SXO wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 14:07:

Graham wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 13:16:

deqer wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 11:56:
I was going to pick this up, but ever since they released that childish cinematic last week, I fear I would be picking up a game for 5yearolds--I'm not a 5yearold.

You sound like a rational person with reasonable opinions.

Protip: Being worried about you own personal, private hobbies appearing childish shows that you still have some growing up to do.

Zing!

Not really. Deqer wasn't concerned about his appearance, he simply didn't want a game that (to him) looked to be designed for 5 year olds. So the protip "advice" was off the mark and really just came across douchey.

I'm doing a couple of 4 packs, folks interested can hit me up here or at SA through the PM system. Seeya in game!

Alamar wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 11:22:

nin wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 11:10:
Woot! And only $20! Played the hell out of the last one, and I'm sure I'll do the same here!

Yes, $19.99 is definitely a sweet spot for a game like Torchlight. I was dumbfounded at the amount of game and content it offered (though much of it was randomly repetitive.) The mood, the music, the play--reminded me so much of Diablo 2 and was why I liked it so much. It has almost a mesmeric quality about it.

This is a great example of how piracy generates revenue; many many people who pirate a product will buy a sequel. Which incidentally, is also why Windows is THE operating system of choice : )

-Alamar

The psychology of piracy is interesting. But to boil it down, if you offer general consumers a product which they find highly enjoyable or very appealing or very useful, and you price it right from the start, most people will buy it as opposed to pirating it. Same thing exactly is true of books and movies and music. That's why Microsoft and movie companies and the book publishers are not only "still in business" but *thriving.* If more people were pirating than not this would not be the case.

The problem for software, book, and movie publishers is when they release a poor or sub-par product and *expect* it to sell as if was a AAA title! That's never going to happen, and the publishers are idiots if they think it should. Products that aren't compelling and which are also priced as high as other very compelling products won't sell nearly as well as they might had they been priced right from the start. IE, a poor game, a poor book, or a poor song or a poor movie should be priced anywhere from 1/4 to 1/3 the price of an AAA title. At that point, even the sub-par stuff will move briskly.

But publishing cartels like the RIAA and the MPAA stupidly keep complaining that their bad stuff isn't selling as well as their good stuff and so they keep complaining about "piracy" to a Congress largely so technically non-adept most of them would have a problem listing in ten words or less the differences between a ram chip and a mouse.

People buy good software when it is priced competitively from the start, in a measure commensurate with its worth. But when the RIAA & MPAA companies keep trying to push poor-quality products on the public for the same prices as the good stuff--it isn't going to sell nearly as well no matter what they do. Whether the poor quality products they throw out into the market are pirated or simply ignored, the result is the same: far few people buy them.

Although I agree with you that it is likely that Microsoft's OSes are among the most pirated pieces of software in history, it's still a fact that Microsoft is the financial success it is because most people--yes, most people--buy Windows as opposed to pirating it (at least, this is true in North America and Europe. Probably not so much in China.) They buy it because they think that for the price it is an excellent buy for what it does!

A good example by which to prove that observation is desktop Linux distributions. Windows outsells them on the desktop 100-to-1 even though the Linux desktop is essentially *free* and has been for years. That's fairly dramatic proof that billions of people around the world find desktop Windows so much more valuable than desktop Linux for their personal computing needs that they gladly pay to own Windows and choose it over a desktop Linux distro which they could get for free if they so desired! You don't have to pirate desktop Linux to get it for free because it already is!

That's an incredibly strong and clear statement about what companies need to do in order to minimize the effect of piracy on their bottom lines: make products that are compelling enough that people will see their value and be glad--happy, ecstatic, even!--to buy them at reasonable prices! Piracy will never be 100% eliminated, but a company can darn sure knock out at least 90% of it if their customer-value-for-the-dollar strategies are sound and their products are compelling enough to inspire strong demands. Smart companies don't fight piracy with a pack of ambulance-chasing attorneys suing and threatening their customers--that's a dead end strategy if ever there was one. Smart companies *overcome* piracy by offering fantastic value to their customers and fantastically useful&desirable products. Microsoft has been doing that, on balance, for most of its existence--and that's why the company is still here, let alone why it has become dominant in many areas.

Graham wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 13:16:

deqer wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 11:56:
I was going to pick this up, but ever since they released that childish cinematic last week, I fear I would be picking up a game for 5yearolds--I'm not a 5yearold.

You sound like a rational person with reasonable opinions.

Protip: Being worried about you own personal, private hobbies appearing childish shows that you still have some growing up to do.

Sounds reasonable. I wonder how you'd relish a public revelation of your private Voodoo-Barbie doll collection, replete with long pins stuck through intestines and thoraxes, though...;) Seriously, he wasn't worrying about appearances, he was simply making a statement that in his opinion, based on the intro cinematics, the game looks childish. If it turns out that the intro to the game bears no resemblance to the game itself, he might very well purchase the game. I feel the same way. That intro, for me, was so childish it was very nearly insulting.

It closely reminds me of the way Asus used to package its $300 3d accelerators sold in the US: the cover invariably had a picture of what had to be an 8-year-old male, one thumb very nearly in his mouth, the other balled into a sort of fist and clutching some sort of purple plastic dinosaur, a hairdo that looked like he'd stuck a finger into a light socket--and a set of huge, wide-open eyes that looked as if they saw everything and understood nothing. It was plain to whom Asus was marketing that $300 3d card--and it *wasn't* to the US adults who could afford to buy the thing. Asus might as well have blared with a megaphone: "We have no idea why anyone would want to actually buy a 3d card in the US, but they buy lots of them, and all we can figure out is that the child on the front of this box best represents the demographics for our 3d accelerators in the US."

I don't know if Asus is still making product boxes like that, and I think Asus makes great products, but if I had to guess about that based on nothing more than the design of the box I'd guess it was a pile of junk...;) Impressions, especially first impressions, are extremely important in marketing.

Yep I'll be grabbing it, most likely tomorrow night.

Krovven wrote on Apr 27, 2012, 01:16:
Haha, what happened to "cutting back"? Junkie

Count me in, was going to msg you in Steam, but at work, and my squad doesn't connect to my home rig. If you have 3 others, I will grab another 4 pack with some friends.

Haha, what happened to "cutting back"? Junkie

Doing a 4pack unless Krovven is still doing one. Any interest?

yeppers.. i'll be nabbing this bad boy as soon as it drops!
Lots of good fun playing #1

Alamar wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 11:22:
I won't likely pre-order it, unless it's in the last few days, but it made me wonder... Why would you pre-order Torchlight 2 if you didn't thoroughly enjoy #1... Thereby making the copy of the first useless (minus the whole steam gifting part)...

And then I remembered the letter r... Or more accurately... Arrrrr... Pirates ; )

This is a great example of how piracy generates revenue; many many people who pirate a product will buy a sequel. Which incidentally, is also why Windows is THE operating system of choice : )

-Alamar

I don't know about that. Based off of the people I know, and have known, they were just as likely to pirate a sequel as they were the first game, especially if they liked it.
As for offering the first game free as part of a preorder, not sure why they're doing it either. If you pirated the first game, you don't really need a copy of it, and if you bought a copy, you don't need one either. As for gifting, everyone I know who wanted it bought it, or had it gifted already, so unless you're gifting it to someone for a gifted game in return . . .

I want Torchlight to have more of an endgame. After playing through the entire dungeon a couple times there was just nothing keeping me there, no min/maxing, no awesome loot. But the biggest thing was that it was boooorrriinnnggg playing it all by oneself.

Game had some epic music, though.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOBeJzkS9to

Links broken, strange.

jacobvandy wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 19:34:
Wasn't the point of Torchlight always that it was a modern Diablo-clone? Did everyone here miss that? Not sure what you were expecting from a budget-priced indie... I enjoyed it plenty for what it was, and I'll definitely be picking up the sequel. Not sure how much I'll play co-op, but the new outdoor environments and expanded random-generation aspect sound good. Plus the standard PC features that Diablo III is blatantly omitting, as were just mentioned.

Perhaps it was the cutsey art-style but it just lacked the character that Diablo 1/2 had. It just felt repetitious real fast which I never felt with Diablo - with the exception of the Jungle map in D2. That thing was just painful to get through.

Wasn't the point of Torchlight always that it was a modern Diablo-clone? Did everyone here miss that? Not sure what you were expecting from a budget-priced indie... I enjoyed it plenty for what it was, and I'll definitely be picking up the sequel. Not sure how much I'll play co-op, but the new outdoor environments and expanded random-generation aspect sound good. Plus the standard PC features that Diablo III is blatantly omitting, as were just mentioned.

I would agree that the original Torchlight was lacking in a few areas, but the fact that it was able to be modded, and had a pretty good community, was something that to me set it apart from other similar games. Particularly at that price point. It is that kind accessibility and flexibility that makes the PC my platform of choice and I like it when developers take advantage of those possibilities.

I mean, what is the point of making a PC game if you take all the things that make PC gaming great and throw them out the window? I am not trying to start a rant war, if you all dig D3...by all means...go for it. I had fun with my time in the beta as well. I am just saying that I game on a PC for a lot reasons, and if you give me a choice between polished, super-budget, AAA title that could just as easily be on XBOX/PS3 and the smaller quality indie title that still supports things like LAN and mods...I am going to take the indie title every single time.

Torchlight just felt generic to me, but I understand that it was Runic's attempt to get something out fast so that they could build a full featured, robust, game with Torchlight II. The art style turns me off a bit, but I'll probably give it a shot once it goes on sale.

Slashman wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 15:49:
I tried the first Torchlight on a friend's system when I was repairing it and I really just couldn't see what all the fuss was about.

It didn't do anything significantly better than Titan Quest IMO. And it lacked a lot of the character building and interesting skill trees than TQ had.

The setting was generic and it just plain reminded me of Fate. I played through several levels just to see if I was missing something significant and realized that I wasn't

I do like the fact that these guys(a small indie company) are making stuff that sells, I just don't get what was so great about it.

The lack of co-op wasn't a problem for me...the game not being very interesting was the problem.

The cutesy pets and the fishing just seemed like distractions from the fact that its a generic, dungeon-crawling hack&slash game. Not particularly challenging or interesting story-wise.

Torchlight 2 may very well be a better game, but I'm definitely going to wait and see before I buy it. So a pre-order is out of the question.

Isn't Torchlight basically Fate + Mythos?

I tried the first Torchlight on a friend's system when I was repairing it and I really just couldn't see what all the fuss was about.

It didn't do anything significantly better than Titan Quest IMO. And it lacked a lot of the character building and interesting skill trees than TQ had.

The setting was generic and it just plain reminded me of Fate. I played through several levels just to see if I was missing something significant and realized that I wasn't

I do like the fact that these guys(a small indie company) are making stuff that sells, I just don't get what was so great about it.

The lack of co-op wasn't a problem for me...the game not being very interesting was the problem.

The cutesy pets and the fishing just seemed like distractions from the fact that its a generic, dungeon-crawling hack&slash game. Not particularly challenging or interesting story-wise.

Torchlight 2 may very well be a better game, but I'm definitely going to wait and see before I buy it. So a pre-order is out of the question.

Graham wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 13:16:

deqer wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 11:56:
I was going to pick this up, but ever since they released that childish cinematic last week, I fear I would be picking up a game for 5yearolds--I'm not a 5yearold.

You sound like a rational person with reasonable opinions.

Protip: Being worried about you own personal, private hobbies appearing childish shows that you still have some growing up to do.

Protip: Using the cliche (meme?) Protip line shows you still have some growing up to do : )

Or at least, I would feel that way if I wanted to judge other people's opinions ; )

deqer wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 15:00:

Graham wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 13:16:
Protip: Being worried about you own personal, private hobbies appearing childish shows that you still have some growing up to do.

Protip: Be cautious about something you're deciding to make a hobby, because it could suddenly stab you in the back; when it's too late; because you already paid, or you already spent more time than you wanted to.

Am I going to enjoy a game that has a childish atmosphere to it? Childish cinematics, childish voice acting, and childish stories/quests? Probably not.

Someone is going to have to do convince me. Tell me I'm wrong. Someone who's played the beta.

You would have to define how you think something is childish for someone else, with a different definition, to be able to convince you otherwise...

I don't think TL or TL2 look childish at all... Cartoonish, yes, but cartoons were always made for parents, so who knows what you could mean : )

DangerDog wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 15:34:
Too bad they couldn't have gotten this out a few months before D3 hit.

Indeed... They would certainly have gotten more full price sales... But those that enjoyed the first, will buy the second (on a Steam sale when they take a break from D3).

-Alamar

This comment was edited on Apr 26, 2012, 15:41.

Too bad they couldn't have gotten this out a few months before D3 hit.

Hudson wrote on Apr 26, 2012, 11:55:
Didnt like the first one, wont like the second one

I feel the same. Unless they've changed things signifigantly. First one wasn't bad, just sort of meh.