Well, as much as I see what TES games share with shooters, I don't see what mentioning them adds in this discussion. Skyrim has action, does it make it an action rpg? I thought that category was for diablo like games. For me it's a FPRPG that follows in the footsteps of its predecessors. I agree with most of the criticism I have heard here though.

this said they managed to make the action good but at the same time they break the pace with poor IU design decisions. It's like their quests you can be an assassin and an agent of mara. ( I am ) they want to be a rpg and an action game. So you can fight an epic fight then pause it to look for this potion somewhere. There should have been efforts to make it coherent at last. It had never been in the previous games so they find no reason to change it. In the witcher you can only take a potion when preparing for combat not during combat in another game drinking a potion makes you vulnerable for a moment to the enemy's attacks. Here you can can just pause game and empty your stock of health potions. This doesnt mean the game isnt good or that I never die. But it's frustrating. easier access to stuff would help. Maybe they could add a cross shaped interface to the favourites key like the tab key. up for potions, down for shouts right for weapons &apparel, left for spells. That would sort stuff better for sure. Personally I havent added any potions to favourites so I dont have to go up and down.

I think the magic system needs more spells too. It's like they spent all their time on shouts, which comes out as a rival to the traditional magic system. Oh since anybody coming from any region can have shout powers I wonder why only Skyrim has them in its traditions?
Anyway I like the spells. They look better than they had in the past but I wish they were much more. I levelled up Illusion so my rogue could become invisible and because I had nightingale cowl that improved my illusion skill but the only spell I got in that category was muffle. Which was moot because I had nightingale boots that adds this effect permanently. ok illusion is good to play with crowds this time. It has become the mind control school. Light effects are now with alteration. it seems they didn't have much to add to that school. Well there are some effects from shouts I would have liked to see in spells. Storm call , slow time etc... But the shouts had two things for them that spells don't have... Any characters can use them, regardless of class so they can make puzzles requiring them in general quests. ( the way some spells are used in mage quests ) They can control how much characters can use them since there is a cooldown timer. So that they don't use slow time all the time for instance.

It's true that freedom is the main ideology of t he game and you can do what you want so if you follow daedras and become an assassin is up to you. Player feels encouraged because there is no social stigma about it. But what would you say if every guard in town knew you are an assassin. Actually sometimes there is one who says glory to Sithis or one recognizes your thieves guild armor ( wondering what sense there is to have 100 in sneak if anybody can recognize you ) Actually sometimes you are complimented for completing a daedric quest. Guards express their awe because you are carrying Azura's star ( X ray eyes ) And at the same children will ask to play with them even though you are wearing a grim-looking Dragon Priest mask. Well my assassin works for all sides, aedras & daedras. He spreads the good word of Mara after killing people. How is that possible? Well he's an hypocrite, hiding his dark side by doing good things for the community. The only thing is that gods aren't aware or they dont just care I am working for every and each of them and all give me their blessing....

This comment was edited on Dec 16, 2011, 13:16.

You're like the RPG Codex of shooters.

Well, there you go. I actually liked Crysis and bought Warhead as well. Crysis 2 I played for a couple of hours. It looks pretty but it just seemed, linear and consolised and predictable. I couldn't come close to finishing it, as it was almost insulting. My brother was watching me and has been a Mac evangelist for many years(meaning he doesn't play games anymore) and thought it was bad. When Mac users say your game sucks and you agree with them then I don't know what to say.

Since you mentioned Bulletstorm I realized that you're trolling me. Yeah, a CliffyB production complete with E grade dialogue, cutscenes, QTE's, linear corridors and wow, the occasional idiotic shooting gallery.

I meant *good* FPS's that require a modicum of skill. Not console shite. I have a backlog of crappy TV shows to watch while I'm eating dinner, I'm talking about *PC First Person Shooters*, not *while you eat dinner and change the diapers movies*.

Is 'Darkest of Days' a great idea? I liked the concept but the demo is even worse than Necrovision. Yes, it's pretty for an ancient console piece of garbage with horrible textures, but the FPS mechanics are pure shit. I'm not sure how you can consider any of this crap FPS. It's not. It's 'retards sitting on the couch hitting the A button'. They are not games.

Singularity is almost fun because it reminds me of any number of Wolfenstien mods that have been done to death. Yes, we're small in our teenage bedroom.

Anyways, I was hoping for some good PC FPS (First Person Shooters), not console cutscene movies with elements of pressing A or X key or whatever they are. Thanks for your effort. But maybe I was trolling you, I already knew that they stopped making FPS's several years ago.

And I'm not understanding what your exchange with Eldaron was all about. Are you saying that because the game mechanics are broken, that you have to 'pretend' just to get a game out of it? Make your own dungeon? I could be reading it wrong but why not buy the latest Dungeon Masters Guide and Players Handbook and sit on your couch and make it all up? Maybe call up a few friends?

Or better yet, just learn how to use Unity, generate a fantasy world and walk around in it and pretend you're battling dragons. You can even import premade dragons easy enough. I might be missing something here and if so, I don't understand what it is.

CreamyBlood wrote on Dec 13, 2011, 23:08:
There's actually a couple of half decent RPG's that have come out in the last few years but I can't think of one solid shooter. I'm just crying the blues.

I've been playing shooters since Doom and there are quite a few I enjoyed a lot recently. Crysis 2, Bulletstorm, Darkest of Days and Singularity are the ones that jump to mind right away (though Singularity is pretty "modern").

Bhruic wrote on Dec 13, 2011, 09:13:

Well, as Skyrim was designed as, roughly, more of the same, someone who didn't like Morrowind or Oblivion isn't going to like this game. Of course, that's like asking if someone who didn't like CoD1 and CoD2 is going to like CoD3.

Good point there. I guess I'm just whining. And the reason is that it's a damn shame to me that after all of these years we can't get a good RPG or FPS anymore, that they keep rehashing the 'established formula' without catering to the niche crowd, which I'm obviously a part of now. There's actually a couple of half decent RPG's that have come out in the last few years but I can't think of one solid shooter. I'm just crying the blues.

And I completely agree with that, StingingVelvet. Damn, when I read this thread I was like "Jerykk, don't tell people how to play. It's a matter of opinion." and due to your reply I just caught myself doing the same thing.

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Dec 13, 2011, 01:44:
I did all that with my main, except for the Stormcloak line of course. With a bit of discipline I might've done the same thing as you but the Stormcloaks weren't worth it. I'd rather just run around as a demi-god doing absplutely everything except for that questline. In this way you'd get enough points to invest in perks that are worth it. Yesterday I invested an hour in lvling my lvl 40 main to Smithing 90 from 35. Didn't feel like rerolling a char. I needed that daedric set!

I don't feel like I'm missing out on that Stormcloak questline. I'm not playing for the short and miserable main-quest anyway.

You certainly CAN do that, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. My point was that since the perk system encourages specialized characters it makes more sense to divide up the questlines between multiple characters. My Argonian took no magic perks so he could be ultimate stealth dude, so why would he join the mage's college? I mean, he COULD, but it's easy to roleplay that he would not.

If you don't want to do that kind of thing then don't, I'm just saying Skyrim supports that line of play MUCH more than Oblivion did.

As someone that thinks that Morrowind was ultimately quite boring, and that Oblivion was even worse how would you critically assess Skyrim as either an FPS or an RPG?

Well, as Skyrim was designed as, roughly, more of the same, someone who didn't like Morrowind or Oblivion isn't going to like this game. Of course, that's like asking if someone who didn't like CoD1 and CoD2 is going to like CoD3.

I prefer the style of Gothic 2 or Risen: An action/adventure with RPG lite elements that work, keep you on edge, have and interesting story and is *challenging*. I've never found that in a Bethseda game, only drudgery. I suppose with all of the gushing here I won't get an honest answer, or from anyone that is a Beth fan, but Crestons comment really suprised me.

Why did is surprise you? I mean, I could go into an explanation of how the magic in Skyrim has been decreased in effectiveness, and how there should be some sort of damage scaling in place, but you haven't even played Skyrim (or so you're suggesting), so I'm not sure what that would accomplish. What basis do you have for being surprised about anything Creston would say about Skyrim?

Wait what? Gothic and Dark Messiah? Skyrim? WHERE did you read that and who wrote it!?

Skyrim is like all the former TES games. Just a little bit prettier and some other improvements that you need to expect in today's games. Other than that is is still TES. Still drudgery. After a good couple of hours you start wondering what the hell you are doing. You start to shift uncomfortably in your chair, maybe breathe heavier, feel like you're in a hurry... in short: You realize you're wasting your time and life. A realization no other game you love to play should reveal to you.

So yeah. TES is TES. You love it and hate it. At some point you hate it enough to just stop playing.

Creston wrote on Dec 11, 2011, 21:08:
I hope they DRASTICALLY improve the magic system. After Oblivion (not to mention Morrowind), magic in Skyrim feels utterly pathetic.

Creston

I'm really amazed by that, Creston. Normally I would respect your experience in a 4x game but never an RPG, it seems like you're getting a little bit critical.

I personally think that Morrowind was okay for awhile but got really boring, Oblivion was basically shit with OOO and removing the quest compass and Fallout 3 was completely fucked.

Now, I remember on this site when Dark Messiah of Might and Magic came out it got panned horribly as an RPG. It was only a few years later that I tried it out and it worked GREAT as an FPS (First Person Slasher). It's probably one of the last good shooters made for the PC, maybe up there with Crysis, Doom3 and Quake 4. Not great games, but by todays standards, quite fun to me. The end of an era.

I thought that recently, DX3 did a good job as a shooter if you played it hard and turned off the console stuff. Unlike Bioshock, which had a fun story but failed as both a shooter and RPG.

As someone that thinks that Morrowind was ultimately quite boring, and that Oblivion was even worse how would you critically assess Skyrim as either an FPS or an RPG?

I prefer the style of Gothic 2 or Risen: An action/adventure with RPG lite elements that work, keep you on edge, have and interesting story and is *challenging*. I've never found that in a Bethseda game, only drudgery. I suppose with all of the gushing here I won't get an honest answer, or from anyone that is a Beth fan, but Crestons comment really suprised me.

I have heard several times that Skyrim is like a Gothic with Dark Messiah combat. As much as I want to believe it, I can't. I don't think Todd or Beth can come close to pulling it off and I don't see why they would attempt to. They are second to the six billion that CoD is raking in now. I suppose the only way to find out is to play it, but I've tried that a few times.

I really don't understand why the games industry has to constantly go for the mainstream without catering in some small degree to the niche audiences. The book and movie companies do it all the time and make money on those of us that aren't into Micheal Bey flicks. Or Twilight books. Why not make a few bucks and fill a segment of the gaming crowd and give us games we like?

It's so depressing sometimes.

StingingVelvet wrote on Dec 12, 2011, 18:33:

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Dec 12, 2011, 08:19:
I'm a thief, archer, paladin.. all in one! That's TES. No reason to role-play, imo, because the replayability sucks.

I do everything, accept everything. I'm a nicest and evilest possible character. I murder, I steal, I heal, I give. Anything not to miss out on any content. Ten years ago I would've gone for either thief/assassin or knight/paladin, until I realized it's a waste of time.

In Morrowind and certainly Oblivion I would agree with you, but the perks system and certain faction choices add a lot of roleplaying ability to Skyrim.

I have a "main" who did the Imperial side and everything but the Dark Brotherhood and I have an archer side character doing the Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and Stormcloaks stuff.

I did all that with my main, except for the Stormcloak line of course. With a bit of discipline I might've done the same thing as you but the Stormcloaks weren't worth it. I'd rather just run around as a demi-god doing absplutely everything except for that questline. In this way you'd get enough points to invest in perks that are worth it. Yesterday I invested an hour in lvling my lvl 40 main to Smithing 90 from 35. Didn't feel like rerolling a char. I needed that daedric set!

I don't feel like I'm missing out on that Stormcloak questline. I'm not playing for the short and miserable main-quest anyway.

You're missing the point. You get that quest just by overhearing conversation, and/or talking to random people who are nowhere near him. If you actually want to do the quest, sure, you have to go in and talk to him, but even if you don't talk to him, even if you don't want to do the quest, there is no way to remove it from your quest log.

That doesn't really have anything to do with morality, though. If someone dislikes playing a thief/assassin because they don't like killing or stealing from nice people, the existence of the quest in their journal doesn't force them to. If they're completionists and feel they have no choice, well, good luck with that. To me, being a completionist in an ES game means picking every lock, completing every quest, finding every location, clearing every dungeon, talking to every NPC, reading every book, maxing out every skill, etc. The likelihood of doing that in one playthrough is pretty unlikely.

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Dec 12, 2011, 08:19:
I'm a thief, archer, paladin.. all in one! That's TES. No reason to role-play, imo, because the replayability sucks.

I do everything, accept everything. I'm a nicest and evilest possible character. I murder, I steal, I heal, I give. Anything not to miss out on any content. Ten years ago I would've gone for either thief/assassin or knight/paladin, until I realized it's a waste of time.

In Morrowind and certainly Oblivion I would agree with you, but the perks system and certain faction choices add a lot of roleplaying ability to Skyrim.

I have a "main" who did the Imperial side and everything but the Dark Brotherhood and I have an archer side character doing the Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and Stormcloaks stuff.

And some of the "you can't refuse" quests, you do have to go out of your way to talk to the guy. Like the kid who starts you on the Dark Brotherhood path. He's inside a locked house, with people outside specifically saying what he's doing, so if you go in and still talk to him, you kind of have it coming.

You're missing the point. You get that quest just by overhearing conversation, and/or talking to random people who are nowhere near him. If you actually want to do the quest, sure, you have to go in and talk to him, but even if you don't talk to him, even if you don't want to do the quest, there is no way to remove it from your quest log.

Verno wrote on Dec 12, 2011, 13:50:

Creston wrote on Dec 12, 2011, 11:30:
I'm pretty sure you have the option to refuse most of those quests? Maybe not the Daedric ones, but eh, don't touch their shrines then.

Creston

Quite a few quests just get handed to you when you talk to people without an opportunity to refuse, most belonging to the Misc variety but there are a fair number of regular ones too. If you're the type of person who talks to everyone to get lore/etc then it makes for a cumbersome quest log.

True, but the quest log is a piece of shit no matter what, so it's kind of irrelevant to me.

And some of the "you can't refuse" quests, you do have to go out of your way to talk to the guy. Like the kid who starts you on the Dark Brotherhood path. He's inside a locked house, with people outside specifically saying what he's doing, so if you go in and still talk to him, you kind of have it coming.

That said, I do agree it'd be nice if you could shuttle quests to a "Whatever" category.

Creston

Creston wrote on Dec 12, 2011, 11:30:
I'm pretty sure you have the option to refuse most of those quests? Maybe not the Daedric ones, but eh, don't touch their shrines then.

Creston

Quite a few quests just get handed to you when you talk to people without an opportunity to refuse, most belonging to the Misc variety but there are a fair number of regular ones too. If you're the type of person who talks to everyone to get lore/etc then it makes for a cumbersome quest log.

theyarecomingforyou wrote on Dec 12, 2011, 10:23:
Yeah. Personally I found The Witcher 2 to have better missions and a lot of variety, though it was much more limited in scope. The morality in Skyrim seems very binary, with the assumption that you'll just go along with whatever a NPC asks you - one minute you're helping townsfolk and the next you're blindly following a daedric lord. It doesn't feel consistent and it's hard to play it as a character with a defined moral compass.

I'm pretty sure you have the option to refuse most of those quests? Maybe not the Daedric ones, but eh, don't touch their shrines then.

Creston

Verno wrote on Dec 12, 2011, 09:28:
I really enjoyed the dungeon crawling, there were only a few that were so big that I wouldn't want to tackle them right away on a second run. I thought the sheer number of shouts lessened their impact a bit though and it became very cumbersome to "manage" them in the menus.

I enjoyed the dungeons at first, especially as they can be quite varied and unbelievably massive, but the entire game starts to get a bit samey.

Bhruic wrote on Dec 12, 2011, 07:22:
There are quite a few you can't refuse, from the point of view of having the refusal remove the quest from your quest log. While it's possible to "fail" some quests to remove them from the list, there are more that you don't even have that option with. Fairly annoying if you're a completist role-player.

Yeah. Personally I found The Witcher 2 to have better missions and a lot of variety, though it was much more limited in scope. The morality in Skyrim seems very binary, with the assumption that you'll just go along with whatever a NPC asks you - one minute you're helping townsfolk and the next you're blindly following a daedric lord. It doesn't feel consistent and it's hard to play it as a character with a defined moral compass.

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Dec 12, 2011, 08:19:
I do everything, accept everything. I'm a nicest and evilest possible character. I murder, I steal, I heal, I give. Anything not to miss out on any content. Ten years ago I would've gone for either thief/assassin or knight/paladin, until I realized it's a waste of time.

Yeah, I do the same but mainly because that's how clearly how Skyrim is meant to be played. There just doesn't seem to be any consequence for murdering people or rampaging through towns stealing everything. I don't want a good / evil scale, as that is more restrictive than helpful, but I would like to see decisions made reflect how the gameworld reacts.

Don't get me wrong, it's only because Skyrim is so good that I'm annoyed that the potential is so much greater. It's still an exceptional game. But I'd still like to see missions where you can take a diplomatic approach. Why do you have to kill bandits in dungeons, why not join their cause? And I'd like to see a lot more in the way of politics, as the plots involving the Thaldor were really intriguing and could have been built up more.

Wish they'd add some way to make my horse more durable, since it's always charging into combat like that.

Maybe some sort of barding?

I really enjoyed the dungeon crawling, there were only a few that were so big that I wouldn't want to tackle them right away on a second run. I thought the sheer number of shouts lessened their impact a bit though and it became very cumbersome to "manage" them in the menus.