Beamer wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:59:
For clarification, he's not saying piracy doomed Bulletstorm 2

That's not what this thread's title is saying.

nin wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 16:05:

If your game is "Good", piracy won't be an issue.

I don't know about that...

I said piracy won't be an issue because the game will still sell well in conjunction with the inevitable piracy that happens with most pc games.

The general rule is, make a great game and it will sell.

Kajetan wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 18:04:

Kosumo wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:30:
Piracy is real,

Nobody denies it.

it does have a econmic effect on many industries.

Prove it. Show us numbers. It's an economic effect. It should be easy.

Oh, wait. The United States Government Accountability Office couldnt find any reasonable, clear numbers:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10423.pdf

Good luck!

Start with this if you like - OECD Piracy Link

I also have read a report into the cost of illeagly steaming of live sports events of which I worked on and the cost to the company I was working for - put at around $23,000NZD for that one event. This was a private report so I cant share it with you.

The event still made plenty of plenty of money, but the company is more worried about more and more people "free riding" and therefore over time making these event uneconomic.

*free riding - http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_3.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

Another clueless developer not realizing his game just sucks and no one wanted it on the PC in the first place.. I had trouble paying $5 for it on sale. Was a ripoff for that. Hopefully he will go develop console full time where he belongs, in a kindergarten class of game designers.

Here's a clue idiots.. No one wants CONSOLE ports.

All evidence is pointing towards that being the case. It's not just EA, Epic, Ubi or other big corps but also indies like Jeff Vogel (Spiderweb) or CD Project have expressed their dissatisfaction with rampant piracy.

Actually, there are quite a few indie developers that have been happy to have their products pirated because it gave them a great deal more exposure than they would have ever had without it.

But that's not really the point. No one is expecting that the "big corps" would be happy with piracy. But claiming that it's a "huge problem" with no evidence to back that up is just an unsubstantiated claim. Companies love to use piracy as a scapegoat for a poor selling product, overlooking the fact that good selling products have at least as much, generally more, piracy. Skyrim is still selling like the proverbial hotcakes despite the fact it's been widely available on torrents since it came out.

So when a developer says "our product didn't do well", "we did a poor PC port" and then "our product didn't do well because of piracy", there's a pretty clear disconnect there. Their product didn't do well because they couldn't convince people it was worth the price they were charging. Either because the price was too high, or the quality was too low (or a combination thereof). That is what they need to fix if they want to sell games.

One of the most interesting stories to come out about piracy has been the latest HADOPI report. Sure piracy was down but then it was known entertainment revenue was also down. These are hard numbers that can't be denied or bullshited and spun into something it is not.

To me this does speak that piracy isn't so black and white as many here paint it to be and it's effects aren't that clear cut. After all all we hear from the entertainment business, including the publishers, is that without piracy sales would increase and now these hard numbers prove otherwise.

This only shows on clear thing, piracy is extremely complex and not as clear cut as many wished it would be. If anything piracy is perhaps the most complex socio-economical phenomena happening in modern times and perhaps one of the rare ones to have almost no unbiased studies dedicated to it due to the extreme complexity of its nature.

CJ_Parker wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:23:
Well, why don't you set a good example and start providing facts, hard numbers and data on why piracy is NOT a problem first?

Where are your numbers and facts?

See. You can't either.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10423.pdf
http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-may-boost-sales-111102/
http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf
Pirates Are The Music Industry’s Most Valuable Customers
Game Changing Study Puts Piracy in Perspective

There are some reports and documents as a start, hinting that non-commercial content piracy is not as bad as being told by the industry for decades.

Where are yours?

AnointedSword wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 18:03:
.Do not come on here and try to BS...I am sick of seeing people say stuff without any facts or proof backing up their words.

That can be said about 99% of YOUR posts. Need facts. Get a pen and paper and click on your post history.

Kosumo wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:30:
Piracy is real,

Nobody denies it.

it does have a econmic effect on many industries.

Prove it. Show us numbers. It's an economic effect. It should be easy.

Oh, wait. The United States Government Accountability Office couldnt find any reasonable, clear numbers:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10423.pdf

Good luck!

"Yup, if you look at most pirates they're probably spending more on games than an average gamer, anyway."

Really? Where do you get these numbers? I can say Obama is making all the right decisions, but that means spit if you cannot back it up. I used to warez, I used to courier for one of the top couriering groups out there. I had access to some of the top sites that got the stuff right from the crackers. We paid for nothing and so does 99% of the leechers or they wouldn't waste their time...Do not come on here and try to BS...I am sick of seeing people saying stuff without any facts or proof backing up their words.

Dev wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:49:

Beamer wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:35:
I seriously don't get denying that piracy costs sales.

xXBatmanXx wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:38:
A pirated game != a lost sale.

These two statements are NOT the same thing. There's a difference between saying "ZOMG EVERY PIRATED GAME COPY IS A LOST SALE", and "there's at least one lost sale from piracy"

I agree (and I'd guess many others do too) that while there's some number of lost sales from piracy, many of the pirates would never have bought the game anyway.

Here is the reality.

$60.00 shitty game ruined it's sales.

When people won't even buy the game on Steam for $5.00 - there is a problem.

I played it, it is a $20.00 game retail TOPS.
NOTHING about the game says it is a full retail top of the line game. NOTHING.

Draugr wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:57:

xXBatmanXx wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:38:
You can pirate skyrim, but it is the #1 game on Steam since it came out. Make a great game and you have great sales.

Piracy is a red herring for shitty games.

A pirated game != a lost sale.

Exactly, Bulletstorm had poor performance across the board, If PC piracy was really such an issue, then they would just forgo a PC version and stick with the consoles, but they know the sales won't pan out so they won't.
Bulletstorm doomed Bulletstorm 2, not piracy. That won't stop them from pretending it was a great game and it was all the pirates fault, as it easier to attract investors by saying the fault lies with an aspect out of your control.

For clarification, he's not saying piracy doomed Bulletstorm 2, he's saying that selling under EAs expectations did. He's saying that piracy hurt PC sales.

He is not saying hurt PC sales doomed Bulletstorm 2. Not even implying that. Every single person knows that if it did well on the console it would have had a sequel, even if it was console only.

It's nice that he's also blaming the port (which I didn't know was as terrible as some here say), but would be nice if he took the bulk of the responsibility and said piracy contributed, rather than the other way around.

xXBatmanXx wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:38:
You can pirate skyrim, but it is the #1 game on Steam since it came out. Make a great game and you have great sales.

Piracy is a red herring for shitty games.

Exactly, in this instace, Bulletstorm had poor performance across the board, If PC piracy was really such an issue, then they would just forgo a PC version and stick with the consoles, but they know the sales won't pan out so they won't.
Bulletstorm doomed Bulletstorm 2, not piracy. That won't stop them from pretending it was a great game and it was all the pirates fault, as it easier to attract investors by saying the fault lies with an aspect out of your control.

Dev wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:49:

Beamer wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:35:
I seriously don't get denying that piracy costs sales.

xXBatmanXx wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:38:
A pirated game != a lost sale.

These two statements are NOT the same thing. There's a difference between saying "ZOMG EVERY PIRATED GAME COPY IS A LOST SALE", and "there's at least one lost sale from piracy"

I agree (and I'd guess many others do too) that while there's some number of lost sales from piracy, many of the pirates would never have bought the game anyway.

Yup, if you look at most pirates they're probably spending more on games than an average gamer, anyway. I highly doubt they're amongst the highest spenders, as there are people that play just as many games but pay for them all, but they're probably above average.

Those that are not above average are probably still spending as much as they can afford to game and just choosing to pirate rather than to buy at a $5 Steam sale 12-18 months after release, so while the revenues lost from them are frustrating it isn't like they're a $60 lost sale.
Of course, those that eventually buy what they pirated likely also buy at that price point.

xXBatmanXx wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:38:

Beamer wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:35:

Kosumo wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:30:
Or Al Lowe (of Lesure Suit Larry) saying how back in the day they sold more hint books than copies of that game.

Why do you need a hint book if your a pirate just having a look but you anit gonna play it any real amount of time?

Piracy is real, it does have a econmic effect on many industries.

To think otherwise is being nievie (shocking spelling sorry)

I seriously don't get denying that piracy costs sales.
Some people here are really, really adamant about always being right. I don't mean on this board, I mean they'll never admit that something they do is harmful and has adverse effects on things they love.

That said, it should just be accepted by the industry by now. I do not mean it should be allowed, but it should be built into every single sales projection and every single budget model. Your game will be pirated. Fact. Deal with it.
I'd wager most people DO take this into account but still mention it regularly to remind people that pirating isn't something that can be ignored.


Cue: "stop being a shill, I'm ignoring you, nothing potential consumers do is ever bad, the customer is always right."
I'm sure there's more I should respond to here and will when I have time.

You can pirate skyrim, but it is the #1 game on Steam since it came out. Make a great game and you have great sales.

Piracy is a red herring for shitty games.

A pirated game != a lost sale.

Agreed, though I wouldn't say for "shitty" games so much as "unwanted" games. Not quite the same.

Also a pirated game != a portion of a lost sale. It isn't a 1:1 ratio. It may not be a 10:1 ratio. But there is some kind of ratio there.

But, like I said, it's also something people should expect. Figuring out how many pirated copies equate to one lost sale is difficult or impossible. Figuring out how many pirated copies to expect per 100,000 sales is not hard.
Also, I don't even know why that matters. Games people want will sell. Games people do not want will not sell. Games people want will be pirated. Games people do not want will not be pirated. Pirated copies mean more to games on the verge of breaking even than to games that sell a billion copies, but both are likely pirated the same amount proportionate to sales.

Beamer wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:35:
I seriously don't get denying that piracy costs sales.

xXBatmanXx wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:38:
A pirated game != a lost sale.

These two statements are NOT the same thing. There's a difference between saying "ZOMG EVERY PIRATED GAME COPY IS A LOST SALE", and "there's at least one lost sale from piracy"

I agree (and I'd guess many others do too) that while there's some number of lost sales from piracy, many of the pirates would never have bought the game anyway.

Beamer wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:35:

Kosumo wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:30:
Or Al Lowe (of Lesure Suit Larry) saying how back in the day they sold more hint books than copies of that game.

Why do you need a hint book if your a pirate just having a look but you anit gonna play it any real amount of time?

Piracy is real, it does have a econmic effect on many industries.

To think otherwise is being nievie (shocking spelling sorry)

I seriously don't get denying that piracy costs sales.
Some people here are really, really adamant about always being right. I don't mean on this board, I mean they'll never admit that something they do is harmful and has adverse effects on things they love.

That said, it should just be accepted by the industry by now. I do not mean it should be allowed, but it should be built into every single sales projection and every single budget model. Your game will be pirated. Fact. Deal with it.
I'd wager most people DO take this into account but still mention it regularly to remind people that pirating isn't something that can be ignored.


Cue: "stop being a shill, I'm ignoring you, nothing potential consumers do is ever bad, the customer is always right."
I'm sure there's more I should respond to here and will when I have time.

You can pirate skyrim, but it is the #1 game on Steam since it came out. Make a great game and you have great sales.

Piracy is a red herring for shitty games.

A pirated game != a lost sale.

Kosumo wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:30:
Or Al Lowe (of Lesure Suit Larry) saying how back in the day they sold more hint books than copies of that game.

Why do you need a hint book if your a pirate just having a look but you anit gonna play it any real amount of time?

Piracy is real, it does have a econmic effect on many industries.

To think otherwise is being nievie (shocking spelling sorry)

I seriously don't get denying that piracy costs sales.
Some people here are really, really adamant about always being right. I don't mean on this board, I mean they'll never admit that something they do is harmful and has adverse effects on things they love.

That said, it should just be accepted by the industry by now. I do not mean it should be allowed, but it should be built into every single sales projection and every single budget model. Your game will be pirated. Fact. Deal with it.
I'd wager most people DO take this into account but still mention it regularly to remind people that pirating isn't something that can be ignored.


Cue: "stop being a shill, I'm ignoring you, nothing potential consumers do is ever bad, the customer is always right."
I'm sure there's more I should respond to here and will when I have time.

Epic fucked the game up. they should have let PCF alone to do what they do best.....make great old school shooters

I think Destructiod put it best:

See what you've done, pirates? It's scientifically proven that you ALL would have bought Bulletstorm if you hadn't pirated it, which is a fact proven in a laboratory by scientists. Also, the Mir Space Station would still be going strong if it wasn't for you!