id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms

Kotaku asks the musical question "Why Was The PC Launch of Rage Such A "Cluster!@#$"?," getting answers from id on the topic, who express frustration with problems that were largely caused by driver issues. Along the way they also address how the game being designed for consoles holds back the PC edition. "You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," John Carmack tells them. "We chose the latter." He also bluntly addresses why this makes sense for id (emphasis Kotaku's):
"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added. "That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version. A high end PC is nearly 10 times as powerful as a console, and we could unquestionably provide a better experience if we chose that as our design point and we were able to expend the same amount of resources on it. Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases."
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Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms
Oct 7, 2011, 21:39
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Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 7, 2011, 21:39
Oct 7, 2011, 21:39
 
Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on

Rage is a far cry from quality...

Avatar 50040
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Sucks
Oct 7, 2011, 21:40
Quboid
 
2.
Sucks Oct 7, 2011, 21:40
Oct 7, 2011, 21:40
 Quboid
 
This sucks, but as angry as I want to be, I know it's true. I still believe doing a good PC version will help make money, but evidently they didn't see it that way when they designed Rage.

It's all about making money. I fear designing with consoles in mind is the way to do that best
Avatar 10439
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Re: id On RAGE
Oct 7, 2011, 21:42
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Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 21:42
Oct 7, 2011, 21:42
 
The real funny thing is..... the game was developed ON the freaking PC. Well, all the spin in the world is not gonna deflect the fact that the PC end was infact a clusterfux. Hopefully, the developer will patch up the PC version to at least acceptable condition.
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Re: id On RAGE
Oct 7, 2011, 21:45
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Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 21:45
Oct 7, 2011, 21:45
 
Shataan wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 21:42:
The real funny thing is..... the game was developed ON the freaking PC. Well, all the spin in the world is not gonna deflect the fact that the PC end was infact a clusterfux. Hopefully, the developer will patch up the PC version to at least acceptable condition.
Oh don't worry. You just need to shovel the crap to the consoles and then polish the turd a bit, and they'll be happy with terrible UI's and no customization.
--
"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
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Re: Sucks
Oct 7, 2011, 21:46
5.
Re: Sucks Oct 7, 2011, 21:46
Oct 7, 2011, 21:46
 
Quboid wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 21:40:
It's all about making money. I fear designing with consoles in mind is the way to do that best

I think most reasonable people understand that already, the issue comes with the difficulty in explaining why a game like Deus Ex can give a good PC experience with all the bells and whistles you'd expect but RAGE can't.

Leading with another platform doesn't, or shouldn't, mean that what you wind up with on the PC is just a straight port with no consideration for the platform. The effort put into the development for the PC version is exactly the problem in the first place, not which technology it runs on.
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Re: id On RAGE
Oct 7, 2011, 21:51
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Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 21:51
Oct 7, 2011, 21:51
 
Good enough to put money in John's wallet apparently. If it's a good enough platform to release a product that you charge people money for then you should treat it as such and support it, end of fucking story.
Avatar 54452
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Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms
Oct 7, 2011, 21:59
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Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 7, 2011, 21:59
Oct 7, 2011, 21:59
 
As others here have said, Carmack's not wrong. Having paid attention to the warning signs (starting with Doom3), it makes me happy that I chose not to purchase Rage.
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Re: id On RAGE
Oct 7, 2011, 22:01
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Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:01
Oct 7, 2011, 22:01
 
Witcher 2 was PC exclusive and it managed to have the quality one can expect from any other AAA title.
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Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms
Oct 7, 2011, 22:02
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Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 7, 2011, 22:02
Oct 7, 2011, 22:02
 
So his bullshit of a few months back where he said, and I quote

"When we started on the game six years ago, I looked at the consoles and said ‘These are as good as the PCs that we're on here’, and our development strategy was set up such that we basically developed live on all the platforms there. And now when we’re looking at PCs that have ten times the horsepower of the consoles... I’m making a large change in my direction, just saying ‘We should be focusing on building things efficiently on the PC and [then] deploying on to consoles.’ And we didn’t make that as crisp of a distinction as we should have."

was exactly just that: FUCKING BULLSHIT.

Creston
Avatar 15604
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Re: id On RAGE
Oct 7, 2011, 22:04
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Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:04
Oct 7, 2011, 22:04
 
Doom and Quake were the only really great games id ever made, and even then they seemed better years ago when I didn't care as much about actual story or depth. AND even then D & Q were mainly a big deal because they pushed first-person computer gaming so far beyond where it had been before. With Quake 2 and Quake 3 they at least added some more color back into their games but they seem to have given up on that.

Doom is still their most fun game for me, it's not really focused on 'realism' (whatever that means in a fictional computer game world anyway), so you run around at 60 mph, carry 7 weapons at once, fight 300 things at a time, the levels don't really make any 'sense', etc. etc. etc.

Quake was true 3D but too brown and NIN-y, Quake 2 was okay but the levels generally somehow felt tiny, Quake 3 was fun for a little while, Doom 3 was plastic-y and dark and tried too hard to be scary, Rage, I dunno, I doubt I'll ever try it, I've already played Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas, Left 4 Dead, Left 4 Dead 2, other post-apocalyptic zombie/mutant games that I can't remember
Avatar 20985
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Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms
Oct 7, 2011, 22:07
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Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 7, 2011, 22:07
Oct 7, 2011, 22:07
 
It really puzzles me how this game could've been a cluster!@#$ release on PC, as I understand the issues were related to ATI cards only. Is the entire PC community running ATI nowadays?

Anyways, I've had a zero problems with Rage. On my 2500k box it runs a solid 60fps @2560x1600 on a measly GTX460 1GB. Only thing I hate about the engine is its streaming nature. Despite utilizing almost all my vram, it still grinds my HDD all the time when moving forward. Even if I take just one step forward on a cramped interior like the Subway Town, it trashes my hdd.

Where does it even need vram, if it streams everything straight off the disk?
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Re: id On RAGE
Oct 7, 2011, 22:09
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Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:09
Oct 7, 2011, 22:09
 
Im back to trying for a refund again as the new drivers today still did not fix the AMD 4000 series missing textures.

Edit: typo

This comment was edited on Oct 7, 2011, 22:50.
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Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms
Oct 7, 2011, 22:11
13.
Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 7, 2011, 22:11
Oct 7, 2011, 22:11
 
"We knew that all older AMD drivers, and some Nvidia drivers would have problems with the game, but we were running well in-house on all of our test systems."

What a bunch of fucking horseshit. I guess all your test-sytems then had NO driver on it that was available to the public at launch? Because nobody with an AMD card had a driver that actually just FUCKING WORKED. So what kind of driver did you have installed? One made with unicorn giggles and fucking fairy dust?

Four straight days of fighting with your shitty fucking console port just to try to get it to look the way it's supposed to and to run well. Yeah, it's all AMD's fault, Carmack.

Creston
Avatar 15604
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Re: id On RAGE
Oct 7, 2011, 22:12
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Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:12
Oct 7, 2011, 22:12
 
qsto wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:07:
It really puzzles me how this game could've been a cluster!@#$ release on PC, as I understand the issues were related to ATI cards only. Is the entire PC community running ATI nowadays?

Anyways, I've had a zero problems with Rage. On my 2500k box it runs a solid 60fps @2560x1600 on a measly GTX460 1GB. Only thing I hate about the engine is its streaming nature. Despite utilizing almost all my vram, it still grinds my HDD all the time when moving forward. Even if I take just one step forward on a cramped interior like the Subway Town, it trashes my hdd.

Where does it even need vram, if it streams everything straight off the disk?

Did you create the cache folder? You know, the one that Carmack's brilliant installer FORGOT to install?

I'm sure that's also just a driver fault, isn't it, John? I'm sure that on your test-boxes at id, the cache folder got installed just fine?

Creston
Avatar 15604
15.
 
Re: id On RAGE
Oct 7, 2011, 22:13
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Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:13
Oct 7, 2011, 22:13
 
Shrug... I'm still playing Rage and am really enjoying it.
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Re: id On RAGE
Oct 7, 2011, 22:16
16.
Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:16
Oct 7, 2011, 22:16
 
Creston wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:11:
"We knew that all older AMD drivers, and some Nvidia drivers would have problems with the game, but we were running well in-house on all of our test systems."

What a bunch of fucking horseshit. I guess all your test-sytems then had NO driver on it that was available to the public at launch? Because nobody with an AMD card had a driver that actually just FUCKING WORKED. So what kind of driver did you have installed? One made with unicorn giggles and fucking fairy dust?

Four straight days of fighting with your shitty fucking console port just to try to get it to look the way it's supposed to and to run well. Yeah, it's all AMD's fault, Carmack.

Creston

All your geniuses don't seem to understand reality. AMD gave id a driver. id tested the driver to see how it would work. Then AMD released the wrong driver to the public. Ingenious.
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Re: id On RAGE
Oct 7, 2011, 22:22
17.
Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:22
Oct 7, 2011, 22:22
 
Creston wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:12:
qsto wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:07:
It really puzzles me how this game could've been a cluster!@#$ release on PC, as I understand the issues were related to ATI cards only. Is the entire PC community running ATI nowadays?

Anyways, I've had a zero problems with Rage. On my 2500k box it runs a solid 60fps @2560x1600 on a measly GTX460 1GB. Only thing I hate about the engine is its streaming nature. Despite utilizing almost all my vram, it still grinds my HDD all the time when moving forward. Even if I take just one step forward on a cramped interior like the Subway Town, it trashes my hdd.

Where does it even need vram, if it streams everything straight off the disk?

Did you create the cache folder? You know, the one that Carmack's brilliant installer FORGOT to install?

Creston
Actually, yes I did. I usually tend to check forums for any useful tweaks before I start playing a new game.

My launch options are currently +cvaradd g_fov 20 +com_allowconsole 1 +com_skipIntroVideo 1 +fc_maxcachememoryMB 1024. But besides that, there's a shit ton of tweaks people are adding into their rageConfig.cfg. I tried some of them and my game practically stalled below 1fps. I've got 8GB of ram. Go figure...
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Re: id On RAGE
Oct 7, 2011, 22:30
18.
Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:30
Oct 7, 2011, 22:30
 
working well for me, but followed the instruction in the steam/rage forums on setting up a cfg file with notepad and saving it in the rage/base folder. game looks better and v hard to view texture pop in now. very enjoyable, and immersive game when it's not shitting the bed.
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Re: id On RAGE
Oct 7, 2011, 22:32
19.
Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:32
Oct 7, 2011, 22:32
 
RAGE sucks and no amount of driver issues is going to fix the fundamental GAME DESIGN PROBLEMS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GRAPHICS.

If RAGE is any indication, John Carmack and id can just go over exclusively to the console market and PC gamers will not be worse off. Let's just face reality: After years of development id's newest game is so full of terrible design decisions that graphics issues are just the icing on the shit cake.

But I have to give props to Carmack for being so honest about id's failure so soon after the game is released, of course he can only talk about the graphical failures not the game design failures, they are not his fault.
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Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms
Oct 7, 2011, 22:34
20.
Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 7, 2011, 22:34
Oct 7, 2011, 22:34
 
Why not make the PC the leading platform - isn't it easier to DUMB DOWN the game than to make it better after it is so shitty for a console?

Makes no sense. Wish I had never bought it.

I won't buy anymore of their games after his statements.
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