The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up

The Star Wars: The Old Republic Website has an update on the PvP problems that were just patched out of the Star Wars MMORPG (thanks nin). Though some players abused the problems that followed the version 1.1 patch, they say they will not be implementing a rollback, but they repeat a warning they will be taking actions in cases they feel the situation was exploited "to an unreasonable degree." Here' part:
The amount of Valor granted from these activities was significantly more than intended and we are now carefully investigating players who were on Ilum during this period, and present at some of these 'camping' events. I can reassure you that those who were involved and who gained an unfair advantage over other players inappropriately will be carefully reviewed and action will be taken to restore game balance. This could include Valor adjustments or account actions in accordance with the severity of the issue.

We have made the decision not to enact a mass 'rollback' of Valor points for all players in the game, or even on Ilum. This would unfairly penalize some players who may not have been present during this event. Rest assured though, anyone and everyone who is found to have exploited the situation to an unreasonable degree will be investigated and actions taken as needed. Our in-game metrics are able to give us precise details on where players were, what they were doing and what rewards they gained.

We take any sort of situation where one group of players gains an unexpected or unintended advantage over other players very seriously and will act to ensure that all players can have a fair and fun game experience.
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72 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 2.
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52.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 22, 2012, 00:50
52.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 22, 2012, 00:50
Jan 22, 2012, 00:50
 
Lorcin wrote on Jan 22, 2012, 00:28:
I'm on a desktop anyway, not like it goes anywhere and if my internet went down I'd tether my mobile for a couple of hours.

Good luck playing the game across a 3G tether...

Creston
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51.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 22, 2012, 00:28
51.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 22, 2012, 00:28
Jan 22, 2012, 00:28
 
Prez wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 18:31:

It was over 10 years between Brood War and SC2. I think someone would have to be just a little naive to think that that wait would have still been as long were there no WoW to milk. It has been a terribly long wait for Diablo 3 as well, but even worse, Blizzard is turning even it into some sort of MMO abomination with its idiotic cash shop and always online singleplayer requirement. Because of their ability to monetize WoW no doubt. Two game series that practically defined my gaming youth changed for the worse because of MMO influence.

No, you really can't convince me that MMO's aren't the bane of modern gaming. Like I said, I don't expect others to agree, but I loathe MMO's to my gaming core.

Well it's taken Valve 8 years to release 2 DLC episodes for HL2 so far so 10 years for a full blown sequel from one of the top tier companies I guess is becomming more frequent. HL1 > HL2 gap was 6 years, Bioshock to Bioshock Infinite 5 years (Bioshock 2 doesn't count). Elder Scrolls 4 > 5 was almost 5 years etc etc

Diablo 3 had been announced for nearly 4 years now - Blizzard might just be even slower than Valve.

I agree the cash shop is probably bad - but hopefully it means they've made a bloody difficult game. Got the skills to get to the end? Fine go ahead. Stuck on level 4? $5 get's you a sword of thawcking. Hopefully it's aimed at people to dumb or uncoordinated to play the game.

As for always on single player - that's purely antipiracy which for me I don't really mind. I'm on a desktop anyway, not like it goes anywhere and if my internet went down I'd tether my mobile for a couple of hours.
50.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 23:37
50.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 23:37
Jan 21, 2012, 23:37
 
s1mon75 wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 13:30:
In a PvP environment (which this was), spawn camping is an acceptable tactic. It has been in DAoC, EQ, Wow and others. To counter extensive grieving a quality developer prevents this by offering no Valor / Honour after the 2nd or 3rd kill or guards that protect spawners. So realistically, this is a developer issue not a player one. One that Bioware has learnt in the past few days.

So completely drowning out an entire faction, to the point that there is no way for them to play in the primary battlefield for endgame PVP, is perfectly fine for you? There's a difference between typical spawn camping, which can be avoided or broken through, versus what was shown in the video. What do you say to those who earned their ranks fairly, without taking advantage of broken mechanics? What you've done is worthless now and people will just assume you were part of the mindless mob? I'd say Bioware would have even been justified in doing a complete rollback of that period in valor points and pretending it never happened. A little temporary pain is better than a permanent devaluing of valor IMO... and I don't even PVP.

s1mon75 wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 13:30:
It also appears that to the fanboy's, EA / Bioware can do no wrong.

There may be some people out there who can see no wrong in Bioware, but naysayers like you go to the other irrational extreme. They did plenty wrong, and the game was only saved by whatever autonomy they still have. Still, it's far from a 'failure'.
49.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 18:31
Prez
 
49.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 18:31
Jan 21, 2012, 18:31
 Prez
 
Well if SWTOR fails hard enough it will take a big chunk of Bioware with it - you don't spend 200m of EAs money without a decent return or the axe will well and truly fall. Blizzard are still making Starcraft 2, Diablo 3 etc (with a vastly increased budget from the WOW cash) and Bioware are still making Mass Effect 3, Dragon's Age 3 etc etc.

It was over 10 years between Brood War and SC2. I think someone would have to be just a little naive to think that that wait would have still been as long were there no WoW to milk. It has been a terribly long wait for Diablo 3 as well, but even worse, Blizzard is turning even it into some sort of MMO abomination with its idiotic cash shop and always online singleplayer requirement. Because of their ability to monetize WoW no doubt. Two game series that practically defined my gaming youth changed for the worse because of MMO influence.

No, you really can't convince me that MMO's aren't the bane of modern gaming. Like I said, I don't expect others to agree, but I loathe MMO's to my gaming core.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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48.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 18:17
48.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 18:17
Jan 21, 2012, 18:17
 
Prez wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 17:45:


Don't care at all how you view it, pathetic or otherwise. When studios start changing their focus to MMO cash-cow grind-fests away from deeper, better games (Blizzard, Bioware, etc) , it's a detriment to gaming in general as far as I'm concerned. There are fewer good games to play because every developer and publisher wants to jump on the MMO cash-cow express. The more spectacularly an MMO fails, the better in my view. I'm not asking you to agree; the guy asked a question and I answered it, speaking only for myself of course.

Aside from the fact you could pretty much just close the chat window and just play 0-50 as a number of pretty decent bioware RPGs (it's no grind fest - especially if you skip bonus objectives); you say you'd be happy however badly any mmo fails.

Well if SWTOR fails hard enough it will take a big chunk of Bioware with it - you don't spend 200m of EAs money without a decent return or the axe will well and truly fall. Blizzard are still making Starcraft 2, Diablo 3 etc (with a vastly increased budget from the WOW cash) and Bioware are still making Mass Effect 3, Dragon's Age 3 etc etc.

Ultimately making an MMO is a gamble - but if it's successful it gives studios a lot of leeway to make games to their standards not the publishers because they have the bank balance to do it. If it fails then the dev is in big trouble. How could you look at Bioware's and Blizzard's back catalogue and not want them to have more money in the bank and the opportunity to be more independent.

And who know's now Bethesda now they can release their MMO under the Fallout not the shaky Rage label (pretty obvious they settled when they realised nobody wanted a Rage MMO), they also may get a decent influx in cash and actually be able to afford a Q&A department or even a decent engine.
47.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 17:45
Prez
 
47.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 17:45
Jan 21, 2012, 17:45
 Prez
 
Teddy wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 16:27:
Prez wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 15:46:
Why is it that whenever a new MMO comes out there are people who actually root for it to fail?

Guilty. I can't speak for others here, but in my case it's because I utterly detest all MMO's. They are the worst thing to happen to modern gaming this side of Activision in my opinion.

That's pretty pathetic, don't you think? If you don't like them, don't play them. There's plenty of other games out there, but instead you desperately hope they fail so that the people who DO enjoy playing them get screwed?

Don't care at all how you view it, pathetic or otherwise. When studios start changing their focus to MMO cash-cow grind-fests away from deeper, better games (Blizzard, Bioware, etc) , it's a detriment to gaming in general as far as I'm concerned. There are fewer good games to play because every developer and publisher wants to jump on the MMO cash-cow express. The more spectacularly an MMO fails, the better in my view. I'm not asking you to agree; the guy asked a question and I answered it, speaking only for myself of course.

This comment was edited on Jan 21, 2012, 17:52.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
Avatar 17185
46.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 16:27
46.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 16:27
Jan 21, 2012, 16:27
 
Prez wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 15:46:
Why is it that whenever a new MMO comes out there are people who actually root for it to fail?

Guilty. I can't speak for others here, but in my case it's because I utterly detest all MMO's. They are the worst thing to happen to modern gaming this side of Activision in my opinion.

That's pretty pathetic, don't you think? If you don't like them, don't play them. There's plenty of other games out there, but instead you desperately hope they fail so that the people who DO enjoy playing them get screwed?
45.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 16:24
45.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 16:24
Jan 21, 2012, 16:24
 
Creston wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 11:58:
Doombringer wrote on Jan 20, 2012, 23:37:
Creston wrote on Jan 20, 2012, 23:18:
and again Bioware punishes people for playing their broken game in a way that's allowed by the system. Creston

Because this is the first time this has ever happened in any MMO, ever, and Bioware is the first developer to punish players for "creative use of game mechanics" ...

RIGHT. If I had a dollar for any time a developer had to rollback or take action against a player, guild or raid group for cheesing a loot system, Honor system, or in general using a bug to their advantage... I'd be a rich man.

Don't make Bioware out to be some huge badguy here. This happens very often, in many MMOs. Just recently, Blizzard took action against raids who cheesed the LFR loot system, exploiting it, in patch 4.3... a patch that was on PTR for weeks upon weeks.

Fair enough, but have the other MMOs ever BANNED players for it? Not for cheating, but for playing a clearly broken mechanic?

I have no problem with them rolling back the ill-gotten gains, but why are people being banned for playing the game?

Creston

Yes. WoW banned several guilds (the people involved in the actual incidents) for abusing obvious bugs in boss encounters.

You're not "playing the game", you're abusing a mechanic in such a way that it detracts from the enjoyment of other people who also paid to play the game. Griefing is technically "playing the game" by your definition. It's also harassment and something that will get you temporarily banned in just about every MMO in existence if it's proven you're doing it, which isn't that hard to do in a game that logs everything you do in the first place.

Just like the people who intentionally abused the bug early in Battlefield 3 where you fell through the terrain but could still see/shoot through it. If they were intentionally doing it, they got banned from any decently moderated server for doing so, and they deserved it, every one. This is no different.
44.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 15:46
Prez
 
44.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 15:46
Jan 21, 2012, 15:46
 Prez
 
Why is it that whenever a new MMO comes out there are people who actually root for it to fail?

Guilty. I can't speak for others here, but in my case it's because I utterly detest all MMO's. They are the worst thing to happen to modern gaming this side of Activision in my opinion.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
Avatar 17185
43.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 14:51
Dev
43.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 14:51
Jan 21, 2012, 14:51
Dev
 
s1mon75 wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 13:30:
But quote me, this game is doomed. I'd say in a year it will be Free To Play and most of its revenue will come from Micro Transactions.
I doubt it, this is EA we are talking about. Even if it is a flop it probably would take 2 years before they gave up and did it F2P
42.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 14:10
42.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 14:10
Jan 21, 2012, 14:10
 
Stormsinger wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 13:37:
Creston wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 11:58:
I have no problem with them rolling back the ill-gotten gains, but why are people being banned for playing the game?
Creston

Probably because people who use exploits (especially against other players) will do so again and again*. Cheaters will cheat. Banning them costs you fewer players than keeping them. Just like kicking a card cheat out of the poker game...if you find someone cheating and let him continue to play, your honest players will leave.

* based on 12+ years in the MMO industry.

Yes, but I don't think it's "cheating" - it's Bioware not anticipating the fact that on PvP servers, there will be a MASSIVE population difference between the Republic and Sith players. That's not easily tested in beta, but should have been pretty fucking obvious if they had realized that the same issue exists in other two faction games like World of Warcraft.
41.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 13:39
41.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 13:39
Jan 21, 2012, 13:39
 
wtf_man wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 10:53:
Looks to me like this game will flop. Rumor isthat they have spent anywhere from 300-500 million making this game... (I said rumor)... and EA's shares have dropped already because the sales have been short of expectations.

Combine that with people that are not subscribing after the first month... at least 30% according to the polls I've seen on different gaming sites, which normally isn't bad for an MMO, but would be bad for an MMO that cost an immense amount and already had underperformed in sales. Of course those polls aren't scientific... but it does give somewhat of an indication.

Then you have people reaching level cap within a week, and the majority of their player-base the upper levels within the first 3 weeks, and because of full voice overs...there's a real challenge to add enough content in a timely manner.

Finally add the major gripes of a crappy UI, the servers constantly being taken down, the broken quests, the typical launch bugs, and the failed patching that causes "emergency patches"... in an over-saturated market that has plenty of competition.

Yeah... that's not pretty. And while it may not flop as fast as say Warhammer Online did... it will probably flop harder due to the development costs.

I honestly believe that you don't know what you are talking about. If 70% of the game sales sub after the first month the game will make an enormous sum. I am not seeing any mass exodus on my server. There were 100s of people on every planet before the 20th and there are still hundreds.

Also your notion that everybody leveled to the cap in the first week is just DUMB. Sure there are 50s but on my server there are TONS of lower levels who are NOT alts.

Just the fact that you come on here with no REAL knowledge and state that the "majority" of players were 50 in the first week shows your ignorance.

Why is it that whenever a new MMO comes out there are people who actually root for it to fail?

40.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 13:37
40.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 13:37
Jan 21, 2012, 13:37
 
Creston wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 11:58:
I have no problem with them rolling back the ill-gotten gains, but why are people being banned for playing the game?
Creston

Probably because people who use exploits (especially against other players) will do so again and again*. Cheaters will cheat. Banning them costs you fewer players than keeping them. Just like kicking a card cheat out of the poker game...if you find someone cheating and let him continue to play, your honest players will leave.

* based on 12+ years in the MMO industry.
39.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 13:30
39.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 13:30
Jan 21, 2012, 13:30
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 08:42:
Now if you'd just cancel your life this world would be a smarter place.

So if I killed myself, the world would be 'smarter' for it? Wow, I bet you have some proud parents.

In a PvP environment (which this was), spawn camping is an acceptable tactic. It has been in DAoC, EQ, Wow and others. To counter extensive grieving a quality developer prevents this by offering no Valor / Honour after the 2nd or 3rd kill or guards that protect spawners. So realistically, this is a developer issue not a player one. One that Bioware has learnt in the past few days.

It also appears that to the fanboy's, EA / Bioware can do no wrong. And hey thats fine, your opinion is yours to cherish. But quote me, this game is doomed. I'd say in a year it will be Free To Play and most of its revenue will come from Micro Transactions.
38.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 13:17
38.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 13:17
Jan 21, 2012, 13:17
 
The launch of the game went very well from what I have experienced in past MMO launches.

Their customer service is what REALLY needs work. I've seen some screenshots posted on the MMO Champ forum where a customer is in live chat with a GM and the GM doesn't even know what a flashpoint is, how to spell, and uses keyboard emoticons.

The CS was also bad when WoW came out but to know even know what a flashpoint is just nothing short of atrocious and needs to be worked on not only for in game know-how, but in general as well.
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37.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 13:14
37.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 13:14
Jan 21, 2012, 13:14
 
Creston wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 11:58:

Fair enough, but have the other MMOs ever BANNED players for it? Not for cheating, but for playing a clearly broken mechanic?

I have no problem with them rolling back the ill-gotten gains, but why are people being banned for playing the game?

Creston

Thing is they weren't playing the game - they were exploiting an obvious bug. We all know exploiting bugs is frowned upon and your not telling me a single person sat there for an hour or more watching his valor go through the roof while thinking the game was designed that way?

I'm guessing bans would be temporary - and only handed to people who encouraged others to join in or talked about how obviously it was a bug.
36.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 13:11
36.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 13:11
Jan 21, 2012, 13:11
 
As for the game being a 'failure', I think people have a heavily distorted view of what constitutes success for an MMO. As a rule, MMO launches are rocky, and SWTOR has actually had one of the smoothest I've been a part of. Spam is very rare, server downs are infrequent and at very acceptable times, bugs are being fixed as they pop up. I was there for the start of Vanguard and Aion, I know what a bad launch looks like. Even WoW's launch was many orders of magnitude worse than this. TOR won't be a Warcraft-killer, but I don't see why it can't have a healthy lifespan as MMO's go.


...That said, I still expect Guild Wars 2 to rip me right away from it.
35.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 12:43
35.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 12:43
Jan 21, 2012, 12:43
 
I have no problem with them rolling back the ill-gotten gains, but why are people being banned for playing the game?

The way I see, it really depends on the severity and how many people can be implicated or affected by the exploit. Players were likely aware that it was an exploit and something was wrong but the valor gains or the grieving they provided made it justifiable to continue doing it. Any player who spent hours in Ilum spawn camping for valor is likely lying if they did not think they were exploiting.

I mean, if the players were all like 'maybe we should stop and let them leave so they can play the game', there likely wouldn't have been issues but the reality is is that they knew what they were doing and practically held other players hostage and decided that their valor is more important than allowing someone else to play the game.

You can blame the devs for the actual mechanic and design issues but the players are still accountable for not only taking advantage of the exploit but denying others their right to play the game.

To take an example from WoW, I remember the fiasco where one guild obtained a developer item in the mail and they proceed to one-shot Ulduar. Most of the players who participated were flat out banned for taking advantage of a situation in spite of the fact that they should have never received that item in the first place. Blizzard caused the issue and the player could have wrote up a ticket, stuffed the item in the bank and said something was wrong but instead decided to use it for themselves.

This comment was edited on Jan 21, 2012, 12:54.
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34.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 12:41
34.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 12:41
Jan 21, 2012, 12:41
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 12:00:
Must have skipped the part where I disagree with alot of the way Bioware themselves have handled it. Selective reading and all that.

No, I didn't miss it.

However, first you accuse me of exaggerating, then follow up with people are making a mountain out of a molehill.

That's being awfully defensive over a game that OBVIOUSLY isn't doing as well as expected by the publisher.

Whether they spent 200, 300, or 500 million is irrelevant... they obviously DID spend a shitload more than most MMO's that are in development, and their necks are out on the line. We don't know the exact numbers... but it's easy to tell that EA isn't all that pleased with the market they have, so far.

It's all simple economics and observations. Yes, it is also speculation... but I claimed that from the beginning with "Looks to ME like this game will flop." So, I'm not sure who really has the "selective reading", here.

No biggie... it's just an observation / opinion on what I have seen for market reaction to this game. Unless they start pulling First couple of year WoW-like "climbing" numbers... they are going have a real hard time.
Get your games from GOG DAMMIT!
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33.
 
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up
Jan 21, 2012, 12:00
33.
Re: The Old Republic Ilum PvP Follow-up Jan 21, 2012, 12:00
Jan 21, 2012, 12:00
 
wtf_man wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 11:39:
Granz wrote on Jan 21, 2012, 11:32:
I stopped reading at "I don't even play it". That really is code for "who cares what you say".

Wow, another one butt hurt from general internet observations.

So I can't have an opinion since I don't play the game, huh?

Well.. your opinion is just as ignore-able, since this is a gaming community where we discuss things, and you post count shows that you aren't truly part of it, yet, Mr. Suspect Rank.

Yes I'm so butt hurt for calling a post out that is factually wrong. lol Ok. Guess it doesn't take much to be "butt hurt" these days. Must have skipped the part where I disagree with alot of the way Bioware themselves have handled it. Selective reading and all that.
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