I was a bit disappointed how the perks were handled insofar as some would give special bonuses and as you pointed out some feel like if you don't take the perks you are weaker in those skills. The good side of this system is that it makes the perks class-defining.. making you an expert in what you chose. But there is a bad side to it, it's a major change from the Bethesda paradigm that practising a skill is how you improve it.
It still works that way but one may wonder if it's doing any good. Now my picklocking skill is almost 100 but I didnt see the harder locks getting easier because I didnt have points to invest in them. So did my skill improved for nothing? In some other skills you can see the damage of your armor and your weapons improve as you progress in skill but wondering how much they would be with perks. It still breaks the paradigm because one character with 100 in one handed weapons is still not as efficient as another with 100.
So how to circumvent that? ( in next games for instance ) remove those efficiency perks? make those perks automatic when you reach the level caps like in oblivion? or using the skill leveling system and when skill is 100 it keeps improving when you get 101 etc the only bonus is a free perk in this skill. Another way would be giving extra perk point (once ) if you pick skills that have reached the caps of 25 / 50 / 75 / 100.
The problem is that skills already make you level and thus giving you perk points already but improving in one hand combat allows you to improve your conjuration through perks. Once again a big departure from the Elder scrolls system. It worked better in Fallout since it uses a classic experience system. Not a problem that they change their system but here two different systems coexist. A good thing in Fallout was that perks werent linked to skills too. Those perks can still be had in Skyrim as quest rewards or active powers. For instance you can get rewarded by a training that give you a point increase in a few related skills. Same as some fallout perks. Some other perks: extra damage to people of opposite sex are given from a blessing.. Don't know how this bonus has anything to do with a goddess of beauty though,shouldnt she give a bonus to speechcraft with opposite sex instead?

Oblivion was a while ago and WOW happened in between so my memory is blurry but it seems to be that Oblivion wasn't that polished when it came out. I don't know if Win7 or Skyrim is to be accounted for that but the game is loading very fast. All the other games take longer to load so I would think it's Bethesda's doing. When I think of how long the loadscreens were in Morrowind I can't help but think Beth did a great job. What's more the game was very fluid when I started playing but got more jittery as I kept playing. Too bad there are many bugs littered here and there and the performance drops as the game goes. Used to be very fluid although my rig is a few years old. This said nowadays games are made to play on years old consoles so I don't see the point in buying a new rig. No wonder Nvidia is doing telephones these days.

Lockpicking requires no perks. Just a steady hand, and cool nerves.
I pick master locks and the only points I've ever had in lockpicking are those that are generated by lockpicking.

(bump the tumbler, don't just turn it, so you don't break picks)

Now having said that, it's funny to me that once upon a time you could start your character then make your way to the local plantation where you'd get a jinxing dagger that would break the gameplay for the next few hours, because it was so overpowered, and that was out in the open.
Nowadays I've picked all sorts of high level locks and all I get is steel hammers.
Everything in the game world seems governed by the leveling system, preventing me from gaining any advantage by my thiefsy ways.

The new system really makes a concerted effort to pigeon hole you and if you're not using trainers to focus yourself, I suspect you'd find yourself too focused.

StingingVelvet wrote on Nov 12, 2011, 14:01:

Jerykk wrote on Nov 12, 2011, 05:35:
If there is a level cap, then I guess you're right. Kinda. You can still max out all your skills, you just can't max out all your perks. Granted, the perks are pretty handy but they aren't essential. My Destruction skill is only level 20 and I'm already destroying enemies with my flamethrower. Bows seem a bit overpowered too, as I'm killing most enemies in one hit with the sneak shots and my archery is only level 30. This is on Expert difficulty, too.

The perks are pretty damn essential. For one-armed for example the first perk is a 5-long tree of "adds 20% damage." If I reach the cap without putting anything into that, how effective would I be with one-armed weapons without it? I would be doing half damage, essentially.

Similarly the lockpicking pretty much requires you to get the perks, at least so far. And since the perks require a skill level you can't just perk your way to awesome, you have to devote time to certain skills so when your level-up comes you can get the perks you want.

I think it's a brilliant system honestly, and encourages you to pick a role MUCH more than Morrowind or Oblivion did.

Prez wrote on Nov 12, 2011, 22:22:

xXBatmanXx wrote on Nov 12, 2011, 14:01:

Did you see the manual/help guide!? Thing is huge. Check amazon.

Is that why it's 27 bucks on Steam?

Dammit, not available in the UK as always.

xXBatmanXx wrote on Nov 12, 2011, 14:01:

Did you see the manual/help guide!? Thing is huge. Check amazon.

Is that why it's 27 bucks on Steam?

eunichron wrote on Nov 11, 2011, 23:01:

StingingVelvet wrote on Nov 11, 2011, 22:52:

Cutter wrote on Nov 11, 2011, 22:38:
They've really dumbed down the game for broader audience appeal unfortunately. The flavour is still great but this is very much RPG-lite.

How so? Compared to Morrowind or Baldur's Gate, sure, but compared to Oblivion or Fallout 3? No.

The perks mean actual character choice and defining. There are actually choices to make in the game now, with opposed factions and moral decisions. Also the two-hand mix system means more dynamic weapon choice and tactical options.

Compared to Oblivion this sucker is an 80's RPG where you have to draw maps.

Indeed. There's just so much to do and explore around the world, I don't see how it can be considered "RPG Lite." Just because it doesn't require a spreadsheet and 500 page manual doesn't mean it's dumbed down.

I've always preferred skill based systems, as opposed to standard level based systems, so I'm loving it. The UI may be a little dumbed down, I don't particularly like the inventory and vendor design, but the game and world itself are amazing.

Did you see the manual/help guide!? Thing is huge. Check amazon.

Jerykk wrote on Nov 12, 2011, 05:35:
If there is a level cap, then I guess you're right. Kinda. You can still max out all your skills, you just can't max out all your perks. Granted, the perks are pretty handy but they aren't essential. My Destruction skill is only level 20 and I'm already destroying enemies with my flamethrower. Bows seem a bit overpowered too, as I'm killing most enemies in one hit with the sneak shots and my archery is only level 30. This is on Expert difficulty, too.

The perks are pretty damn essential. For one-armed for example the first perk is a 5-long tree of "adds 20% damage." If I reach the cap without putting anything into that, how effective would I be with one-armed weapons without it? I would be doing half damage, essentially.

Similarly the lockpicking pretty much requires you to get the perks, at least so far. And since the perks require a skill level you can't just perk your way to awesome, you have to devote time to certain skills so when your level-up comes you can get the perks you want.

I think it's a brilliant system honestly, and encourages you to pick a role MUCH more than Morrowind or Oblivion did.

I haven't had this much fun with a game in a long time. The sidequests are massive and all the areas are very distinct - it really is a huge improvement over the generic dungeons / castles that littered Oblivion. Unfortunately the game isn't as polished as Oblivion, with crashes-to-desktop, UI quirks, walls that expose the world if you get too close, etc.

Here are a few screenshots I took earlier:

Defeated dragon / Spirit soul / Dragon attack

Btw, for you sneaky types (Spoiler and sorta meta-gaming, so be warned,) you can get your Sneak skill up to whatever level you like quickly:

Go to Glimmermist Caverns (it's a quest given to you by the Companions), and have sneak... probably around 35-40, with a few perks in making it harder to detect you.

There's one of those blue whatever-they're-called things standing on a ledge a little in that cavern. It's very dark, and there's a lot of room to sneak around in front of him. You can sneak there to your heart's content, and if he doesn't see you the first time, he just won't see you.

If you really want to meta-game it, put yourself face-first square against a wall, and hit auto-walk while sneaking. You'll just walk against the wall for an infinite amount of time, and your sneak skill keeps going up. You can basically "macro" yourself to Sneak 100 this way.

Creston

Cutter wrote on Nov 11, 2011, 22:13:
Cres, wth did you get "Khajit Murderous Claw of Ruinous Death"? I want fist weaps for my cat!!!

It's under your powers section, in Magic. But it's obviously an always-on type dealie. Just don't equip a weapon, and be amazed at how much freaking damage you do. I was dual-wielding a shitty sword and a shitty dagger, tried the claws, and holy shit... I'm never going back to a wielded weapon.

I've seen some really neat stuff just riding around so far. Best is I came across a giant and a dragon having a fight. Giant killed the dragon pretty easily which I don't agree with. I don't like the giants - which aren't all that giant - are so uber and dragons are wusses by comparison.

It probably has to do with your level. Since Dragons can move all over Skyrim, they have to scale with the player, otherwise you'd walk around and wind up with some level 50 dragon ruining your entire game.

I'm betting that once you've leveled up, the dragon will tear that Giant a new one.

Creston

Just because it doesn't require a spreadsheet and 500 page manual doesn't mean it's dumbed down.

Sure it does dumbass, thats exactly what dumbed down means. Its basically geared toward the cry baby dipshits that nerfed World of Warcraft raiding to oblivion and couldnt handle playing something like Dark Souls on the consoles.

Hey PC guyZ! They just released a hack to fix the ambient occlusion! Hurry jump all over that!

But you're wrong... the perks system brings true character definition to TES. You only have like 70 per playthrough and there are 250 of them to choose from. At level 7 in the game I can tell you right now that you have to limit yourself pretty strongly.

If there is a level cap, then I guess you're right. Kinda. You can still max out all your skills, you just can't max out all your perks. Granted, the perks are pretty handy but they aren't essential. My Destruction skill is only level 20 and I'm already destroying enemies with my flamethrower. Bows seem a bit overpowered too, as I'm killing most enemies in one hit with the sneak shots and my archery is only level 30. This is on Expert difficulty, too.

Jerykk wrote on Nov 11, 2011, 23:11:
It's considered RPG Lite because you can max out all your skills in a single playthrough and you aren't forced to play any one role. You can be everything to everyone. By the time I finish playing, I suspect I'll be a thief-assassin-ranger-fighter-mage and the grandmaster of every guild.

But you're wrong... the perks system brings true character definition to TES. You only have like 70 per playthrough and there are 250 of them to choose from. At level 7 in the game I can tell you right now that you have to limit yourself pretty strongly.

And I don't know how the stories play out, but I am being asked to choose sides pretty often so far.

CJ, crawl back under your rock.

* REMOVED *
This comment was deleted on Nov 13, 2011, 12:04.

Indeed. There's just so much to do and explore around the world, I don't see how it can be considered "RPG Lite." Just because it doesn't require a spreadsheet and 500 page manual doesn't mean it's dumbed down.

It's considered RPG Lite because you can max out all your skills in a single playthrough and you aren't forced to play any one role. You can be everything to everyone. By the time I finish playing, I suspect I'll be a thief-assassin-ranger-fighter-mage and the grandmaster of every guild.

StingingVelvet wrote on Nov 11, 2011, 22:52:

Cutter wrote on Nov 11, 2011, 22:38:
They've really dumbed down the game for broader audience appeal unfortunately. The flavour is still great but this is very much RPG-lite.

How so? Compared to Morrowind or Baldur's Gate, sure, but compared to Oblivion or Fallout 3? No.

The perks mean actual character choice and defining. There are actually choices to make in the game now, with opposed factions and moral decisions. Also the two-hand mix system means more dynamic weapon choice and tactical options.

Compared to Oblivion this sucker is an 80's RPG where you have to draw maps.

Indeed. There's just so much to do and explore around the world, I don't see how it can be considered "RPG Lite." Just because it doesn't require a spreadsheet and 500 page manual doesn't mean it's dumbed down.

I've always preferred skill based systems, as opposed to standard level based systems, so I'm loving it. The UI may be a little dumbed down, I don't particularly like the inventory and vendor design, but the game and world itself are amazing.

Cutter wrote on Nov 11, 2011, 22:38:
They've really dumbed down the game for broader audience appeal unfortunately. The flavour is still great but this is very much RPG-lite.

How so? Compared to Morrowind or Baldur's Gate, sure, but compared to Oblivion or Fallout 3? No.

The perks mean actual character choice and defining. There are actually choices to make in the game now, with opposed factions and moral decisions. Also the two-hand mix system means more dynamic weapon choice and tactical options.

Compared to Oblivion this sucker is an 80's RPG where you have to draw maps.