Dev wrote on Sep 30, 2010, 11:01:
That being the case, it all ends up being a matter of faith. Either faith in some sort of eternal Creator, or faith that matter itself is eternal (the big bang had to come from somewhere, where did that come from, ad nauseum).

Its only a matter of faith for people who cannot accept the fact that they do not know. They cant accept an unknown, or a mystery - they have to fill that empty space with some idea (usually anthropomorphic, or based on reference to a known quantity/entity). People who simply assume their personal ideas actually explain everything are all over the place, they arent just religious people. Plenty of them are fundamentalists in the theory of general relativity, or any other field of science.

Living with mystery is uncomfortable for most people in general, its too close to being constantly reminded of the possibility of death.

Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night.

Since one cannot directly prove (using scientific method which relies on repeatable experiments and observations) how the creation of the universe happened, its a little hard to disprove or prove a hypothetical Creator's existence directly.

Indirect evidence can generally be interpreted to support either argument (such as fossil ordering from single cell to more complex, one could argue thats evidence of evolution from simple to complex, or one could argue the flood sorted the smaller organisms to the bottom like a bag of chips as they fossilized).

That being the case, it all ends up being a matter of faith. Either faith in some sort of eternal Creator, or faith that matter itself is eternal (the big bang had to come from somewhere, where did that come from, ad nauseum).

justice7 wrote on Sep 30, 2010, 09:27:
there are far too many armchair know-it-alls on the internet. Discussions on religion always turn into name-calling tirades of nobody knowing a damn thing about anything.

Until you can explain the big questions, you can't understand the small ones.

Think of religion as Science Fiction, and you'll start to grasp what it was I was discussing in an earlier topic.

Some science fiction becomes science, eventually.

That's amusing because one could infer that "God" will eventually be a man made invention. The irony is delicious.

there are far too many armchair know-it-alls on the internet. Discussions on religion always turn into name-calling tirades of nobody knowing a damn thing about anything.

Until you can explain the big questions, you can't understand the small ones.

Think of religion as Science Fiction, and you'll start to grasp what it was I was discussing in an earlier topic.

Some science fiction becomes science, eventually.

consult the tetractys

I believe we're all living in an elaborate, highly complex, and believable computer simulation meant to keep our minds occupied while beings unknown in the actual reality harness our bodies' thermal and electrical energy.

There is no spoon

This is my point - people are arguing over some ridiculous idea of a "cosmic vending machine" or that the world is only 7000 years old or some other kind of ridiculous bullshit. And while some people are stupid enough to believe this, others are stupid enough to mount arguments against it as if they are being "logical". Yeh, ok.

All of that really has nothing to do with the reason people write scriptures in the first place. This goes for any religion or tradition. For the vast majority of the public, there is a total disconnect with the reality of internal practice - and instead people look for literalism in myths and basically anything else to justify their own personal and societal neurosis. Or they use it as a means of political and economic control, by manipulating a group through their identification with some idea.

It works both ways - the arguments for or against religion are almost always about the personal issues motivating the argument.. it has nothing to do with an attempt to understand the codification of spiritual knowledge, or what that knowledge is, or the reason for doing it in the first place.

Everyone is blind to their identification with a particular idea or name or group. They ignore that they identify with it, because otherwise they couldn't fully invest themselves in whatever limited idea it is. Ignorance is the mechanism of the process for limiting the sense of being, by saying "I am" a "christian", or an "atheist", or a "scientist", or a "good guy", etc. etc. etc. To become aware of the process of identification is a kind of freedom from ignorance, and to remain in this awareness is a tangibly different life than being driven by motivations which originate from whichever group or idea you identify with, rather than within yourself.

And thats just one of many issues plaguing the unexamined life.

But it doesnt matter, because its all psychobabble bullshit, right? HAHAHA, yeh its not your problem. You've got it under control.

Know thyself

I'm here to tell both parties you know SQUAT. A grain of sand in all the beaches of the earth. Let's start by conceding to our lack of knowledge and understanding, rather than being armchair experts on subjects humanity itself has no clue about.

Speaking of red herrings... What does knowledge and understanding of the universe have to do with the subject at hand? If you want to talk about being able to prove or disprove the existence of a "God", yes, it's impossible to disprove anything that isn't logically impossible. But it's impossible to disprove any idea that someone may think up. The whole existence of the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" meme was to illustrate that point. You cannot definitively prove that there isn't an invisible pink unicorn standing behind you, but if I said that there was one, I'd seriously hope you'd consider me mad.

In the same vein, if someone wants to imagine an invisible super-being, who somehow takes a personal interest in their lives and will alter the state of the universe based on their "prayers", well, yes, I can't disprove the existence of said being, but unless they have some evidence to back that belief up, then I'm going to consider them somewhat mentally unbalanced.

With that being said, I personally have no issues with this game whatsoever, if people who believe in the Christian (well, Jewish if you're talking Genesis ;)) God want to have a game set in their mythology, whyever not? No one is being forced to play it, so I can't see any problem.

Cutter wrote on Sep 29, 2010, 14:02:
Grifter, you seriously need to start learning about actual history. Your ignorance is really telling. And yes, to everything you mentioned religion was a major part, or thee major part of everything you mentioned. Your actual level of practical knowledge on this subject, coupled with your atrocious grammatical skills peg you at about a 6th grade education. Rely on your brain, not god, mmmkay?

And I've never played any of those games you mention save DOOM, and those were extra-dimensional creatures, not demons from hell. And again, those games aren't about indoctrinating anyone, this one is. Jesus, man, learn to think critically if you can.

its easy to insult someone, but do you have any real argument to counter my argument. I gave examples of why i thought your argument was unsound.

But your rebuttal is just insults.

Did I touch a nerve, Did I get under your skin?

I am sorry but I thought we were having an adult conversation but, I guess I was wrong.

If religion was a major part of what I just said then please enlighten my ignorance, since you seem to be the authority on the subject.

Oh and about doom read this http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Demon and http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Hell

This comment was edited on Sep 29, 2010, 14:37.

Beamer wrote on Sep 29, 2010, 06:52:
All the crusades nonsense is red herring at best. You can't complain about something hundreds of years old. Jesus, the stuff our country has done far more recently isn't terribly different.

It's part of a pattern played down through history to this day.

But to say people dislike religion because they don't want to be judged is insane.
People dislike things absolutely adored despite there being no proof. And people dislike intolerance for other thought.

Which is ironic, because the lack of religion has become pure religion to most of them. Things can't be proven true, but typically also can't be proven false.

That's a patently ridiculous statement. First off we have various means of establishing the validity of something anywhere from the Socratic method to scientific hypothesis. Second, the burden of proof is always on the claimant. Third, how you prove a negative? That sort of circular reasoning is juvenile and ludicrous at best. For any person of sufficient intelligence and education all signs point to 'No Virginia, there is no Santa Claus, or God either.'

Nor did anyone contend by point about the man who earnestly believes in Santa, or the brainwashing of children into these cults.

It reminds me one time about 10 years back of a buddy's mom who had a dream where an angel told her she was going to win the lottery that week. So she went out dropped $1000 on tickets - I shit you not - and out of that she won about $20 and a few free tickets. So was that god at work, delusional behaviour, or probability?

Grifter, you seriously need to start learning about actual history. Your ignorance is really telling. And yes, to everything you mentioned religion was a major part, or thee major part of everything you mentioned. Your actual level of practical knowledge on this subject, coupled with your atrocious grammatical skills peg you at about a 6th grade education. Rely on your brain, not god, mmmkay?

And I've never played any of those games you mention save DOOM, and those were extra-dimensional creatures, not demons from hell. And again, those games aren't about indoctrinating anyone, this one is. Jesus, man, learn to think critically if you can.

InBlack wrote on Sep 29, 2010, 10:47:
Religion is a dying. Its decline started with the first Greek philosophers. Sure there were a couple of dark ages along the way, when progress was lost and religion became a tool of the powerfull elite....but still.

No one here can deny that its power is waning. The rise of fanatacism in the east (and recently in the west) are just the dying throes of a mortally wounded beast.

Short of a full blown nuclear war that wipes away most humanity from the face of the planet there is nothing that can stop this fact.

Nothing other than God...but so far he has done little to prove his existence....

Nor would he need to. Have you seen the size of the universe? I doubt it. None of us have. Where and how the hell did life begin? What is all this dark matter and dark energy? We have no idea.

We really know nothing, yet a lot of atheists (and religious folk) BOTH say they know and understand the entire universe.

I'm here to tell both parties you know SQUAT. A grain of sand in all the beaches of the earth. Let's start by conceding to our lack of knowledge and understanding, rather than being armchair experts on subjects humanity itself has no clue about.

/Agnostic.

Religion is a dying. Its decline started with the first Greek philosophers. Sure there were a couple of dark ages along the way, when progress was lost and religion became a tool of the powerfull elite....but still.

No one here can deny that its power is waning. The rise of fanatacism in the east (and recently in the west) are just the dying throes of a mortally wounded beast.

Short of a full blown nuclear war that wipes away most humanity from the face of the planet there is nothing that can stop this fact.

Nothing other than God...but so far he has done little to prove his existence....

And the Lord said:
"THOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL COVENANT ARKS!"

And there was I thinking blues was above an internet religion debate.

Beamer wrote on Sep 29, 2010, 06:52:
All the crusades nonsense is red herring at best. You can't complain about something hundreds of years old. Jesus, the stuff our country has done far more recently isn't terribly different.

Thats interesting. If a group is going to claim they are a force for good, then why is it wrong to point out their past crimes?
How many hundreds of years does it take before a crime no longer matters?
And if crimes of Christianity that were committed hundreds of years ago just don't count anymore, then neither do the good things.
So all that nice stuff Jesus said, pfff you cant praise something thousands of years old, Its a red herring at best.

And pointing the finger at crimes of others is just dumb.
"Yes officer, I robbed him, But other people have done worse so you should let me off, Besides I robbed him ages ago so it doesn't count anymore"

As for the claim that a lack of religion is also a religion, Having a strong opinion on a topic doesn't make it your religion. Religion entails a whole lot more.

Enjoy your game.

People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs.

Regarding all the attempts here to agree on points...

Intellectual agreement is just another belief and won’t make much difference to your life.

I wonder if we get to stone players that grind on the sabbath to death.

Beamer wrote on Sep 29, 2010, 06:52:
All the crusades nonsense is red herring at best. You can't complain about something hundreds of years old. Jesus, the stuff our country has done far more recently isn't terribly different.

But to say people dislike religion because they don't want to be judged is insane.
People dislike things absolutely adored despite there being no proof. And people dislike intolerance for other thought.

Which is ironic, because the lack of religion has become pure religion to most of them. Things can't be proven true, but typically also can't be proven false.

The truth is encapsulated here. Good post.