Nxs wrote on Nov 11, 2010, 19:20:

Verno wrote on Nov 11, 2010, 18:35:

It makes no sense to me why everyone seems to be defending steam/steamworks.

Err, why do we have pick sides? Seems kinda childish. I use Steam but I'm well aware of the potential consequences it poses to the industry. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of alternative for consumer choice right now. The PC platform would be in terrible shape without it and it does implement features that consumers want so in the end you take the good with the bad and hope for better in the future.

Please by all means, feel free to design your own Steam clone with published APIs and open systems. Then somehow manage to convince the industry that your central ownership and management of it is in their best interests while they scream and howl about DRM and whatnot. I'll be your first customer even. Until that time though, we work with what we have.

I am not asking anyone to take sides! If you like steam that is fine. I just happen to think it sucks. Maybe you misread or I did not post as plainly as I should have.

I see no need to design some other version of steam or battlenet. Again, all that needs to happen is that publishers realize that there is no reason for this dumbass DRM. It all boils down to that they are scared shitless about piracy. I know, I have said before, however, it still rings true. Once publishers realize there is not one damn thing they can do to stop it, they will stop making the same shit over and over again and actually make the customers that pay for the game happy.

Until then, steam is going to be a closed off monopoly just like live, PSN, Apple, etc.

You may think this is fine and dandy but, I have been playing games for more than 20 years on everything they have been on. Steam and everything like it sucks! Period!

I've been playing games for almost 30 years now. I remember DRM from when I was a wee kiddy with my Sinclair Spectrum. Little colour-coded sheets and requests for words from my manual. All things considered, I find Steam to not be intrusive or frustrating for me at all. Compared to the various DRM that I have experienced over the years, I find Steam to be a breeze; a breath of fresh air.

Period

I hate getting in on a 100+ post thread late, cause I fear what I say may just be parroting what someone else has written. But from what I have seen from skimming over the posts in this thread, I tend to agree with the majority sentiment of:

"Cry me a fuckin' river."

Everyone - EVERYONE - was calling the PC dead before Steam came along. Once Valve whipped Steam up into shape, I can confidently say that if it didn't single-handedly save it, PC gaming was surely helped the most by far by Valve's revolutionary model. I can see the gripe with Steamworks being so closely integrated with the Steam digital distribution platform (in effect, it is one in the same), but that can be fixed easily. I am reminded when I bought Metro 2033 via Direct2Drive and it installed into Steam. Does this hurt D2D's business? The customer doesn't see Steam until after the purchase is made, so D2D gets their money, but it IS admittedly giving Valve free exposure and advertising for future purchases, going so far as giving them the storefront and platform on which to run the game in the process. So yeah, I can see it hurting other DD sites down the road.

Aside from that, I don't really care much about how butthurt the other guys are getting over the fact that Steam is eating their lunch (and supper too). I would tend to think that one of the "big name publishers" that goes unnamed in the story is not Stardock simply because Brad Wardell has generally always attached his name to press releases of this nature in the past. My guess is Gamersgate and D2D; maybe even GFWL. (I would love to know if that last were the case - Microsoft complaining that Valve is killing PC gaming - oh the delicious irony!!)

As far as retailers go, I hope that they get out of the PC market entirely, since they treated PC gamers like shit for a decade. I almost never buy retail anymore anyway, and I wouldn't shed a tear to see all PC gaming go download only. Screw retail - they made their bed - now they can lie in it (and atrophy for all I care).

This comment was edited on Nov 11, 2010, 20:18.

I'm sorry, but Amazon isn't an alternative for me. I don't live in the US or Europe and any game shipping from Amazon to Barbados is going to cost me at least half again the cost of the game in shipping(and that's being conservative).

There is a huge 'rest of the world' out there that very much appreciates what Steam has to offer.

The only people that Steam are making unhappy right now as I see it, are people on forums like this who are raging against the fact that they have to deal with DRM(however mild), can't resell or regift their games and worry over what will happen when Valve inevitably closes its doors and shuts down access to all their games.

Unfortunately, that is probably a very small minority. I have better things to do than worry about what things might be like if Steam didn't exist and there was a handy and less expensive way for me to get games. I buy the games I want on Steam or Impulse because I want to play them.

Everyone is free to vote with their wallets. And it is plain to see where people are casting their votes. Lamenting how you've been gaming for 20 years(and so have I btw) and cursing all things digitally distributed, won't change jack shit.

I am not asking anyone to take sides! If you like steam that is fine. I just happen to think it sucks. Maybe you misread or I did not post as plainly as I should have.

It seemed like it to me. You quite clearly asked "why are people defending it?" as if we need to pick a side or something. I'm not defending Steam for example, I'm just explaining my usage scenario for it which I suspect is pretty close to most other people who do as well. People don't need to boycott Steam to be displeased with it but like other things it offers. Opinions don't have to be all or nothing like some schoolyard argument.

You may think this is fine and dandy but, I have been playing games for more than 20 years on everything they have been on. Steam and everything like it sucks! Period!

Sorry that's not how the world works.

bawaga wrote on Nov 11, 2010, 18:40:
So why don't retailers create their own d/l to drive websites like steam to compete?.... If you cant beat them, join them.

They did, you can download games from gamestop and amazon now. I dunno why you'd want to, but feel free. On gamestop its same price, but few if any of the benifits of steam from what I can tell.
http://www.gamestop.com/stores/gs_download_about.aspx
It doesn't say how many computers, doesn't say how long in the future you can download, doesn't say if they have their own achivements, etc etc.

Steam saved PC gaming. If this fuck doesn't like it he can cry to the unemployment line.

Verno wrote on Nov 11, 2010, 18:35:

It makes no sense to me why everyone seems to be defending steam/steamworks.

Err, why do we have pick sides? Seems kinda childish. I use Steam but I'm well aware of the potential consequences it poses to the industry. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of alternative for consumer choice right now. The PC platform would be in terrible shape without it and it does implement features that consumers want so in the end you take the good with the bad and hope for better in the future.

Please by all means, feel free to design your own Steam clone with published APIs and open systems. Then somehow manage to convince the industry that your central ownership and management of it is in their best interests while they scream and howl about DRM and whatnot. I'll be your first customer even. Until that time though, we work with what we have.

I am not asking anyone to take sides! If you like steam that is fine. I just happen to think it sucks. Maybe you misread or I did not post as plainly as I should have.

I see no need to design some other version of steam or battlenet. Again, all that needs to happen is that publishers realize that there is no reason for this dumbass DRM. It all boils down to that they are scared shitless about piracy. I know, I have said before, however, it still rings true. Once publishers realize there is not one damn thing they can do to stop it, they will stop making the same shit over and over again and actually make the customers that pay for the game happy.

Until then, steam is going to be a closed off monopoly just like live, PSN, Apple, etc.

You may think this is fine and dandy but, I have been playing games for more than 20 years on everything they have been on. Steam and everything like it sucks! Period!

bawaga wrote on Nov 11, 2010, 18:40:
So why don't retailers create their own d/l to drive websites like steam to compete?.... If you cant beat them, join them. send ninjas

FTFY

Steam really should dumb down their service so it's not so hard on the little guys. All those features make it too hard for them to even have a chance.

Gamestop moved the PC section next to the furnace long before Steam had the dominance it has now. Those companies could have at least TRIED to see how the PC market was moving and make adjustments or build their own digital distro infrastructure but they didn't so they LOSE.

This comment was edited on Nov 11, 2010, 18:55.

Well I do like what Steam has to offer, but I don't like the influence they gain. A monopoly has never been good, not for their partners (publishers) nor the customers (us). Imho it is Microsoft's fault that Steam could gain such a power.

Take away their MP Support, the achievments and the automated patching and they remain a service as any other. And who should be responsible to offer all those mentioned additional services? The OS developer, yes, that is YOU Microsoft. But those brain dead people had to abandon the PC Gamers and leave the field untouched for any third party.

I don't want each other shop to compete with their own system of clients, that would be hell. Nope, strictly seperate the stuff from any shop (including Microsoft's own distribution channels) and let them compete by price.

So why don't retailers create their own d/l to drive websites like steam to compete?.... If you cant beat them, join them.

It makes no sense to me why everyone seems to be defending steam/steamworks.

Err, why do we have pick sides? Seems kinda childish. I use Steam but I'm well aware of the potential consequences it poses to the industry. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of alternative for consumer choice right now. The PC platform would be in terrible shape without it and it does implement features that consumers want so in the end you take the good with the bad and hope for better in the future.

Please by all means, feel free to design your own Steam clone with published APIs and open systems. Then somehow manage to convince the industry that your central ownership and management of it is in their best interests while they scream and howl about DRM and whatnot. I'll be your first customer even. Until that time though, we work with what we have.

You would have to be an idiot not to like steam

"Valve monopoly is killing PC market," reports they understand "that at least two big-name digital retailers are facing financial difficulties as they struggle to compete" with Steam. "I've fought hard for my customer, and never before have I had to give my customers away. Steam is killing the PC market and it is no wonder digital retailers are failing," says the director of a Steam rival.

In other words: Get off my lawn!

DrEvil wrote on Nov 11, 2010, 17:51:

Nxs wrote on Nov 11, 2010, 16:41:

Nxs wrote on Nov 11, 2010, 12:22:
Wrong! What is really driving people to steam? You can't play a damn PC game without it! IN other words, you have no choice but to play almost any PC game on steam no matter where you bought it.

Almost any game? What? Nonsense, plenty of games don't use steam. You are talking full steamworks games which are a minority, not a majority. Just because you can buy it on steam and use it on steam, doesn't mean steam is required if you buy a retail copy.

It does if that retail copy uses steamworks DRM, which a lot of retail copies do.

While there are some titles soled on Steam and also sold in the store without steam, those seem far less common than the "steam-only" variety.

Yes, I really do understand the difference. The problem is, I don't care! I do not want a third party installed on my computer to play a game I just paid for!

It makes no sense to me why everyone seems to be defending steam/steamworks.

We have all been through this before! Piracy will continue to happen no matter what anyone does. It is a fact! Punishing legit customers because you are afraid piracy will hurt your bottom line is just insane!

I understand that devs and publishers want to protect their property and they have every right to. I just don't think steam, steamworks, battlenet, or any other DRM like that is justified.

If I was a rich man, I would bet a million dollars that if you gave people a choice between a game that requires steam or steamworks or just a simple CD code, my money would go with the CD code.

Steam sucks monkey balls! That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

Nxs wrote on Nov 11, 2010, 16:41:

Nxs wrote on Nov 11, 2010, 12:22:
Wrong! What is really driving people to steam? You can't play a damn PC game without it! IN other words, you have no choice but to play almost any PC game on steam no matter where you bought it.

Almost any game? What? Nonsense, plenty of games don't use steam. You are talking full steamworks games which are a minority, not a majority. Just because you can buy it on steam and use it on steam, doesn't mean steam is required if you buy a retail copy.

It does if that retail copy uses steamworks DRM, which a lot of retail copies do.

While there are some titles soled on Steam and also sold in the store without steam, those seem far less common than the "steam-only" variety.

When things work well, people whine that your a monopoly. I prefer steam over anything else because when my hard drive goes tits up, I dont have to dig up my disks or my piece of paper from my direct to drive buy.

Dev wrote on Nov 11, 2010, 16:12:
I did a line # count on the list and it was 226. Isn't that every country in the world? Of course maybe there are dupes on the list, but I'm not going to take the time to figure out how many there are.

Huh, alright, I stand corrected. I may have gotten confused with gogamer or something. I thought Amazon only shipped to the US. My bad.

Creston

Dev wrote on Nov 11, 2010, 16:56:
Nxs:
I see from the reply coding when I tried a reply you lost the open quote there, you have the close but not open
I tried posting it here in a bluesnews "code" option, but it interprets it inside that too.




Ooops! Sorry about that Dev.