Valve on Piracy and Episode 3

We ask Gabe Newell about piracy, DRM and Episode Three on PC Gamer interviews the Valve boss along with Erik Johnson and Doug Lombardi. They discuss the upsides of the Steam service in smoothing out customer relations issues and preventing piracy to the extent that they don't give it much thought. They also ask about Half-Life 2: Episode 3, the long-lost final chapter in the Half-Life 2 series. Gabe responds with silence when asked about it twice, and when pressed says: "I understand, and I have to not say anything."
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62.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 20:02
62.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 20:02
Sep 17, 2010, 20:02
 
HL2 eps 3 =vaporware
61.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 12:19
Prez
 
61.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 12:19
Sep 17, 2010, 12:19
 Prez
 
Well, I'm glad that at least I explained my position sufficiently. And apparently my characterization of you was incorrect, and in truth, it was sort of a stab in the dark, but I apologize for it as well.

Ok, how many times when you reply to people's posts on this site do you stop and ask if they meant something other than what it appears that they meant?

Well, I actually do this before I respond. I try to determine if they meant what I first thought they did or if there could be another interpretation, and give them the benefit of the doubt.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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60.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 12:10
60.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 12:10
Sep 17, 2010, 12:10
 
People fight "positive" change that could potentially benefit them as often as they fight things that negative affect them personally.

How is that relevant? You can easily believe you are entitled to something that is negative for you. Some people, for example, believe they are entitled to smoke in restaurants.

The issue isn't about positive or negative, it's whether you have a valid argument to make for or against it.
59.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 12:07
59.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 12:07
Sep 17, 2010, 12:07
 
You again misinterpret me, and without giving me a chance to explain, automatically assume you understand my exact point without bothering to ask for or even accept clarification when I give it.

Ok, how many times when you reply to people's posts on this site do you stop and ask if they meant something other than what it appears that they meant? I mean, really, yes, I could stop every time before I post, and ask "did you actually mean XX?", but at some point I have to take what someone wrote and go with it. And yes, you do the same thing, as I've noted a distinct lack of you asking me to clarify any of my points.

What bothers me enough to keep this little round-about going is the assumption that you know better what I mean then I myself do.

I don't assume I know better what you mean. What I do assume is that what you've said is what you meant. Again, as with above, that's all I have to go by. I don't have telepathy, and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work over the internet even if I did.

Now, I could take nin's advice and just chalk you up as a trol

When he contributes something a little more than his typical single line snark to a discussion, maybe then he'd be worth listening to. Although I guess that gives him that "takes one to know one" credential...

I could continue to explain why you are wrong in your interpretation of what I said in the hope that you would realize your mistake

Well, this is the first time you've explained this particular one, so yes, based on your explanation, I can agree that I've most likely misread you. I still maintain that gamers, in general tend to have a sense of entitlement. But I apologize if I mistakenly categorized you among them.

On the other hand, I must say that I would have been far more likely to come to that conclusion earlier on had you not insisted on miscategorizations on my part. Frankly, I have no idea where you got the idea that I'm some sort of "developer's rights" crusader, out to crucify the consumer masses here at Blues, but it couldn't be farther from the truth.
58.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 11:56
58.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 11:56
Sep 17, 2010, 11:56
 
I am saying that if your only argument for something is an expectation that it should be done that way, then yes, that demonstrates a sense of entitlement.

No it doesn't. We're creatures of precedent and adverse to change. Whether or not people feel entitled to something is besides the point. People fight "positive" change that could potentially benefit them as often as they fight things that negative affect them personally. If a precedent is set and people are jarred by a change in the usual course of action then of course they will argue an opposing position. It may not be right but it's not entitlement.

You're trying to say he meant one thing when he has clearly explained his opinion. Short of shoving words down his throat you can't really make him say something just because you have a rebuttal.
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57.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 11:52
Prez
 
57.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 11:52
Sep 17, 2010, 11:52
 Prez
 
You again misinterpret me, and without giving me a chance to explain, automatically assume you understand my exact point without bothering to ask for or even accept clarification when I give it.

I "expect" that the sun is going to come up tomorrow, because it always has. Do I feel entitled to the sun rising to suit me? Nope. The sun does what it does, regardless of my wishes. It owes me nothing. Your assuming that my expectation is something I demand as being obligatory, whereas I simply mean I anticipate it's going to happen. When it doesn't, I get confused, worried, concerned, flustered, etc. because by nature I am a person of routine.

It's not the lack of understanding on your part that bothers me; someone misunderstanding me could just as easily be insufficient wording on my part. What bothers me enough to keep this little round-about going is the assumption that you know better what I mean then I myself do. How could I not view that as arrogant?

Now, I could take nin's advice and just chalk you up as a troll, and move on, or (being the obstinate and persistent person that I am) I could continue to explain why you are wrong in your interpretation of what I said in the hope that you would realize your mistake. Either way, I know that I have no sense of entitlement in this or anything else.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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56.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 11:22
nin
56.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 11:22
Sep 17, 2010, 11:22
nin
 

Prez, there are far more worthy trolls to spend your time on...
55.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 10:47
55.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 10:47
Sep 17, 2010, 10:47
 
I had originally posted a response in-kind, but sniping back and forth doesn't accomplish anything.

Instead, I'm going to discuss why your definition of "sense of entitlement" is wrong. You said:
If I expect something to happen because it's the way things are normally done, that is not a sense of entitlement.
That is exactly what a sense of entitlement is. First, let me use a non-gaming example to illustrate: Tipping at restaurants is the way things are normally done. But a waiter who believes that a customer owes him a tip has a sense of entitlement. Tips are, despite being common, completely optional.

And now to some gaming examples. Let's take the MW2 fiasco. Many gamers were complaining about the lack of dedicated servers. Now there's nothing wrong with complaining about that. I can put forth a solid argument in favour of dedicated servers. Where the sense of entitlement came in is from the people who were arguing that MW2 should have dedicated servers because games have "always" had dedicated servers. That is not an argument in favour of dedicated servers. Saying you deserve something because you've "always" got something isn't valid.

Let's take another example, SC2 costing $60. People argued against it, but some people argued against it merely on the basis that games have "always" cost $50. Again, a completely invalid argument that demonstrates a sense of entitlement.

To misquote and mangle something from the movie Other People's Money, just because people have "always" got around by horse and buggy is not a valid reason not to switch to cars. You can't use argument against expectation as your only argument or, again, sense of entitlement.

Now, in all the examples I used, yes, there were people who put forth good arguments against the positions. For example, on the dedicated server front, if you were arguing in favour of them because many people don't have decent enough connections to host larger numbers of people, for example, that's fine. So I'm not saying that you can't argue against positions. I am saying that if your only argument for something is an expectation that it should be done that way, then yes, that demonstrates a sense of entitlement.

This comment was edited on Sep 17, 2010, 11:28.
54.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 10:26
Prez
 
54.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 10:26
Sep 17, 2010, 10:26
 Prez
 
Bhruic wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 08:27:
Sorry, I'll take my lumps for what I actually believe, but I refuse to be castigated for what you've dreamed up.

Funny that you don't like that considering you've been doing it to me since you insisted I have a sense of entitlement over a completely innocuous comment. Everything is right here in this thread for easy perusal, nothing can be called "patently false if it's written in black and white (or in this case blue and white) one page back.

...hypocrite much?

Right back atcha.

And who had a stick up his ass, lecturing me on how I am supposed to feel and not feel about Valve's handing of their property? You can say 'we' all you want - speak for yourself; I have no sense of entitlement about anything, be it from developers, my job, the government, whatever. If you have guilt issues, work them out on your own - don't include me in them.

I consider myself one of the most fair and even-keeled people on this site; I always try to consider each side of an issue or debate, rarely post in anger, and when I am wrong, I admit. But I am not going to be brow beat into not sharing my opinions because someone "takes issue" with something I didn't even say or mean, nor will I try to pussyfoot around in an effort to avoid offending someone or pissing them off.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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53.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 09:14
53.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 09:14
Sep 17, 2010, 09:14
 
Exactly. It's amazing how with some people the developer can do no wrong and the community is always at fault for everything.

Developers can do wrong. Take APB for example. Huge wrong. It wasn't evil, but it was wrong. But anyone buying the game, at least anyone here, damn well knew they were taking a risk buying it, too. No one should have been surprised.

But the "wrongs" people see here are ridiculous. Valve is "wrong" for not telling people they're working on HL3? Please. They have no reason to right now. For all we know they just ripped Source 2 out of it and rebuilt a new engine from scratch and are 4 years away from release. Why should they tell us anything?
52.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 08:27
52.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 08:27
Sep 17, 2010, 08:27
 
I made no personal insults, unless you take "being a dick" as an insult?

Please. Veiled comments like "a wiser person", and commenting on a "third-grade reading level" aren't meant as insults? We both know differently.

you wouldn't have made that holier-than-thou comment about everyone having a sense of entitlement

Everyone, no, but a large percentage, yes. And I'm certainly not being holier-than-thou when I'm including myself among that number.

nice one trying to say that one wasn't directed at me - hell you've been lecturing me on my mythical sense of entitlement since this pissing match started

Dude, at least go back and read the thread before you make patently false statements like that.

You are one of those faux noble people who likes to bash our community and stick up for developers by using stupid

I have no right to tell you what you meant, but you apparently have every right to tell me all about who and what I am. Again, hypocrite much? Seriously, how are you self-justifying doing to me exactly what you just claimed I can't do to you?

Furthermore, if you actually checked my post history, it'd become very clear that I almost never stick up for developers, and almost always stick up for consumers. All I was doing this time was pointing out a blind-spot that we maintain around here - the idea that it's ok for us to assert our rights as consumers, but not ok for developers to do their version of it. That's not "bashing our community". It seems to me that you've got a stick up your ass over someone else's posts/attitude (Beamer's?), and you're taking it out on me. Sorry, I'll take my lumps for what I actually believe, but I refuse to be castigated for what you've dreamed up.
51.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 08:02
Prez
 
51.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 08:02
Sep 17, 2010, 08:02
 Prez
 
Bhruic wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 07:18:
No, what's sad is that you had to turn this into a personal insult-fest. Normally you take the high road, and I applaud you for it. Unfortunately it appears this time you decided to be a real dick. Well, ok, I guess everyone's allowed to be a dick. Certainly doesn't help your argument any.

I made no personal insults, unless you take "being a dick" as an insult? You said yourself, we all do it. I appreciate you applauding my taking the high road. I tried to do that this time as well. All I said was that Valve sure makes it hard to remain a loyal fan when they say nothing about the direction they are going with the Half Life series. Yeah, that's just a terrible statement with all kinds of obnoxious entitlement wrapped up in it. When I fall off the high road it's almost always because some joker is going to come in here and tell me what I meant, and insist I meant it even after I explained that no, that's not what I meant at all. Frankly, you have no right to tell me what I meant, since I'm the only one who knows that.

If you truly just wanted to have a discussion, you wouldn't have made that holier-than-thou comment about everyone having a sense of entitlement (nice one trying to say that one wasn't directed at me - hell you've been lecturing me on my mythical sense of entitlement since this pissing match started). You are one of those faux noble people who likes to bash our community and stick up for developers by using stupid, tired tactics like accusing anyone who says anything negative of being whiny, self-entitled, bitchy. etc etc etc ad nauseum. You want to talk about delusions of grandeur, I wish people like you and Beamer would climb down out of your ivory towers once in a while - your superiority complexes aren't endearing you to anyone.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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50.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 07:18
50.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 07:18
Sep 17, 2010, 07:18
 
It's really kind of sad

No, what's sad is that you had to turn this into a personal insult-fest. Normally you take the high road, and I applaud you for it. Unfortunately it appears this time you decided to be a real dick. Well, ok, I guess everyone's allowed to be a dick. Certainly doesn't help your argument any.

You came in the thread just to be a dick

So just to check, I'm not allowed to interpret your words, but you can invent your own reasons for why I came into the thread, despite the fact that my original post(s) were entirely confined to discussions of pre-information timing. Gotcha. Hypocrite much?

The best you can really cling to is that I believe that Valve owes me information? That's it, really?

What else was there supposed to be? Yeah, that's it. I wasn't trying to cure cancer.

awkwardly try to fit this into your little personal agenda of belittling me and by extension the community here

Wow, talk about delusions of grandeur. Speaking of that reading comprehension that apparently you don't have... I didn't even aim my original "sense of entitlement" comment at you, it was made as a completely general and generic statement (which you'll note I included myself in by using the word "we"). You're the one who decided to make it personal and turn it into a virtual pissing contest. And now you're trying to make it sound like I'm the one who's got a personal agenda. If you want to make things personal, fine, but don't turn around and whine about it after the fact.
49.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 17, 2010, 03:33
Prez
 
49.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 17, 2010, 03:33
Sep 17, 2010, 03:33
 Prez
 
Bhruic wrote on Sep 16, 2010, 20:44:
What I do have an issue with is people who insist that the developers owe them information. And yes, there are a lot of people who do that, especially on this particular website.

It's really kind of sad that you are going on with this personal war of yours that has NO foundation in truth whatsoever. You came in the thread just to be a dick, and now you can't let it go. The "total bullshit" here is everything comprised in your increasingly arrogant and nonsensical posts. The best you can really cling to is that I believe that Valve owes me information? That's it, really? That's absolutely pitiful. Really. A wiser person would have realized they just completely misrepresented my point due to lack of comprehension in their hurry to show off the size of their net-sack and moved on. Alas, you are apparently not that person. Instead you have to try to attribute thoughts I don't have to what I said that simply cannot be inferred from anyone with a third-grade reading level. It is still not working, no matter how you try to beat the dead horse and awkwardly try to fit this into your little personal agenda of belittling me and by extension the community here. Again, pretty sad.

This comment was edited on Sep 17, 2010, 03:41.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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48.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 16, 2010, 22:18
48.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 16, 2010, 22:18
Sep 16, 2010, 22:18
 
The lack of information is both an extreme reaction to the botch of HL2's release (and subsequent episodes) and an experiment by Valve.

They love to experiment, so they're going to release HL3 on Steam with zero hype and watch their graphs.

That's my crazy prediction.
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47.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 16, 2010, 20:44
47.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 16, 2010, 20:44
Sep 16, 2010, 20:44
 
The "sense of entitlement" garbage is a common tactic used by anyone who wants to deflect anything negative said about a developer they like (or work for) back to the person saying the terrible, horrible things

Total bullshit. I don't particularily like Valve. HL2 was horribly overrated. They've totally fucked up the whole "episodes" issue. They screwed people over by releasing L4D2 so quickly and not supporting L4D1. I'm not trying to defend them in the slightest.

If what you'd done is come in here and say they were making an idiotic business decision, I might have agreed with you. I might not have, because neither of us actually knows the situation with their HL development, so hey, they might actually be doing the right thing. But I certainly wouldn't have an issue with someone who thought so.

What I do have an issue with is people who insist that the developers owe them information. And yes, there are a lot of people who do that, especially on this particular website.

you are now displaying a rather unbecoming arrogance by deigning to tell me what I feel

Yeah, I'm totally arrogant because I actually quoted what you said. If you didn't actually mean what you said, you shouldn't have said it.

It's the same with Half Life. The series has been left to rot while Valve decides which business model to try next. Meanwhile all of the fans are left struggling to remember why they were fans in the first place.

Again, total bullshit. If Valve made a big HL announcement tomorrow, all of those fans would be all over it. And the reason people were fans in the first place, is presumably because they actually liked the games. That's not going to change simply because Valve isn't hyping their next game in the way that you seem to think they should.
46.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 16, 2010, 19:41
46.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 16, 2010, 19:41
Sep 16, 2010, 19:41
 
It's being rolled into just plain Half-Life 3 at this point otherwise we would have heard something but it's definitely not vaporware.
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45.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 16, 2010, 15:07
45.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 16, 2010, 15:07
Sep 16, 2010, 15:07
 
Prez wrote on Sep 16, 2010, 13:25:
Verno wrote on Sep 16, 2010, 12:08:
I've noticed there is a lot more of that these days too. You can no longer enjoy a game but have a complaint about it without being attacked by a pack of apologists and fanboys. I like Valve but to say that the development of episode 3 has been anything but a huge disappointment on every level is insane.

Exactly. It's amazing how with some people the developer can do no wrong and the community is always at fault for everything.

I have to ask what development of HL2 eps 3 are you referring too

there is no development

Hl2 eps3 = vaporware
44.
 
loser
Sep 16, 2010, 14:39
44.
loser Sep 16, 2010, 14:39
Sep 16, 2010, 14:39
 
you know what really makes me angry? THESE FUCKING VIDEO GAME COMPANIES!!! ARRGGRHRGHRGHRGRH!
43.
 
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3
Sep 16, 2010, 13:25
Prez
 
43.
Re: Valve on Piracy and Episode 3 Sep 16, 2010, 13:25
Sep 16, 2010, 13:25
 Prez
 
Verno wrote on Sep 16, 2010, 12:08:
I've noticed there is a lot more of that these days too. You can no longer enjoy a game but have a complaint about it without being attacked by a pack of apologists and fanboys. I like Valve but to say that the development of episode 3 has been anything but a huge disappointment on every level is insane.

Exactly. It's amazing how with some people the developer can do no wrong and the community is always at fault for everything.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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