John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers

Shacknews has some tidbits from a QuakeCon post-keynote Q&A with John Carmack. The id Software technical director expresses interest in cloud gaming, saying there are problems like draconian DRM schemes it will solve, and that a lot of people will end up playing games using the cloud model. He also expresses puzzlement over the issue being made over dedicated server support, but backs off from the couple of indications that RAGE would not have dedicated server support, saying this is still undecided, but adding he "expects it will be possible [to run a dedicated server] for Rage."
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44.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 19:28
44.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 19:28
Aug 15, 2010, 19:28
 
Jerykk wrote on Aug 15, 2010, 15:55:
They actually, officially, have said that it is developed for all 4 platforms at once and that they "know how to do a great PC game, don't worry

I'm pretty sure Carmack said that 360 was the lead platform and that they were designing the game for gamepads. Still looking for the specific interviews where he said those things but in the meantime, this interview shows that consoles are the focus:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3751/quelling_the_rage_carmack_and_.php?page=2

Oh I am sure consoles are the focus, I am just saying I bet they do a good PC version as well... as good as say a Bethesda game, anyway.
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43.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 15:55
43.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 15:55
Aug 15, 2010, 15:55
 
They actually, officially, have said that it is developed for all 4 platforms at once and that they "know how to do a great PC game, don't worry

I'm pretty sure Carmack said that 360 was the lead platform and that they were designing the game for gamepads. Still looking for the specific interviews where he said those things but in the meantime, this interview shows that consoles are the focus:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3751/quelling_the_rage_carmack_and_.php?page=2
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42.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 14:04
42.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 14:04
Aug 15, 2010, 14:04
 
Yes, thank you, I know what CSP and dedicated servers are for. Yes, I know that console gaming still technically uses dedicated servers because someone in the matchmaking process is chosen for their console to host the game. It's academic because quality is severely degraded regardless. Congratulations on completely ignoring the actual points I was making.
NOT THE BEES! NOT THE BEES THEY'RE IN MY EYES AARRGRHGHGGAFHGHFGHFG!
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41.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 13:17
41.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 13:17
Aug 15, 2010, 13:17
 
Dr. D. Schreber wrote on Aug 15, 2010, 00:22:
ASJD wrote on Aug 14, 2010, 21:58:
Dr. D. Schreber wrote on Aug 14, 2010, 14:45:
John of all people should understand that dedicated servers are a technological advantage over peer-to-peering. There's no ifs, ands or buts (or butts) about it; you have dedicated servers, you can have a game that relies less on client-side prediction and gives the players a more authentic experience based on what everyone in-game is actually doing, with less of the outcome reliant on luck.

You don't understand the purpose of client-side prediction.

Yes I do, the problem is that developers have taken a "lalalalalalalalala WE CAN'T HEAR YOU!" approach to the purpose of client-side prediction. This is largely how console multiplayer functions, considering that it's always suffered the problems of a p2p gaming setup. Client-side prediction is an excuse to ignore the fact that the system is inherently disadvantaged. "We don't have dedicated servers so the multiplayer is never going to be very precise, just turn up the CSP to compensate for it!"

You have no idea what CSP or dedicated servers actually mean. CSP is used in 100% of first person shooter games, from doom and quake, the source engine, to modern warfare 2. Here's a good description from valve for how their software works - if you can follow it: http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking

I also don't think you can generalize all console games as peer to peer. Many of them DO use "dedicated" servers. The meaning of dedicated server in this discussion, is the ability for users to run their own servers.

The actual networking model for most games these days (console or pc) is actually the client server approach, it's just that companies like to have authority over who is running the servers, so that their lauded matchmaking features, leveling up, stats, etc all work properly. With users running their own servers, modders could hack in ways to up user scores etc. The whole built-in community stuff, copied from xbox live, was the signal that user servers were at an end. Another feature of dev-run servers is that they can patch their servers and keep everything up to date without users experiencing version mismatches etc.

Of course, what they are taking away is the freedom of being able to set up our own servers, either for a clan, or for our friends. Or being able to have mods on a server. Or being able to have a server we KNOW is physically close to us so the lag is minimal, without having to rely on the developer actually having a nearby server (which is a ton of work for them to support on their own).

I don't see why they can't make dedicated servers a separate feature, which doesn't hook into achievements and the like. It could even be a separate option on the menu. It's more work to do the matchmaking algorithms than it is to show a server list, boggles my mind why they go that route instead of the way games used to work. At least give us the option! Lan parties still exist guys, and the best way to host one is to set up a specific server for it.

But devs don't seem to care what we want any more. We ask for table scraps, and they don't even give us those. 40 million dollars to make a game, and they can't even spare the couple thousand bucks a dedicated server would cost in dev time. (A couple days of work for a few devs)
40.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 12:56
40.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 12:56
Aug 15, 2010, 12:56
 
Overon wrote on Aug 15, 2010, 10:41:
Why do you need "evidence" for that? id has blatantly said that Rage is developed for consoles and they don't give a shit about the PC version.
Well I doubt they said it quite like that.

They actually, officially, have said that it is developed for all 4 platforms at once and that they "know how to do a great PC game, don't worry."

I think people are instantly pessimistic for a reason though.
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39.
 
Re: Star Trek Online End of Beta Event
Aug 15, 2010, 11:56
39.
Re: Star Trek Online End of Beta Event Aug 15, 2010, 11:56
Aug 15, 2010, 11:56
 
Beamer wrote on Aug 15, 2010, 01:37:

Who do they take 50% from, and do you even understand how bailouts work, or are you one of the dolts that thinks they're free money?

As a self-employed individual, the combined fed, local and state governments take almost %40 of my earnings. It is true that some of this money ends up in a trust fund for retirement, but more than enough is squandered outright or used to pay interest on a very large debt load, or as an attempt to support an ever expanding empire. Bailouts are not free money for corporations. However, government subsidy of industry does socialize the risk in many cases, while allowing the profits to remain private.

38.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 11:48
38.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 11:48
Aug 15, 2010, 11:48
 
Verno wrote on Aug 14, 2010, 22:39:

IBM made the Cell security so ridiculous that people have basically given up. If you want to read up on it, try to wrap your head around this.

THANKS for the link - I didn't realize that it was hardware protected. Even though I have never touched a console, I don't like uncracked devices and I hope that some exploit will emerge to rectify this eventually.
37.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 10:41
37.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 10:41
Aug 15, 2010, 10:41
 
Why do you need "evidence" for that? id has blatantly said that Rage is developed for consoles and they don't give a shit about the PC version.
Well I doubt they said it quite like that.
36.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 10:28
36.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 10:28
Aug 15, 2010, 10:28
 
ForgedReality wrote on Aug 15, 2010, 04:55:
Did you think the RIAA just went out and found copyrighted material on their own? They would have no basis for a case. You can't legally profit from someone else's property in court unless you're acting on their behalf, and you have to show that a certain percentage gets back to the copyright holder.

Of course the problem there is that the record labels are the copyright holders, not the artists. The artist still gets $0.
35.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 10:08
35.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 10:08
Aug 15, 2010, 10:08
 
The RIAA is a business effort to standardize the act of profiting off of artists by people whose only talent is figuring out how to scam people out of money. Now they're figuring out how to profit off of end-users too. Do you think any of that settlement money the RIAA collects actually ends up as checks going to the artists?

You're doing a minor disservice to record labels.

Do artists profit from the lawsuits? Not directly, of course, the purpose of those lawsuits isn't direct profit, anyway. Do they profit from album sales? Not really. Never really did. Only the very top level artists have historically made any money from record sales. We're talking the absolute biggest of bands solely.

What record labels did was centralize marketing, distribution and risk. Record labels paid for the recording, which was extremely cost-prohibitive. They edited, they pressed the records, they sent the records to record stores, they got the records airplay, they paid for the tour, they arranged interviews, etc. Bands could not do the vast majority of this without them. Sure, they took a huge cut, essentially all album sales, but bands couldn't be much more than a local act without them.

Now bands can record on a laptop, upload to itunes, and advertise on myspace. Pretty much the only thing a label can do for them is radio play, but most people only listen to the radio in their car these days, and increasingly go mp3-player exclusively.

So the RIAA is quite literally fighting for survival as music moves to a business model that doesn't need it.

The MPAA is a very different story.
34.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 09:20
34.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 09:20
Aug 15, 2010, 09:20
 
I would put forward the suggestion that Carmack was and has always been a computer scientist first, and a gamer second. I'm not convinced any of iD's IP's really demonstrate any amount of creativity or imagination beyond flying skulls, cyberdaemons and the imaginings of too many rock concerts. As a technical wiz at pioneering computing technologies, Carmack has and continues to be a genius with little rival - 3D engines, texturing, multiplayer gaming etc. But again, I'm not convinced that outside of the dark basement of the iD 'old days' he has ever really had the mindset of a healthy all-round gamer.

The very origin of dedicated servers in the hay-day of quakeworld's pioneering netcode was fundamentally due to a lack of bandwith, (hello 9600 baud modems) and the client-server system would have been a sensible, logical and scientific decision. Now that we live in the age of broadband, to him it would seem illogical to go down that road. But as has been already highlighted, he wont appreciate what additional benefits servers have brought about - communities, mods and extra-value that never shipped with the title, giving games long exceeded shelf life.

I don't diss Carmack's genius and contribution when it comes to pc gaming, and I myself am a long-term FPS gamer with much to give thanks for due to Doom/Quake etc, but I really don't believe the gaming world should turn to Carmack to give direction to the average gamer on what is the future of our platform. Let him do the science, and let others craft ideas and draw from the gaming scene.
33.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 09:03
33.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 09:03
Aug 15, 2010, 09:03
 
ASJD wrote on Aug 14, 2010, 22:00:
KilrathiAce wrote on Aug 14, 2010, 18:30:
are as out of touch with time as carmack is.

Wow, saying something like this comes off as extraordinarily stupid. When you think Carmack is out of touch, guess who's out of touch?

It's you.

Carmack & co has been kindly allowed to join the "executive bathroom" club. Freshman at this level, he`s displaying all the symptoms of soda- water-in-my-head syndrome spouting insane garbage like his above speech about cloud (9?)"gaming".
(With some PR coaching he`ll learn to be completely evasive/meaningless like true exec should be. In a way, I "prefer" Kotick`s : "Screw you, where`s mah money?!?" approach)

If you fail to observe this, sir, then you either didn`t live long enough/had your eyes closed/or have a key to this bathroom yourself.
Rather depressing...

32.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 04:55
32.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 04:55
Aug 15, 2010, 04:55
 
Flatline wrote on Aug 15, 2010, 02:46:
Do you think any of that settlement money the RIAA collects actually ends up as checks going to the artists?

This is not entirely accurate. Artists don't go to RIAA with copyright complaints because they want to be a modern day Batman. RIAA acts on their part to see that the "bad guys" hand over some money, and for their help, RIAA gets to keep a good chunk of that change.

Did you think the RIAA just went out and found copyrighted material on their own? They would have no basis for a case. You can't legally profit from someone else's property in court unless you're acting on their behalf, and you have to show that a certain percentage gets back to the copyright holder.
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31.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 03:37
31.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 03:37
Aug 15, 2010, 03:37
 
Publishers don't spend money defending themselves from things that they don't care about. Your "only sales matter" shtick doesn't tell the whole tale.

You're kinda missing the point. If PC games outsold console games, publishers would focus on developing PC games regardless of how much piracy there was. However, PC games are never going to outsell console games because console gaming is simply more mainstream. The presence (or absence) of piracy doesn't change this fact. Piracy could disappear tomorrow and publishers would continue focusing on consoles.

Examples:

PC is the lead platform for most strategy games. Why? Because strategy games sell most on PC, even if they are pirated the most on PC.

PC was the lead platform for shooters in the 90's, in spite of the fact that they were pirated up the arse.

If piracy was more important than sales, PC would have never been the lead platform for anything.

This comment was edited on Aug 15, 2010, 03:42.
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30.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 03:29
30.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 03:29
Aug 15, 2010, 03:29
 
tuddies wrote on Aug 14, 2010, 21:11:
PS3 has zero piracy? What is the problem, not enough interest?

Sony has it locked down pretty well. The reason why they discontinued linux support was because people(or one particular person) were very close to completely cracking the system using the other OS option as an end around on the security measures.

29.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 02:46
29.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 02:46
Aug 15, 2010, 02:46
 
Obviously piracy matters to someone or we wouldn't be seeing everyone trend towards server check-ins and the RIAA wouldn't exist.

This just in!

The RIAA existed before computers, Napster, and mp3s.

The RIAA is a business effort to standardize the act of profiting off of artists by people whose only talent is figuring out how to scam people out of money. Now they're figuring out how to profit off of end-users too. Do you think any of that settlement money the RIAA collects actually ends up as checks going to the artists?

The piracy thing is just a relatively recent side interest to the RIAA. It's also a favorite scapegoat to justify what would otherwise be incredibly bullshit business tactics.

If piracy ended tomorrow completely the powers that be would simply find another industry villain to keep doing what they're doing.
28.
 
Re: Star Trek Online End of Beta Event
Aug 15, 2010, 01:37
28.
Re: Star Trek Online End of Beta Event Aug 15, 2010, 01:37
Aug 15, 2010, 01:37
 
The government already does that, and look what they do with alot of the money? Kill things and bail out billionaires.

Who do they take 50% from, and do you even understand how bailouts work, or are you one of the dolts that thinks they're free money?
27.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 15, 2010, 00:22
27.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 15, 2010, 00:22
Aug 15, 2010, 00:22
 
ASJD wrote on Aug 14, 2010, 21:58:
Dr. D. Schreber wrote on Aug 14, 2010, 14:45:
John of all people should understand that dedicated servers are a technological advantage over peer-to-peering. There's no ifs, ands or buts (or butts) about it; you have dedicated servers, you can have a game that relies less on client-side prediction and gives the players a more authentic experience based on what everyone in-game is actually doing, with less of the outcome reliant on luck.

You don't understand the purpose of client-side prediction.

Yes I do, the problem is that developers have taken a "lalalalalalalalala WE CAN'T HEAR YOU!" approach to the purpose of client-side prediction. This is largely how console multiplayer functions, considering that it's always suffered the problems of a p2p gaming setup. Client-side prediction is an excuse to ignore the fact that the system is inherently disadvantaged. "We don't have dedicated servers so the multiplayer is never going to be very precise, just turn up the CSP to compensate for it!"
NOT THE BEES! NOT THE BEES THEY'RE IN MY EYES AARRGRHGHGGAFHGHFGHFG!
Avatar 51686
26.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 14, 2010, 23:24
26.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 14, 2010, 23:24
Aug 14, 2010, 23:24
 
StingingVelvet wrote on Aug 14, 2010, 20:57:
Jerykk wrote on Aug 14,
It's all about sales in the end. Nothing else matters. [/quote:


Obviously piracy matters to someone or we wouldn't be seeing everyone trend towards server check-ins and the RIAA wouldn't exist.

Publishers don't spend money defending themselves from things that they don't care about. Your "only sales matter" shtick doesn't tell the whole tale.
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25.
 
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers
Aug 14, 2010, 22:39
25.
Re: John Carmack on Cloud Gaming and RAGE Dedicated Servers Aug 14, 2010, 22:39
Aug 14, 2010, 22:39
 
ASJD wrote on Aug 14, 2010, 21:58:
You don't understand the purpose of client-side prediction.

You don't either apparently, seeing as you did nothing to enlighten him. And how is the other guy out of touch? Just because you said so?

PS3 has zero piracy? What is the problem, not enough interest?

IBM made the Cell security so ridiculous that people have basically given up. If you want to read up on it, try to wrap your head around this.
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