Long games are OK if they are good. However, I don't have a lot of free times (0-2 hours a week; mostly Flash games (thanks Blue) :P) to even game these days since I am an old fart now.

"A huge chunk of gamers never finish games."
I haven't finished a lot of games I have purchased either. There's way more than one possible conclusion for this other than fun factor. Because Cliffski didn't finish HL 1, HL 2 or Bioshock the games suck? Is that the conclusion we should all come to?

"When I read about how some l33t haxxor ‘finished’ a game in 8 hours, I find it laughable."
Because someone finishes a game in 8 hours doesn't necessarily mean they were "racing" to finish the game. Maybe they were so "into" the game that the end came before they realized, like watching a good movie. Maybe the game was so good they didn't want to stop playing it.
"The idea is to enjoy the experience, not race to the end as fast as you can."
I guess these comments are an indication that their next game release will be quality over quantity and they don't want anyone whining about a short game even though they paid $60 for it.

D_K_night wrote on Aug 19, 2010, 02:53:
Yeah I don't see myself buying any of his games. He's starting to become more known for making controversial remarks over making games that people actually want to play., over AAA titles. Personally I don't think this is the best way to go about being an indie.

About 30 indie develoeprs posted the same sentiment on the same day.
It wasn't even my idea to arrange this event.
So it's not like I'm trying to be controversial, just agreeing with what a huge bnunch of indie devs think. A huge bunch of triple A devs think it too, but PR departments prevent them from saying so.
It's also not my fault if the games press is keener to report controverisal comments than new game releases.

Yeah I don't see myself buying any of his games. He's starting to become more known for making controversial remarks over making games that people actually want to play., over AAA titles. Personally I don't think this is the best way to go about being an indie.

I've finished 241 games so far - without rushing - I've kept track. I like to take my time, I just also like to get to the end of the current game before starting a new one.

But yes, I enjoyed World of Goo more than I enjoyed Halo 3.

that this clowns argument basically boils down to "Game length doesn't matter because I have a short attention span?"

I don't finish all games (ones I find boring) but I do finish most games, but they do tend to take some time. This isn't for lack of wanting to finish them, but more I like to have it entertain me over time. More like a TV series, sure sometimes a movie is good, but a TV series is nice and constant. An episode or two will suck but it keeps on going.

I do agree some Final Fantasy games are a bit too long, I've only completed FF6 (SNES) and FF7 (PSX). The others didn't get my interest, yet Legend of Mana (PSX) I have completed multiple times (co-op mode is great fun). Also finished all Halo games on console co-op on the couch. Having the second person motivates me to finish games I think =D

I believe the point is that the length isn't everything, but this most gamers already agreed with so it's not as big as a deal as Cliffski is making it seems.

I personally cant really agree with this. While I do understand his sentiment and have heard the same story from other developers, I tend to complete games unless I dont find them enjoyable.

I have completed all the games he mentions 2 times at least, and will probably get back to them again. That might not be typical, but I am not so sure Cliffski is either.

From HL2:EP2-stats for example:

Average total playtime 6h19m
Average completion time 6h53m

I understand the sentiment. But hey, I got about 20 mins out of WOG, and completed Halo a few times, then got countless online hours out of it. What he is saying just does not apply to me at all.

I think Cliffski's length-only argument is flawed.

Guess what? Length does matter. It just isn't the only thing that matters?

I'm certainly not paying $100.00 for a one minute game. Likewise, I won't pay a penny for game that takes a year of playing before I have any fun.

After all, if you really, really enjoy something, you generally want it to go on. But even then, in what sense? After cooling off for a bit? Going in a new direction? Answering a specific question? Giving you control over a previously unavailable/inaccessible thing? With friends?
Duh?
Noting that individual components are part of the collective whole,
Ray

Domgrief wrote on Aug 18, 2010, 15:00:
Cliffski's stereotype of the speedrun 'leet haxor' is mistaken. Quake Done Quick is a testament of hundreds of hours of practice... more comparable to reciting Hamlet than speed-reading it. (I hope that's both the first and last time Quake and Hamlet are ever used in the same metaphor)

However, I strongly agree with the main point of his post - a game shouldn't be judged by its length. Final Fantasy XII made me give up with a howling IS THIS EVER GOING TO END, and the last thing I want to see is FF XIV touted as 'twice as long'!

Edit: I think I should add that this is why we have critics. If most gamers are going to give up halfway through Diablo and Bioshock, SOMEONE needs to take the social responsibility of saying that it's totally worth hanging in there.

Once you get to the plot twist in BioShock, there's really no point in continuing to play except to say that you beat it. The end is pretty lame.

Edit: Actually, wait, the same is true about Diablo, too. The gameplay never changes in that one. You can get the full experience by just watching the cutscenes, once you're tired of click-spamming.

This comment was edited on Aug 18, 2010, 17:25.

PHJF wrote on Aug 18, 2010, 15:37:
What the hell are you talking about, FFXIII is literally like a fourth the length of any other FF game. Perhaps a side effect of having 95% of the game be a one-way train ride through Hallsville.

I didn't say it was long, I said it was boring and that it felt like a pain to play from about hour 2 onward.

As far as narrative was concerned, the pacing was fine.

I hesitate to even use the word narrative in association with a game where significant portions of the story are literally left to the games diary despite a heavy cutscene runtime. That's poor storytelling but I guess sure the "pacing" of the poor story is fine You get enough to understand the convoluted mess in the end but that's really a test of patience more than a credit to the writers.

What the hell are you talking about, FFXIII is literally like a fourth the length of any other FF game. Perhaps a side effect of having 95% of the game be a one-way train ride through Hallsville.

It could be that it was so boring that it just seemed much longer.

What the hell are you talking about, FFXIII is literally like a fourth the length of any other FF game. Perhaps a side effect of having 95% of the game be a one-way train ride through Hallsville.

As far as narrative was concerned, the pacing was fine.

Verno wrote on Aug 18, 2010, 15:03:

kxmode wrote on Aug 18, 2010, 14:57:

Bitterbug wrote on Aug 18, 2010, 12:41:
How exactly do you disagree with him saying he got bored of games?
If he said "I'm hungry." would you disagree with that too?

Is it really hard to understand? I wasn't bored with Half Life, Half Life 2, Bioshock and almost any game he might have cared to mention. I disagree with his critique that most games are boring. Understand now?

Maybe he would have understood if you had posted that the first time instead of just "I disagree" or "I agree". You didn't even offer an opinion of your own. So I can get why he would have trouble "understanding".

I'm just as expressive in real life. "Want to get some food?" "Yes." Where at?" "Don't care." "How about burgers?" "Whatever."

Imagine if a novelist admitted he's only finished three books in his life, though he's skimmed over many others. Or a musician who only owns two or three albums, but does listen to the radio sometimes. It's just amazing to me that there are so many guys who don't really like games in the business of making games. He's certainly not the only one.

Domgrief wrote on Aug 18, 2010, 15:10:

Ah, my mistake. I lost count of them when I decided not to upgrade my console.

... I should add that I also quit WoW when I started howling IS THIS EVER GOING TO END and then realised that it wasn't.

Hey man, I sympathize with you I played FF13 and thought the same thing myself from about hour 2 onward.

Verno wrote on Aug 18, 2010, 15:03:

Final Fantasy XII made me give up with a howling IS THIS EVER GOING TO END, and the last thing I want to see is FF XIV touted as 'twice as long'!

FF14 is an MMO, it will literally never end.

Ah, my mistake. I lost count of them when I decided not to upgrade my console.

... I should add that I also quit WoW when I started howling IS THIS EVER GOING TO END and then realised that it wasn't.

* REMOVED *
This comment was deleted on Aug 18, 2010, 15:13.

kxmode wrote on Aug 18, 2010, 14:57:

Bitterbug wrote on Aug 18, 2010, 12:41:
How exactly do you disagree with him saying he got bored of games?
If he said "I'm hungry." would you disagree with that too?

Is it really hard to understand? I wasn't bored with Half Life, Half Life 2, Bioshock and almost any game he might have cared to mention. I disagree with his critique that most games are boring. Understand now?

Maybe he would have understood if you had posted that the first time instead of just "I disagree" or "I agree". You didn't even offer an opinion of your own. So I can get why he would have trouble "understanding".

Final Fantasy XII made me give up with a howling IS THIS EVER GOING TO END, and the last thing I want to see is FF XIV touted as 'twice as long'!

FF14 is an MMO, it will literally never end.

Creston wrote on Aug 18, 2010, 14:43:
If you don't care how long a game is, why do you fucking care if a certain subset of gamers would like to see long games again? I'll never understand that fucking mentality. It's the same as when people bitch about quicksaves ruining a game. DON'T FUCKING USE IT IF YOU DON'T FUCKING LIKE IT.

Tell us how you really feel Creston.