Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Feb 13, 2012, 11:30:

InBlack wrote on Feb 13, 2012, 09:39:
I cant believe that no one even mentioned DS9. That series was vastly superior to TOS and TNG. At least in my opinion. It was a bit darker in theme and had more action scenes than you can shake a stick at, but it still featured some incredible episodes, the best characterization of any ST series and pretty much all the good sci-fi stuff any trek fan would want.

IMO the best Trek movie has to be ST6: The Undiscovered Country. It had diplomacy, combat, prison escapes, a suspense mystery and some very memorable acting from all concerned.

Wrath of Khan is overrated...

It was mentioned in the post right before yours, and a few others as well.

Aside from Sulu finally being seen as a Captain, I found that film forgettable. Saavik was supposed to be the traitor in the original script, and they either lacked the cajones to follow trough, or couldn't see having a THIRD actress play that role. Either way, that blew a major element that would have made me respect the film and producers far more than I ultimately did.

Again, IMO.

^D^

InBlack wrote on Feb 13, 2012, 09:39:
I cant believe that no one even mentioned DS9. That series was vastly superior to TOS and TNG. At least in my opinion. It was a bit darker in theme and had more action scenes than you can shake a stick at, but it still featured some incredible episodes, the best characterization of any ST series and pretty much all the good sci-fi stuff any trek fan would want.

IMO the best Trek movie has to be ST6: The Undiscovered Country. It had diplomacy, combat, prison escapes, a suspense mystery and some very memorable acting from all concerned.

Wrath of Khan is overrated...

It was mentioned in the post right before yours, and a few others as well.

I cant believe that no one even mentioned DS9. That series was vastly superior to TOS and TNG. At least in my opinion. It was a bit darker in theme and had more action scenes than you can shake a stick at, but it still featured some incredible episodes, the best characterization of any ST series and pretty much all the good sci-fi stuff any trek fan would want.

IMO the best Trek movie has to be ST6: The Undiscovered Country. It had diplomacy, combat, prison escapes, a suspense mystery and some very memorable acting from all concerned.

Wrath of Khan is overrated...

Cutter wrote on Feb 12, 2012, 12:35:
If you want examples of what real ST is supposed to be that highlights quality writing and acting watch TNG's The Drumhead and Where Silence Has Lease. No one is saying that there isn't or shouldn't be action in ST just that it's the least part of it. The morality tales, the science, the exploration, those are the important bits and what differentiate from all the rest of the fictional schlock out there.

And TNG was the last good series. All the others had their moments here and there but nothing close to the consistency of TOS and TNG. I can't imagine a new series would even be remotely close to either.

So, when you say:

Star Trek, first and foremost, is about peaceful exploration, science, diplomacy, and all that other good stuff the masses find boring. The action aspect of it was the minor part of it and should always be that way.

What you're actually referring to is mostly TNG, and not Star Trek as a whole, because from what I remember of TOS, and I've watched the series several times, Kirk's idea of peaceful exploration and diplomacy usually involved:
1. Punching an alien
2. Shooting an alien
3. Blowing an aliens ship up
4. Screwing an alien (if it were female)

Then there was DS9, which devolved into what, 2 or 3 seasons of fighting during the Dominion war?
And how about Voyager, where it seemed like just about every week they were shooting at someone or something.
I won't even mention Enterprise, since I never made it through the first season and as such cannot comment on it.

Point being, you can't just concentrate on TNG being mostly what Star Trek was about, and poo poo anything that doesn't live up to it's standards.
And yes, I do consider TNG the best series followed by TOS. The only good TNG movie, imho, was First Contact, the rest I could go without ever seeing again, and not care. This kind of makes me sad, that TOS had more movies I liked, being the first four. The fifth, meh.

And finally, considering the fact that the new Star Trek movie is set just before when TOS started, I think the action quotient is just about right.
If it had been set in the TNG time frame, it might have been a little over the top concerning the action, but then again, how many TNG movies reached a resolution that didn't involve a fight?

Sphinx wrote on Feb 12, 2012, 12:55:
You all have it all wrong. The next series should be about Garak.

Ha. That would be something. In the Pale Moonlight (DS9) was a truly great episode.

Cutter wrote on Feb 12, 2012, 12:35:
If you want examples of what real ST is supposed to be that highlights quality writing and acting watch TNG's The Drumhead and Where Silence Has Lease. No one is saying that there isn't or shouldn't be action in ST just that it's the least part of it. The morality tales, the science, the exploration, those are the important bits and what differentiate from all the rest of the fictional schlock out there.

And TNG was the last good series. All the others had their moments here and there but nothing close to the consistency of TOS and TNG. I can't imagine a new series would even be remotely close to either.

You forgot, "The Inner Light. "

Hands down one of the best episodes of Trek, IMO.

^D^

You all have it all wrong. The next series should be about Garak.

Failing that, the Adventures of Captain Data would probably be pretty great, too. Of course, age is a problem for Brent Spiner even more than George Takei...

At one point (years and years ago) it was assumed that's what they'd do with Riker. That was before B+B got the boot (thankfully they're gone now).

Much as I like TNG better then TOS, I want the "Adventures of Captain Sulu and the USS Excelsior" show that was a huge rumor before the premise of Enterprise was announced.

Failing that, the Adventures of Captain Data would probably be pretty great, too. Of course, age is a problem for Brent Spiner even more than George Takei...

If you want examples of what real ST is supposed to be that highlights quality writing and acting watch TNG's The Drumhead and Where Silence Has Lease. No one is saying that there isn't or shouldn't be action in ST just that it's the least part of it. The morality tales, the science, the exploration, those are the important bits and what differentiate from all the rest of the fictional schlock out there.

And TNG was the last good series. All the others had their moments here and there but nothing close to the consistency of TOS and TNG. I can't imagine a new series would even be remotely close to either.

^Drag0n^ wrote on Feb 12, 2012, 11:29:

Ant wrote on Feb 12, 2012, 09:26:

nin wrote on Feb 11, 2012, 20:35:

I rmemeber how much fun I had with the Star Trek Elite Force game.

I keep hoping that one will show up on GOG.

What about its sequel game? Was it any good? I never played it. I only played the first one.

It was OK... IMO it was not as good as the first... Raven had higher standards than Ritual, again, IMO.

^D^

I liked the original better, also. And while neither was mindblowingly awesome (or genre changing), I seem to remember them both being fun little games.

I seem to remember the botmatch/multi had different classes for players, which wasn't something you found in every game back then.

^Drag0n^ wrote on Feb 12, 2012, 11:29:

Ant wrote on Feb 12, 2012, 09:26:

nin wrote on Feb 11, 2012, 20:35:

I rmemeber how much fun I had with the Star Trek Elite Force game.

I keep hoping that one will show up on GOG.

What about its sequel game? Was it any good? I never played it. I only played the first one.

It was OK... IMO it was not as good as the first... Raven had higher standards than Ritual, again, IMO.

^D^

Ah OK. Then, I am not missing much then. Thanks.

Ant wrote on Feb 12, 2012, 09:26:

nin wrote on Feb 11, 2012, 20:35:

I rmemeber how much fun I had with the Star Trek Elite Force game.

I keep hoping that one will show up on GOG.

What about its sequel game? Was it any good? I never played it. I only played the first one.

It was OK... IMO it was not as good as the first... Raven had higher standards than Ritual, again, IMO.

^D^

I like TOS better than the rest of the franchise... mainly because I'm an old fart and grew up on TOS. That doesn't mean I don't like TNG DS9, Voyager, etc... I just favor TOS.

That said... my two favorite episodes are Balance of Terror and Doomsday Machine... both of which involve heavy ship combat. Also ST-II is my favorite movie of the original cast. So, I enjoyed the 2008 reboot, and I actually appreciate the split timeline, so it doesn't step on the original stuff.

I still want a new Bridge Commander. I think a Simulation / RPG hybrid would be awesome. (Hybrid in the sense that Deus Ex as a Shooter / RPG hybrid). A pure simulation would most likely be boring. While the original Bridge Commander was Ok... I think it could have been much better with a lot more polish.

Anyway... that's all an opinion of a fairly avid TOS fan. Do I go to conventions and shit? No. But it's still one of my favorite shows, to this day.

nin wrote on Feb 11, 2012, 20:35:

I rmemeber how much fun I had with the Star Trek Elite Force game.

I keep hoping that one will show up on GOG.

What about its sequel game? Was it any good? I never played it. I only played the first one.

If you want to have a lasting fictional universe you need to keep adding believable scenario's/storylines with sufficient quality. Because it's SF, it all comes down to believability and immersion. Which implies another important factor, namely that actors need to be of sufficient quality to be able to act in a SF setting.

Patrick Steward and Brent Spiner being quality stage actors was a huge factor in the success of TNG.

With Voyager and later series/movies came a steady decline in the quality of the storylines as well as the quality of the actors. JJ's version of Star Trek has added a new low, the shallow storyline and acting performance of that movie was painful to sit through.

But I don't care how much they screw up the movies, I am more afraid what they will do to any new series. Another mediocre serie like voyager or enterprise will likely be the end of the franchise.

Basically any SF like Star Trek really needs quality to survive, otherwise it's doomed.

If it's anything like either Elite forces, Dominions Wars or Bridge Commander I'm all for it. Otherwise I'll pass. And mixing game styles is always a big fail, mind it.

Creston wrote on Feb 12, 2012, 00:17:

Golwar wrote on Feb 11, 2012, 18:58:
All that I really want is a new tv series. I don't care if it would be settled in the new time line or not. Pretty much anything would please me by now. I'd even watch Captain Archer and his "adventures". Promised!

Don't quote me on this, but there is apparently work being done on a series set after Voyager. Paramount realized that Trek was still a very valuable commodity after the first reboot movie, but since most of the reboot characters are too busy to sign up for a TV show, they're trying to see if they can continue the "old" universe so to speak.

Creston

I heard a rumor that they are working on a possible new show based in the alternate timeline...

^D^

Creston wrote on Feb 12, 2012, 00:22:

Cutter wrote on Feb 11, 2012, 14:39:

Snabel wrote on Feb 11, 2012, 14:30:
Me and everyone else respectfully disagrees with you. I loved the movie and the direction it's going in :)

If by "everyone else" you mean you and a few other faux Trek fans then you're correct. I enjoyed it as a good sci-fi space romp - and Karl Urban as Bones was perfect for the role - but I don't see it as real Star Trek. It's JJ's alternate-universe-dumbed-down-for-the-masses-over-the-top-action standard schlock. Mr. Roddenberry wouldn't have been too pleased with it. Star Trek, first and foremost, is about peaceful exploration, science, diplomacy, and all that other good stuff the masses find boring. The action aspect of it was the minor part of it and should always be that way. This is where STO fell down, and it's where this game is going to fall down - but it'll do well with those masses no doubt. No, this game and what JJ are doing is Derp Trek.

Yeah, I think you'll find that most "faux" Trek fans actually did quite enjoy the movie. As for Star Trek being about peaceful exploration, science, diplomacy and all that other good stuff, yep. In the TV shows, that concept works for entire episodes. In movies, however, that just doesn't fly. The best "old" Star Trek movies were widely considered to be the ones where there's some good ole' fightin' going on.

Few Trekkies I ever talked to said that the first Star Trek movie was their favorite. (Or ST 5 : The Final Frontier, for that matter...)

Creston

I just wanted to say I loved all the diplomacy and exploration in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Thank god for diplomacy.

I love it when someone comes out with the audacious claim that they are a "true" fan, and those having different tastes are fut bucking idiots.

(not talking about you, Creston, just feeding off your post.)

^D^

Cutter wrote on Feb 11, 2012, 14:39:

Snabel wrote on Feb 11, 2012, 14:30:
Me and everyone else respectfully disagrees with you. I loved the movie and the direction it's going in :)

If by "everyone else" you mean you and a few other faux Trek fans then you're correct. I enjoyed it as a good sci-fi space romp - and Karl Urban as Bones was perfect for the role - but I don't see it as real Star Trek. It's JJ's alternate-universe-dumbed-down-for-the-masses-over-the-top-action standard schlock. Mr. Roddenberry wouldn't have been too pleased with it. Star Trek, first and foremost, is about peaceful exploration, science, diplomacy, and all that other good stuff the masses find boring. The action aspect of it was the minor part of it and should always be that way. This is where STO fell down, and it's where this game is going to fall down - but it'll do well with those masses no doubt. No, this game and what JJ are doing is Derp Trek.

Yeah, I think you'll find that most "faux" Trek fans actually did quite enjoy the movie. As for Star Trek being about peaceful exploration, science, diplomacy and all that other good stuff, yep. In the TV shows, that concept works for entire episodes. In movies, however, that just doesn't fly. The best "old" Star Trek movies were widely considered to be the ones where there's some good ole' fightin' going on.

Few Trekkies I ever talked to said that the first Star Trek movie was their favorite. (Or ST 5 : The Final Frontier, for that matter...)

Creston