Creston wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 14:25:

Lorcin wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 02:16:

Creston wrote on Feb 26, 2012, 23:51:
On topic : Has anyone played through several of the classes' storylines? Are they different enough to warrant playing through them, or are even those just variations of "go here and kill X of Y?"

Creston

There's a Class plot line per planet but that is maybe 5 missions which is specfic to the class. The other missions you pick up on each planet are the same as the other classes.

Shit. So much for this being 8 single player games in one...

Thanks Lorcin. Edit : Thanks as well Jonny!

Creston

It's not quite that simple. The class missions, while a bit sparse, are in fact well worth it to me to create characters of each class. But there's more than that. There's also interactions with all of the 6 companions each of the 4 base classes comes with, which can vary from simple conversation missions to full-fledged unique quests. And then there's also things that make all the other common quests different for your different characters. First, there's always several choices (some of which actually make a real difference depending on how you choose) and you'll find yourself choosing different options for different characters based on whether you decide to play light side or dark side, but also based on what your companion of choice is probably going to like or dislike. You also get some different options and cutscenes depending on whether you're a sith/jedi or not, and you also get different options depending on gender.

There's also alternatives to questing for leveling. If you've already leveled one character and you're not finding the differences in repeat quests to be different enough, you'll find you can level very quickly by doing your class & companion quests, space combat misssions, and flashpoints. The downside here is that space combat gets very repetitive and it can be difficult to find a group for flashpoints due to dwindling populations. Things that were easy to find a group for in the first month are now basically a crapshoot.

It's still worth the monthly sub for me at this point, because I'm still enjoying playing my various alts (I have at least 1 of each base class on empire side). That being said, I'm fairly certain I'll be permanently done with the game in another 3-6 months.

Two months? If you were lucky and weren't going all out. Back at the end of the open beta I knew some people who had been casually playing, for the 3mo period and had just hit 40. 2.5mo was pretty average

I've often wondered why more games haven't duplicated that aspect of WoW? They all seem focused on getting the gameplay similar, but overlook what might be, imo, one of the keystones to its success - drawing out the content.

As others have mentioned, it's really impossible to have enough level-cap content in a game to satisfy people at launch time. So if you plan your game around leveling in such a way as to have people hitting the level cap in days, what do you expect them to hang around and do? Obviously not everyone is going to cap out in days, but if people can do it that fast, the more casual players are still going to accomplish it in weeks, rather than months.

I mean, I can see the other side of it, you want the casual people to feel like they are progressing, and have access to all the content, but you've got to plan for the long term. As long as the content itself is enjoyable, you can keep people around for months leveling - and that gives you more time to work on additional high-level content.

I've felt like the game has been very anticlimatic. 100's of millions of dollars, several years of development and hype...and this is it? I think the graphics are poor, even WoW's feel better. Even at max settings grass still "loads" as I'm running towards it in the distance, there is simply no excuse for that nowadays. The game also feels "clunky", not nearly as polished as other MMO's. Space Combat is a 1980's arcade game, might be lucky if one person says something once an hour in general chat, etc etc. It's sad to say because I was hoping this would be something I could play for years, but I think this will end up being a small niche game in the long run.

.net_Drifter wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 02:21:
Still not enough though to get me to buy the game. I've heard too many times, from devs and those who are enthusiastic about a game, how great it will be only to be let down.

You can apply that pessimistic attitude to every game that will ever be made and stop gaming altogether. No one is promising that GW2 will be great. Just different enough to be worth a try.

Lorcin wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 02:16:

Creston wrote on Feb 26, 2012, 23:51:
On topic : Has anyone played through several of the classes' storylines? Are they different enough to warrant playing through them, or are even those just variations of "go here and kill X of Y?"

Creston

There's a Class plot line per planet but that is maybe 5 missions which is specfic to the class. The other missions you pick up on each planet are the same as the other classes.

Shit. So much for this being 8 single player games in one...

Thanks Lorcin. Edit : Thanks as well Jonny!

Creston

I've been having a good time with the game. The storyline of my character was good, leveling was fine, the group content is done well. I've found a casual raiding guild that is just now starting hard mode raids. As usual, a good guild can really add legs to a game like this. And I'm somebody that was suffering from WoW burnout. So it's been nice to get back into the MMO genre ... for awhile.

Problem is, a few months in, I can already tell there is no way I'll be playing for years like I did with WoW. The game is just too much of the same. Six months maybe. Even with new content I imagine many of us will have had our fill. There's just not enough depth. I never played SWG but from what I've read... man, if somebody could tweak that formula and make it work. More sandbox I guess.

This doesn't make SWTOR bad. I have no issues with paying for the game and a sub now. I'm getting my dollars worth. But I would imagine they want to keep me for a loooong time, and with this model of game, it just won't happen. WoW did for many people because it was a new experience in total for a huge amount of the player base. I still remember being actually nervous about taking my character over the next hill, or into that unexplored cave. That doesn't happen to anybody anymore. Everything just becomes so much of the same 'ole same 'ole.

I'm really looking forward to GW2. Something really new to sink my teeth into.

.net_Drifter wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 02:21:
Still not enough though to get me to buy the game. I've heard too many times, from devs and those who are enthusiastic about a game, how great it will be only to be let down.

Well, I'm not sure what you expect. Since there is no subscription fee, the risk is minimal. Even if you only get a couple of weeks enjoyment, you got your money's worth, compared to most single player games released nowadays. Everything about the PvE and the PvP suggests an evolution to the genre instead of the same re-hashed shit. Granted, there are going to be basics that all mmo's have... character building, skill trees, killing mobs, doing quests, etc. etc., but this is the first game I've seen where the approach is "to encourage cooperative play without forced grouping", and the design is not intrusive to a hard core soloer.

The only thing I can suggest is that you wait for the post-launch reviews and then decide. You won't be missing anything by avoiding launch. As a matter of fact, you'll probaby avoid the inevitable launch woes of their servers being overloaded.

Jonny wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 05:30:
I never played vanilla WoW, but from what I understand it took two months of regular play to even hit the level cap.

Two months? If you were lucky and weren't going all out. Back at the end of the open beta I knew some people who had been casually playing, for the 3mo period and had just hit 40. 2.5mo was pretty average

Creston wrote on Feb 26, 2012, 23:51:
On topic : Has anyone played through several of the classes' storylines? Are they different enough to warrant playing through them, or are even those just variations of "go here and kill X of Y?"

The Class storylines are interesting, although they sometimes have time sink travel across the galaxy, click on a guy, come right back quests. The problem comes with everything else, they're so hugely outnumbered by the side quests and planet quest lines that are exactly the same for every class that unless you're the type of guy who played Mass Effect 14 times you won't be able to stand it.

You could very slowly level through PvP or grinding Flashpoints and only do your class quests per world I suppose, but that would probably be just as dull unless you're a real fan of either. If you want to quest though you're stuck repeating the same content, unlike most MMO's which give you at least two places per level bracket TOR has one straight line you must follow.

Surprising to hear so many people quitting after a month and a half. What did everyone do when WoW was just released and had (virtually) no content for high end?

I never played vanilla WoW, but from what I understand it took two months of regular play to even hit the level cap. I had early access and played over Christmas holidays, my Bounty Hunter hit 50 before the end of the month. I wasn't even dodging the usual Holiday activities over that period either.

So I watched the 4 videos and pretty much saw the same run there, kill that mechanic I've seen in other games I've played online.
The graphics ranged from pretty good to downright dated (could be due to the age of the video though).
In fact, only two things caught my attention.
1. The fight with the dragon.
2. At the end, where the magic user became a tornado.

As for the comments here, I will admit the thought of a game based around dynamic events is intriguing, and a developer that actually listens to the community could be nice, depending on who they decide to listen to.
This seemed interesting too, as it might resolve one of my bigger complaints with MMOG's:

There is no kill stealing, there is no loss of loot rights, and you are rewarded for participating and "helping out" (whether it be a support role or a direct combat role).

Still not enough though to get me to buy the game. I've heard too many times, from devs and those who are enthusiastic about a game, how great it will be only to be let down.

Creston wrote on Feb 26, 2012, 23:51:
On topic : Has anyone played through several of the classes' storylines? Are they different enough to warrant playing through them, or are even those just variations of "go here and kill X of Y?"

Creston

There's a Class plot line per planet but that is maybe 5 missions which is specfic to the class. The other missions you pick up on each planet are the same as the other classes.

In general the objectives are prettied up instead of just kill X of Y and I can't think of a single one where I had to collect something like Zebra hoofs only to find that most of the Zebra's didn't have a single hoof, let alone 4.

The only really grindy sections are the bonus objectives (you get them if say your told to get infected by a rakghoul and on killing one it will ask you to kill another 40 of them). But the bonuses are very optional - I've always done them, but I've always levelled quicker than the suggested range for the planet I'm on.

ToR failed where only WoW succeeded: graphics.

In WoW everything just visually fits. You notice exactly when you crit and how much damage each hit does; you know exactly which enemy of the 12 hitting you is bringimg your health down so quickly; you know exactly when your char performed an attack you told him to execute; et cetera.

This is something every single MMORPG except for WoW has failed to do.

Also in ToR's case there are too many ranged enemies due to lore, making it tedious to be a melee tank or dps and too easy and unengaging for a ranged player.

Last but not least, if Bioware spent less money giving every single quest character voice-over and more money making the main quests (planets + character) more engaging.. in other words if they made side-questing more like WoW and the main quests more like, say, Mass Effect / KoToR... this already would've been so so so much better.

But the graphics, that was a mistake since production day #1.

Fion wrote on Feb 26, 2012, 15:44:
Gaming is becoming the primary medium of entertainment throughout the world. The movie industry is stagnating, as is the television industry and the music industry.

I will agree with everything except the television industry. Yes, NBC, FOX, CBS and their ilk produce almost nothing but procedural shit and reality shows, but if you look a bit further to channels like AMC and FX, or pay for stuff like on HBO, there are a LOT of just really, really excellent TV shows being produced.

Off the top of my head :

- Breaking Bad
- Mad Men
- Sons of Anarchy
- Justified
- Boardwalk Empire
- Eastbound and Down

And then a few on the good ole' networks

- Community
- Fringe

There's nothing coming out of Hollywood anymore, movie-wise, but the TV industry is making some really awesome stuff.


On topic : Has anyone played through several of the classes' storylines? Are they different enough to warrant playing through them, or are even those just variations of "go here and kill X of Y?"

Surprising to hear so many people quitting after a month and a half. What did everyone do when WoW was just released and had (virtually) no content for high end?

Creston

This comment was edited on Feb 26, 2012, 23:58.

I only played beta. The game would have made more sense if there was a "Over Arcing" story that groups of players could participate in to advance the story. All the individual solo "Main quests" were fine, but it was a rather huge snore fest watching other people interact while you're there stuck waiting. It made grouping with others boring as hell, or they skipped everything and missed the whole story.

They needed some overall group driven quest where people could participate much like they do in flashpoints (or whatever they are called), but made them stages in unlocking your classes abilities or unlocking content, ability to use new weapons or combinations of weapons. Something to drive people back into groups where waiting on others during the main quests wasn't so tedious because the story fit together with the "over arcing" story that encompassed all main quests to some extent.

This could have cut out A LOT of running around for your class main quests that held everything up....

Plus they could have put different over-arch outcomes for class combinations or choices, or whatever. Or even controlled content access via it, so you could open up different planets on the same side on different characters.


I dunno...it was cool for awhile, but eventually grouping with other people was very tedious because everyone had different quests and was on different parts. Or they were 20 minutes away but the only people looking to do that quest. Pure irritation instead of being fun.

ColoradoHoudini wrote on Feb 26, 2012, 20:15:

Jivaro wrote on Feb 26, 2012, 16:35:
I am not saying that this game is OMGWTFBBQ!!!!111!! awesome or anything...BUT...

I think some of you complaining about burnout and lack of content in the same sentence need to evaluate how much time you spend playing one game in any given day. I mean, I am not sure how any developer can reasonably be expected to make a game that will keep the attention of folks that are willing to put in 4+ hours a day/7 days a week for months or years at a time...right from launch. I just don't think its possible.....

Then the devs are severely missing the desires of a large part of their audience. TONS of players race to the top level, and want to see epic content and do epic things.. this is nothing new. More recently, there was Rift. It had zone events, expert rifts, raid rifts, Greenscale Raid.. world open pvp in a constantly contested zone, the various puzzles, a MUCH better AH that SWTOR, a much more varied skill tree. It had less money thrown at it than SWTOR.. yet I found myself playing Rift a TON more and for longer than I have SWTOR. I also believe that Rift introduced 1 and 2-man dungeons.. citing people not having anything to do at max level (raiding was out of their scope).. but they still wanted to play. What's there to do at 50 in SWTOR if I don't raid? umm.. world events? zone events? 1/2 man dungeons? There is PvP.. and it stinks for the most part.

Seems i really am talking myself into reinstalling Rift..haha

Yeah you are, because clearly you dig the "world events". At least thats what I have to assume since all there is to do at 50 besides raids and pvp is that. Personally, I found the world events repetitive. Cool the first time, boring afterwards...and in my mind they added nothing substantial to endgame. If that was all SWTOR added to the game, the same people complaining about lvl 50 being a boring place to be would still be complaining. I also found the leveling process tedious in Rift. In SWTOR I find the class stories much more interesting. I am a Star Wars fanboy though, so my opinion means pretty much zero on that front.

Your point about the devs missing the point is of value though. They are. Completely. I still think some folks are playing a little too much and expecting a bit too much right at launch, but it is completely fair to say that "Devs"...in general....are underestimating their audience. Right now I get the feeling that some of the most talented and influential developers in the industry are under the impression that "polish" is what the gamers want. I would argue that innovation would be of more value at this point. If a monthly payment is what these folks want, then innovation will carry them much further then "polish". There has to be a balance of course...you can't come out all bugged to hell either. That is why people are so jazzed about a GW2 and even a game like TERA because they hold some promise of being different in ways that people have been asking for. GW2 for a lot of different ways that other people here have already covered and TERA because of its action combat instead of the WoW style interface that so many MMOS use.

This comment was edited on Feb 26, 2012, 22:54.

ColoradoHoudini wrote on Feb 26, 2012, 20:15:
Then the devs are severely missing the desires of a large part of their audience. TONS of players race to the top level, and want to see epic content and do epic things.. this is nothing new. More recently, there was Rift. It had zone events, expert rifts, raid rifts, Greenscale Raid.. world open pvp in a constantly contested zone, the various puzzles, a MUCH better AH that SWTOR, a much more varied skill tree. It had less money thrown at it than SWTOR.. yet I found myself playing Rift a TON more and for longer than I have SWTOR. I also believe that Rift introduced 1 and 2-man dungeons.. citing people not having anything to do at max level (raiding was out of their scope).. but they still wanted to play. What's there to do at 50 in SWTOR if I don't raid? umm.. world events? zone events? 1/2 man dungeons? There is PvP.. and it stinks for the most part.

Indeed. It is quite sad that Rift never really took off. I guess it's popular enough, but people put so much faith in WoW and SW IPs that they never stuck with it. Rift implemented some truly awesome mechanics. The only reason I quit playing was that I played a warrior, which suffers from some severe design issues, which at the time the devs refused to acknowledge or fix (AFAIK they still haven't fixed them, but I haven't played in several months), and I was just too lazy to level up another character to max level... although the other classes that I did play were very much enjoyable. I think it was a perfect example of a game not trying to break the mold, but offered enough to not be the same old trite formula.

Yifes wrote on Feb 26, 2012, 20:59:
GW2 replaces the traditional MMO quest structure with an upgraded version of WAR`s public quest and Rift's system. Multistaged dynamic world changing events scale to the number of players involved and encourages teamwork. People who've played the game say its a much more organic experience, one that allows you the freedom to explore the world instead of being herded from one quest hub to another.

Everything Yifes said was spot on... but I wish to emphasize that the game is DESIGNED from the ground up, with dynamic events in mind. It is not a tacked on feature, like WAR's public quests, and Rift's system. This makes a huge difference in the way the game works, and how it encourages people to cooperate with each other. This is why people are reporting that it feels more organic or natural. (Gaming Press who've actually gotten a taste of the game)

There is no kill stealing, there is no loss of loot rights, and you are rewarded for participating and "helping out" (whether it be a support role or a direct combat role).

The game is totally structured to be a thriving community of players, even though there are personal storylines and the ability to solo.

Again... this is all done to put the "M" back in 'M'mo... and that's what makes the prospect of this game so exciting, compared to the other "same ol' crap products with different paint".

This comment was edited on Feb 26, 2012, 22:27.

.net_Drifter wrote on Feb 26, 2012, 18:40:
I keep hearing how GW2 is going to be the second coming of online games.
I tried the first GW, played it maybe a week and a half after it first came out, never touched it again.
This left me with pretty much no interest in a GW2.
What, exactly, am I missing about this game that it is supposedly so great?
I've heard this sort of hype about a few other games that didn't pan out (Warhammer Online and Age of Conan to name two), so what exactly is so great about GW2?

GW2 replaces the traditional MMO quest structure with an upgraded version of WAR`s public quest and Rift's system. Multistaged dynamic world changing events scale to the number of players involved and encourages teamwork. People who've played the game say its a much more organic experience, one that allows you the freedom to explore the world instead of being herded from one quest hub to another.

More skill based combat requires aiming abilities and active dodging of enemy attacks.

No fixed roles as Tank/Healer/DPS. Instead, the soft roles of control/support/damage are spread among the entire group as every class can heal and rez.

Immediate access to instanced PVP with premade max level characters via in game FPS style server browser.

DOAC style World vs World vs World PVP where you fight for your server against 2 others. Server pairings change every 2 weeks depending on your server's performance, ensuring balance.

Finally, the people making GW2 have been very open with the community. The public and press have had many opportunities to play their game, and with their recent closed press beta, the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive.

Jivaro wrote on Feb 26, 2012, 16:35:
I am not saying that this game is OMGWTFBBQ!!!!111!! awesome or anything...BUT...

I think some of you complaining about burnout and lack of content in the same sentence need to evaluate how much time you spend playing one game in any given day. I mean, I am not sure how any developer can reasonably be expected to make a game that will keep the attention of folks that are willing to put in 4+ hours a day/7 days a week for months or years at a time...right from launch. I just don't think its possible.....

Then the devs are severely missing the desires of a large part of their audience. TONS of players race to the top level, and want to see epic content and do epic things.. this is nothing new. More recently, there was Rift. It had zone events, expert rifts, raid rifts, Greenscale Raid.. world open pvp in a constantly contested zone, the various puzzles, a MUCH better AH that SWTOR, a much more varied skill tree. It had less money thrown at it than SWTOR.. yet I found myself playing Rift a TON more and for longer than I have SWTOR. I also believe that Rift introduced 1 and 2-man dungeons.. citing people not having anything to do at max level (raiding was out of their scope).. but they still wanted to play. What's there to do at 50 in SWTOR if I don't raid? umm.. world events? zone events? 1/2 man dungeons? There is PvP.. and it stinks for the most part.

Seems i really am talking myself into reinstalling Rift..haha

A timeline, if you will-

I was so against the game before I got in the beta.. way against it, it looked dull in animation and look. I joined most of you and countless others bashing the game. Then I got talked into the beta, loved it, bought it. Ate come crow.

Got my Imperial agent to 50, enjoyed some of the leveling up, got tired of the side quest voice dialog (skipped most of that past level 35 or so)..absolutely HATED the back and forth and back and forth of my class quest line. Constant running around was not in any way amusing. HATED the bugged (and I think, still bugged, class boss battle on a ship -no spoilers-.. and how long it took me to counter bug that fight to make it work.

I did some PvP along the way, totally misjudged the IA Sniper mechanic and ended up hating the idea that for my guy to be really effective in PvP he has to SIT STILL behind a big red shield. Oops.. my bad. Then the class mechanic bugs with my "roll to cover" not working or my "take cover in place" not working.

Got STEAMROLLED pre 50 in PvP.. often.. just rolled the heck over. Whichever dev thought it to be a good idea to have players with 19k health and ridiculous mitigation and big damage fight players with 12k health..ought to be fired. especially considering the field was never leveled.

50's got their own bracket, I was level 48.5 at the time, so I didn't get to enjoy the pre 50 PvP much anyhow.

Hit 50, stared at my guild (a WoW powerhouse raiding guild that had a few xfer over into SW.. some old faces.. etc.. gamers that were hardcore WoW raiders.. we raid.. we own content.. this is where I should be happy now.. right? Not one single bit.

I have not been motivated at all to log into the game at all.. the dailies blow, the PvP dailies are more of the same nonsense.. Ilum (the PvP world) was perhaps the worst implementation of world PvP I have ever seen in a game.. totally one sided vs the poor Repub.. then it just got boring as hell..nobody is there, it's capture.. get in.. get out.. go do something else.

I sit here with free time, and no games I want to play. Thinking of reinstalling Rift.. no kidding. I guess I'll just play BF3 for now -shrug-

tldr:
wanted to hate it
ended up loving it
got really bored despite this game being exactly what I'd want, on paper

dunno man, just felt like it missed the mark to me.