NKD wrote on Aug 9, 2010, 18:10:
Did people actually expect them to develop a fully featured space sim game along side the RPG they are already making? Come on now. Anyone who is surprised by this did it to themselves.

There's a big gap of more pleasable possibilities between a fully featured space sim und eine Tunnel-Shooter, mein freund.

Did people actually expect them to develop a fully featured space sim game along side the RPG they are already making? Come on now. Anyone who is surprised by this did it to themselves.

PropheT wrote on Aug 9, 2010, 04:04:

Slashman wrote on Aug 8, 2010, 17:45:
Correct. The average MMO player does not want to deal with complexity. Otherwise they would be playing other games.

Err, what?

MMO's are some of the most complex games out there today. There's more to know with even a "simple" one like WoW than with the vast majority of games available today...even that one is complex enough to almost require forum visits just to see what abilities work best for what and in what way you need to manage stats/gear/crafting/abilities/talents and so on.

Amen to your vigilance, PropheT. You're absolutely right by marking that quote as nonsense.

After 5 years of playing WoW I continue to find players who have no idea what they are doing. Literally 7/10 players I inspect have a completely messed up and unpractical talent build, tanks don't know effective routines, healers have a response-time of 5 seconds and so forth.

I was personally very quick with getting to handle WoW professionally, but MMO's are relatively the most complex games out there. Yeah.

maddog wrote on Aug 8, 2010, 21:34:
I'm surprised at the hate towards Battlefront and BF2. I loved the flight portion of 2. Battling it out in space then docking and accomplishing goals inside the ship, I had a good time with it.

And the games were always modable so new maps and skins continue to come out.

MD

Where are the mods and maps? I didn't know SW:Battlefront were moddable! I still have the games!

Slashman wrote on Aug 8, 2010, 17:45:
Correct. The average MMO player does not want to deal with complexity. Otherwise they would be playing other games.

Err, what?

MMO's are some of the most complex games out there today. There's more to know with even a "simple" one like WoW than with the vast majority of games available today...even that one is complex enough to almost require forum visits just to see what abilities work best for what and in what way you need to manage stats/gear/crafting/abilities/talents and so on.

If this is true I wonder why PC Gamer would devote a freaking cover to it... though I guess they have been casual-friendly more and more lately.

Sounds lame, but overall not an issue for me since I'd rather clean public restrooms with my tongue then play any MMO in the first place.

I find this a little tough to swallow. I can see it being simplified in many ways, but I really can't envision them going down the rail shooter route. I hope not anyways. These days, that sort of approach is well below the bottom of the barrel.

If it does turn out to be just manning turrets on larger ships, that's a disappointment for sure and shows the space portion is more of a tacked-on minigame, but at least it isn't ridiculous as it would be with fighters.

I think something WASD+Mouse like Freelancer would probably be ideal. It's straightforward, anyone who has played an FPS can figure it out, and you don't need a joystick or anything. While not quite as good as a full-on space sim like X-Wing with a joystick, it checks most of the right boxes. In truth, it probably even is a more effective control scheme than a joystick, but it does kill the immersion a bit and goes against the WW2 dogfight inspiration for the Star Wars space fights.

Better than nothing; which is what we were expecting a few weeks ago. I can't be the only one who has fond memories of rail shooters like Star Fox, Rebel Assault and Panzer Dragoon.

At least there's the chance they can do this really well. In order to do a full-fledged space sim well, it would need to take up half their development effort. And the rest of the game would have suffered as a result.

I'm surprised at the hate towards Battlefront and BF2. I loved the flight portion of 2. Battling it out in space then docking and accomplishing goals inside the ship, I had a good time with it.

And the games were always modable so new maps and skins continue to come out.

MD

Why even include space combat if it's going to be like that ? Why the fuck would I want to play a rail shooter ever ? I hate it in first person shooters but there at least I only have to do the "event" once.

I'm surprised anyone thought that TOR would have fully-featured space sim mechanics. This is an MMO we're talking about. It needs to appeal to the lowest common denominator and space sims are too complicated for that audience.

Jonny wrote on Aug 8, 2010, 19:13:
Anyone remember all the complaining about how hard the turret minigame was in KotoR? That was literally just lead target and click LMB.

Maybe they were Xbox players complaining. I bought a used copy of Dead Rising, before my brokeBox died twice, and I couldn't do shit on like the very first mission to shoot that guy up on the signs with those damn thumbsticks.

It kinda makes sense. The ships announced so far are both transports, they're not the kind of thing you fly about in like an X-wing. I'm guessing you plot a course for the autopilot and if you're attacked take to the turrets like that bit in the Falcon from the first Star Wars.

Bioware are well aware of how the "average gamer" gets baffled by complexity. Anyone remember all the complaining about how hard the turret minigame was in KotoR? That was literally just lead target and click LMB.

If the average gamer doesn't want the complexity, then open up the pilot's seat to a gamer that does. Put said average gamer in the turret of a capital ship.

Leave the fighters and the flying to either the ai or a capable player. I'd imagine there's be a lot of "LF Pilot" in chat...

Yep, the average mmo player is destroying the genre.

This = auto skip for me.

Casual hand holding game with no depth are not for me.

Have fun with the kiddo crowd. Sorry but i need a challenge when i play a game.

Ray Marden wrote on Aug 8, 2010, 16:31:
I think it makes a lot of sense from the perspective of MMOGs and/or casual players.

I was actually pleasantly surprised that they were going to included space ombat in the first place, but I did immediately wonder how complex it would be. As it stands, a lot of gamers have trouble with straightforward ideas like "Don't stand in fire" so it seems peculiar that they would toss in 3D, joystick-controlled space combat.
It certainly can't have a massive impact on the game.
Something that is on rails or otherwise simplified seems to make more sense if they're aiming at a wider, more casual segment of the market.

Curious as to what the final details are,
Ray

Correct. The average MMO player does not want to deal with complexity. Otherwise they would be playing other games.

I never expected them to make a 'true' 3D space combat game. I would have been extremely surprised if they had. Especially since this is Bioware and they have no experience with that kind of thing.

I can remember playing the "X Wing" and "TIE Fighter" games, but not "X Wing versus TIE Fighter" for some reason. The series could definitely use a resurrection, Wing Commmander could too, since this niche is completely deserted nowadays.

I think it makes a lot of sense from the perspective of MMOGs and/or casual players.

I was actually pleasantly surprised that they were going to included space ombat in the first place, but I did immediately wonder how complex it would be. As it stands, a lot of gamers have trouble with straightforward ideas like "Don't stand in fire" so it seems peculiar that they would toss in 3D, joystick-controlled space combat.
It certainly can't have a massive impact on the game.
Something that is on rails or otherwise simplified seems to make more sense if they're aiming at a wider, more casual segment of the market.

Curious as to what the final details are,
Ray

Why can't BioWare contract the space portion to Totally Games? I'm sure they would LOVE to work on a proper Star Wars space combat component. I know I would feel all happy inside if I knew TG was working on it.