^Drag0n^ wrote on Aug 14, 2011, 13:10:
My remark was aimed squarely at those that voice contempt for Valve (and Steam), claiming that they are killing the market

So just Razorclaw, then?

So how did you guys let this thread roll on for so long letting people pretend that Steamworks requires periodic logins?

It works just like Steam... You login in once, you have offline mode, you don't ever need to log back in.

Am I missing something here?

I do NOT endorse pirating games for profit or cheap loser that can't even earn the price of a game - they are reason we have shit like Steam to deal with in the first place!

I'm pretty sure Steam exists for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with piracy. For one, the PC retail market has been steadily decreasing since 2000 and Valve saw that as an opportunity to capitalize on the growth of broadband. Steam also offers a standardized platform through which to offer things like installers, achievements, cloud saving, customer service, patches, DLC, player statistics, etc. Steam also makes it easy to prevent used sales.

Like you, I prefer physical copies of games and I don't like DRM in any form. However, Steam offers benefits to customers that help offset the limitations imposed by DRM. The fact that so many people actually want games to use Steamworks is a testament to this.

Rockn-Roll wrote on Aug 13, 2011, 12:34:
Some posts indicate that they can't remember their Steam login. How do they remember their bluesnews login? Why don't they just set up Steam to remember their login?

Easy, I visit bluesnews almost daily, I've not touched steam since HL2, my machine has been re-installed a couple of times since then and I've never had a reason to install Steam. That's why can't remember the password or account name for it.

Rockn-Roll wrote on Aug 13, 2011, 12:34:
One post indicates that they hate Steam so much they will buy the retail game and then never install it...and wait until they get the pirated version and claim that the illegal version is easier to install and play...what? To be honest I wouldn't know where to start to even find a pirated copy of a game.

I'm not proud of it but I do and it really is easy, first time was to play Portal under Linux(played great too), since Valve have never bothered releasing a steam client for Linux and haven't helped the people working on Wine make it work correctly ( at that time at least ). So yes I have a few retail boxes sitting on my shelf that have never had the seal broken on the discs. It's completely crazy that I pre-ordered the original Crysis, then downloaded, install, completed before my sodding pre-order actually arrived! so much for USA getting games first and UK having to wait.

Steam still sounds like a waste of disc space, memory and cpu cycles to me. It gives my nothing I actually want. I know a lot of people are happy to buy and download games via steam and good luck to them but it's not something I like.
I'll buy at retail ( well Amazon probably ) and have a box with discs.
I guarantee there will be a pirate version that is simple to just unzip and run without steam.
I do NOT endorse pirating games for profit or cheap loser that can't even earn the price of a game - they are reason we have shit like Steam to deal with in the first place!

Beamer wrote on Aug 14, 2011, 13:12:

Razorclaw wrote on Aug 14, 2011, 05:10:
valve is pretty much a console developer first these days anyway. steam is a xbox360 for pc, and all the games on there are locked behind a subscription idiotspeak term of service, all their games have overly simplistic instant gratification console style design and are also primarily made with console controllers in mind since left4dead or so. the new counterstrike is a console game, what else do you need to know. seriously the new fucking COUNTERSTRIKE.

Do people stop and think before they post in these topics, or do they just get angry and say things that make absolutely no sense?

I'm assuming that's rhetorical

^D^

Razorclaw wrote on Aug 14, 2011, 05:10:
valve is pretty much a console developer first these days anyway. steam is a xbox360 for pc, and all the games on there are locked behind a subscription idiotspeak term of service, all their games have overly simplistic instant gratification console style design and are also primarily made with console controllers in mind since left4dead or so. the new counterstrike is a console game, what else do you need to know. seriously the new fucking COUNTERSTRIKE.

Do people stop and think before they post in these topics, or do they just get angry and say things that make absolutely no sense?

everyone wrote on Aug 14, 2011, 07:31:

^Drag0n^ wrote on Aug 14, 2011, 03:24:
For the life of me, I will never understand the rampant "Valve-hate," some have around here. If any company deserved credit for being squarely in the corner of PC gaming, it's Valve. I could go on a rant about this, but I'll leave it at this: Do you really think PC gaming would be better off if Valve never existed? SERIOUSLY?

Since when did disliking Steam equate to "Valve-hate"? I've personally got nothing against Steam itself, I just don't want to use it. Why should I be forced to run extra software that provides zero benefits (to me), and plenty of unnecessary annoyance? Valve don't factor into the equation.

Not aimed at you. I agree that in general, DRM is a PITA, but there will always be a line that developers that make the game, and the public that consumes it, will be pressing. DRM, like a lock, will never keep the professional thieves from copying and distributing a game. It's intent is to "keep honest people honest."

Personally, I feel that Steam's methods give the greatest flexibility, along with nice free sides (organized screencaps/moviemaking, uncensored peer reviews, etc.)

My remark was aimed squarely at those that voice contempt for Valve (and Steam), claiming that they are killing the market, then in the next breath bitch about how PC games are going to hell in a handbasket.

As I stated above, that's probably not the camp you're in, and as thus, my remarks should have little meaning to you.

^D^

^Drag0n^ wrote on Aug 14, 2011, 03:24:
For the life of me, I will never understand the rampant "Valve-hate," some have around here. If any company deserved credit for being squarely in the corner of PC gaming, it's Valve. I could go on a rant about this, but I'll leave it at this: Do you really think PC gaming would be better off if Valve never existed? SERIOUSLY?

Since when did disliking Steam equate to "Valve-hate"? I've personally got nothing against Steam itself, I just don't want to use it. Why should I be forced to run extra software that provides zero benefits (to me), and plenty of unnecessary annoyance? Valve don't factor into the equation.

Ah I see. So the studio that has given us unrivaled freedom of access to it's engine(s) and authoring tools, draws employees from the mod community, released no fewer than 3 of the most influential titles in the last decade, and provides an organized community with a marketplace that allows you to use their products regardless of whether or not you have connection to the Internet is bad for the PC? I have news for you, friend...had Valve not been around, you'd be lapping up the scraps of gaming meat EA and Activation gave you from the stick controller of a 360 or PS3. How soon we forget just how much EA and Activision wanted the PC dead. Now, thanks to transaction and business models that Valve pioneered, that just won't happen.

Your assertion that "Valve is bad for the PC, and we'd be better off had they never existed," makes as much sense as saying shooters would have been better if John Carmack chose to drive busses rather than programming 3D engines.

Is it perfect? no. But it sure isn't the foul pile of offal you make it out to be either.

IMO.

^D^

This comment was edited on Aug 14, 2011, 05:34.

^Drag0n^ wrote on Aug 14, 2011, 03:24:
Do you really think PC gaming would be better off if Valve never existed? SERIOUSLY?

yes, I KNOW pc gaming would be better off if valve, gfwl, ubidrm and this kind of anti-consumer trash never existed. big publishers should just stick to being console only if they have to resort to these kinds of locked off semi-console systems for pc releases.

valve is pretty much a console developer first these days anyway. steam is a xbox360 for pc, and all the games on there are locked behind a subscription idiotspeak term of service, all their games have overly simplistic instant gratification console style design and are also primarily made with console controllers in mind since left4dead or so. the new counterstrike is a console game, what else do you need to know. seriously the new fucking COUNTERSTRIKE.

For the life of me, I will never understand the rampant "Valve-hate," some have around here. If any company deserved credit for being squarely in the corner of PC gaming, it's Valve. I could go on a rant about this, but I'll leave it at this: Do you really think PC gaming would be better off if Valve never existed? SERIOUSLY?

Also, to the person that was complaining about having to move all-or-nothing with the games in the Steam folder...I'd suggest you do a Google search for SteamMover. Godsend for those with huge Steam libraries (mine is in the high double digits).

SteamMover

^D^

This comment was edited on Aug 14, 2011, 03:40.

Jerykk wrote on Aug 13, 2011, 19:49:
Securom is definitely not the worst DRM scheme. Starforce, TAGES and UbiDRM are all much worse. The best DRM scheme would be a rudimentary disc check, like the ones that games used to use in the 90's. Of the modern crop of DRM schemes, I do agree that Steam is the best, though, since it offers many benefits to offset the inherent inconvenience of its DRM.

Those benefits of course being subjective. I actually resent having to load the damn thing for singleplayer games and auto-patching is a bad thing for me, not a good thing.

Of all internet DRM methods I would say anything unlimited with no client required is my favorite. Direct2Drive would be a good example, as would Origin since they don't force you to run the client.

Some posts in here complain about Steam requiring an internet connection but they don't have one. If they don't have an internet connection then how are they posting in this forum?

There are a lot of legitimate reasons why requiring a persistent online connection is problematic. If a person travels a lot, they won't always have access to the internet. If someone lives in a more rural area and has an unreliable ISP, they won't always have access to the internet. If someone has bandwidth caps, they'll want to minimize unnecessary access to the internet.

Luckily, Steam doesn't require a persistent online connection, unlike UbiDRM.

I've had to use almost every DRM that has come out. SecureROM was the worst with limited # of installs and registry hacks that sometimes permanently damage a computer system. But Steam is the best...unlimited installs from anywhere, an offline mode that let's you be away from the internet, and installs from backups so you don't have to download again are just a couple of benefits.

Securom is definitely not the worst DRM scheme. Starforce, TAGES and UbiDRM are all much worse. The best DRM scheme would be a rudimentary disc check, like the ones that games used to use in the 90's. Of the modern crop of DRM schemes, I do agree that Steam is the best, though, since it offers many benefits to offset the inherent inconvenience of its DRM.

Rockn-Roll wrote on Aug 13, 2011, 12:34:

To be honest I wouldn't know where to start to even find a pirated copy of a game which makes it nearly impossible to install or play...

which proves a point I've made before that only the hackers/pirates hate Steam. To top that off...it was the stupid hackers/pirates that caused DRM to be necessary to begin with! Sorry, but hackers/pirates that complain about DRM just proves that they are stupid because it's their fault we have it.

Dude if you can't find a torrent, or anything pirated, like music and so on, you should stick to console gaming. Blaming Pirates that caused DRM is dumb, has no freaking protection has slowed down piracy, and only the suits think its useful !!! The only thing DRM does is pissing off legitimate customers. I love Id Software, I always bought their games, since Wolf3d. its the first time I don't think i'll buy their product! (I hate coop multiplayer BTW) so it makes no sense to me that a single player game should force me to be online to play it!!!

Another concern is my steam folder is 282gig, I always keep a backup of all my games, moving a huge folder like steam is long and tedious!!! now I need to order another 2.5TB HD because the one I had just died ! lucky me it was not the one with the 282gig steam folder !!!

God dang . I was going to buy this. Not anymore.

Rockn-Roll wrote on Aug 13, 2011, 12:34:
Well...there was a post in the Bethesda forums on this like at the beginning of the year, but I guess very few gamers actually checked.

Invalid Steam hate has increased:

Some posts in here complain about Steam requiring an internet connection but they don't have one. If they don't have an internet connection then how are they posting in this forum?

Some posts don't even know about the game itself as evidenced by their not knowing if RAGE has multiplayer.

Some posts indicate that they can't remember their Steam login. How do they remember their bluesnews login? Why don't they just set up Steam to remember their login?

One post indicates that they hate Steam so much they will buy the retail game and then never install it...and wait until they get the pirated version and claim that the illegal version is easier to install and play...what? To be honest I wouldn't know where to start to even find a pirated copy of a game which makes it nearly impossible to install or play...which proves a point I've made before that only the hackers/pirates hate Steam. To top that off...it was the stupid hackers/pirates that caused DRM to be necessary to begin with! Sorry, but hackers/pirates that complain about DRM just proves that they are stupid because it's their fault we have it.

I've had to use almost every DRM that has come out. SecureROM was the worst with limited # of installs and registry hacks that sometimes permanently damage a computer system. But Steam is the best...unlimited installs from anywhere, an offline mode that let's you be away from the internet, and installs from backups so you don't have to download again are just a couple of benefits.

However, these posts bring up one important benefit of distributing a game using Steam DRM...most of the active Steam users are not hackers/pirates because that class of gamer seems to hate Steam so much they avoid it like a plague. So, that makes Steam DRM more effective as it keeps the honest gamers honest.

no surprise this drivel is spewing out of a tf2 avatar. nice work

Well...there was a post in the Bethesda forums on this like at the beginning of the year, but I guess very few gamers actually checked.

Invalid Steam hate has increased:

Some posts in here complain about Steam requiring an internet connection but they don't have one. If they don't have an internet connection then how are they posting in this forum?

Some posts don't even know about the game itself as evidenced by their not knowing if RAGE has multiplayer.

Some posts indicate that they can't remember their Steam login. How do they remember their bluesnews login? Why don't they just set up Steam to remember their login?

One post indicates that they hate Steam so much they will buy the retail game and then never install it...and wait until they get the pirated version and claim that the illegal version is easier to install and play...what? To be honest I wouldn't know where to start to even find a pirated copy of a game which makes it nearly impossible to install or play...which proves a point I've made before that only the hackers/pirates hate Steam. To top that off...it was the stupid hackers/pirates that caused DRM to be necessary to begin with! Sorry, but hackers/pirates that complain about DRM just proves that they are stupid because it's their fault we have it.

I've had to use almost every DRM that has come out. SecureROM was the worst with limited # of installs and registry hacks that sometimes permanently damage a computer system. But Steam is the best...unlimited installs from anywhere, an offline mode that let's you be away from the internet, and installs from backups so you don't have to download again are just a couple of benefits.

However, these posts bring up one important benefit of distributing a game using Steam DRM...most of the active Steam users are not hackers/pirates because that class of gamer seems to hate Steam so much they avoid it like a plague. So, that makes Steam DRM more effective as it keeps the honest gamers honest.

PropheT wrote on Aug 13, 2011, 11:50:
Why would you call Steam a malware client when you clearly have no idea what it does or how it even works?

I can answer that for him; because it's poorly made and a piece of shit program

finga wrote on Aug 13, 2011, 04:18:

Jerykk wrote on Aug 12, 2011, 23:57:
Why do Steam users have to periodically log in?

I'm guessing this is intended to be a rhetorical question, but let's play along anyway.

It's so that your buddy can't borrow your login info, jump on, download all the games you bought, and then play them forever without logging in ever again (while you also have access to them, too). Sure, it'd be a nice freedom to have from the player's perspective, but Steam was built on getting publishers to trust them, and offering absolutely no protection from piracy was not a good way to do it.

At some point, I do think they should go back and look at this policy, especially considering that they're the dominant force in PC digital distribution. 'Course, I also think they have the power now to refuse any game using outside DRM in the future, whether it's GFWL, Starforce, or anything else.

Is that really true, or is that what you think is going on? Because I had my laptop running Steam offline for like a year, and it ran fine without issues...?

Creston

Crustacean Soup wrote on Aug 13, 2011, 03:56:

entr0py wrote on Aug 13, 2011, 00:26:
I don't know, I don't think there's a good reason for it once you've already registered your game. I guess to make sure you're not thieving. When the steam client hasn't been updated recently enough it will shut you down from playing anything.

I just came across an Offline Mode failure. No internet access in my new place. Okay, that's fine, I'll just play some Tropico...

Steam: Would you like to use offline mode?
Me: Yes.
Steam: Operation can't be completed in offline mode. *terminates*
Me: ????

I'm thinking it's because it downloaded an update but didn't apply it, since it does that when you start it up. Apparently it won't when it's offline though. Bah. A better error message would have been nice.

I saw that issue too a few days ago. It seemed to go away after a little while for whatever reason, but it was definitely annoying. I think the last update may have fucked something up in the offline mode.

Creston