies;
3. if the healer doesn't do his job --> everyone dies.

The other people agreeing with NewMaxx, too, didn't honestly and critically question his misrepresenting.. well, nonsense.

The beauty of that system is not only that it works if the players know what they're doing (GRANTED: WoW has become too mainstream and easy ALMOST to a point most noobs can tank -- healing can still be a challenge for them) but ALSO the solid, almost unavoidable interaction between the players -- which is what one would seek in an MMO? -- because:

1. If you're a good, anticipating tank, you often get compliments;
2. If you're a good healer who manages to keep an entire team alive when everything goes to shit, you often get compliments;
3. If you're a good DPS class, and you manage to do allot of damage and/or crowd-control when necessary so that the tank and healer can handle the stress, you often get compliments.

There is tons of positive feedback in WoW even to this day. People still connect with eachother. Every day. Always. And I honestly and wholeheartedly believe it is because of the trinity.


A little disclaimer here: I'm not saying GW2 "should have had!!" a holy trinity -- I would've wanted it but tough shit for me. This comment was merely to correct the bullshit meter of NewMaxx and some of the people who blindly agreed with him.

This comment was edited on Sep 14, 2012, 07:25.

PropheT wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 18:13:

Quinn wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 11:02:
I'm not going to flame GW2 anymore. I've spend a fair amount of time doing that already in an earlier topic. What I have come to realize is that, quite simply, at this moment there are 2 types of MMO players: Those that like the WoW types and those that like the GW2 types.

I think there are two types of MMO players. Those that like the WoW types, those that like GW2 types, and those that like both types.

O_o

I didn't like GW2 at first but have been playing the crap out of it the last week or so. I hated WoW at first, too, and wound up playing it for years. I like most of the MMO's that have come out in some way or another, honestly, from GW1 to Warhammer.

The two games aren't disparate, it's not like we're talking Second Life to Guild Wars here. There's bound to be considerable overlap in player base among fantasy MMORPG's of any kind.

That's why I think my PC & Mac analogy was fair in that it acknowledges exactly that. Adding that third party to my analysis felt unnecessary and would've only slowed my and the reader's momentum in getting to my point.

coolkev99 wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 20:48:
Jeez people, it hasn't even been 1 month yet! It took WoW over 6 months to reach 3.5 million.

Yet Diablo III sold over 3 million copies in < 24h.

Axis wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 22:12:
The harsh reality is endgame in GW2 is nothing but repetition, lots and lots of it

My end game will not be that, it will be on to the next game. Zero grind.

Endgame for me in GW2 is perfect. Time to log off and play something else (like the stuff in the steam summer sale I haven't touched yet).

Get to level cap and tell me that wasn't worth the admission fee and I'll punch you in the face for lying.

sauron wrote on Sep 13, 2012, 11:40:

I love the phrasing on that - I think at least half of the DPS guys I knew in FFXI would fail that test. So many dopes.

I think in terms of IQ it was support>tank>healer>>>>>>>>>>>DPS.

Oh that's just stupid. My wow main was a hunter which is where my heart lay but I also had a pally who both tanked and healed raids when necessary. The healer was ridiculously simple - almost whack-a-mole style, and VERY boring. Tanking again - a lot of raid fights bring in bosses which wipe aggro forcing the raid to use two tanks simply because the job is so damn easy.

For me DPS always offered the most flexibility and challenge - and being ranged helped with being able to view the situation (how many melee raid officers have you met - they are all ranged dps or healers).

Who needs things like story, pvp, unique events or world completion? Obviously what this game needs is hundreds of identical daily quests and 100 armor sets to collect until the next content patch resets player progress to zero.