The biggest problem is not the limited number of activations but using GFWL at all. I went back to play Batman:AA the other day and had to start from scratch because my save file had become corrupted, due to the way it encrypts saves and uses different profiles. It makes it horribly difficult to backup saves and progress. It's one of THE worst things to happen to gaming in a long time.

I wish developers would actually think about save game files as more than just a casual afterthought. Why the hell do they not consider people would want to keep their progress, particularly when games are starting to use save files from previous games to shape subsequent ones. And Valve needs to step things up a gear with Steam Cloud, as it's been a joke so far.

Verno wrote on Jan 21, 2010, 12:36:
So as long as Elizabeth at 2k isn't totally incompetent then we should have no install limits in Bioshock 2 at all on any platform.

the problem is, however, that Elizabeth 2K IS totally incompetent (she has always been).

Also you've claimed to purchase GfWL games in the past(Batman was the last one IIRC) but seemingly forgot that you can't register your cdkey to an offline account, I wonder why

I never to had to register anything for Batman or Fallout 3, both of which I pirated before buying. Maybe you only have to register when you have an online GfWL account?

GfWL games that you purchase at online or at a store have a cdkey which in turn gets registered to your GfWL account. In the past someone actually ran into the installation limit by accident and that's how it was discovered, it was entirely hidden from the EULA and boxes to boot. Microsoft removed all install limits when they introduced the 3.0 client in August of 2009. That's how you were able to pirate games and play them but other people ran into the problem.

Also you've claimed to purchase GfWL games in the past(Batman was the last one IIRC) but seemingly forgot that you can't register your cdkey to an offline account, I wonder why

This comment was edited on Jan 21, 2010, 13:50.

I have to question the GfWL install limit. How do they check that if you don't have an online account? I have an offline account which I've used with several pirated games. Also, GfWL and game installation are separate things. You can install and uninstall GfWL separately. Seems pretty iffy.

Edit: Nevermind, Verno clarified.

This comment was edited on Jan 21, 2010, 12:44.

I was mistaken, they abolished the practice with the introduction of GFWL 3.0. Publishers can request activation limits with GfWL but by default all games should have zero.

So as long as Elizabeth at 2k isn't totally incompetent then we should have no install limits in Bioshock 2 at all on any platform.

Thank you Creston and Space Captain! Now that you mention it, I *DO* recall that bit about the Witcher.

And as for shutting down legit software, that's also a big problem. Altho Roxio should have sorted this out with SecuROM long ago (along the lines of "we're suing you for shutting down our legit software and costing us tons in sales."), it's still a notable issue.

Ok so SecuROM does have issues. With games that don't come on physical media, what's the point of it?

Also I was unaware of the 15-install limit on GFWL games, but really...how many times are you going to install one game? I think Starcraft is the only title I have that may have been installed more than 10 times, and that game is over 10 years old. There are very, very few games out now that I see myself bothering to play in 10 years.

Like a lot of other people this has been a pretty confusing situation for me, I finally just decided to look up some info on it. Relevant points below:

- ALL Games for Windows Live games have a 15 install limit. I had no clue about this as it seems to be completely hidden from casual discovery.

- SecuRom is a disk check only for the retail edition, no activation or DRM installed (other than GfWL's activation)

- They haven't confirmed what the Steam version will entail yet, they are looking into it and will get an answer by the end of this week.

I don't think I'm going to get it or any other GfWL games going forward, I had no idea there was a hidden limitation. The situation however is far different than the rumors that have been floating around due to Elizabeth at 2k giving conflicting info.

Word of mouth is what made Bioshock a success zzet, it can also be it's undoing. The buzz on Bioshock 2 was already fairly "eh whatever" before we even heard this news.

There's a simple response here: don't buy the game. Unfortunately, if history is to be and indication of what will happen, the simple response will be outweighed considerably by the simple people who will put up with this thing.

Which is probably why 2K games are still doing it.

if there's going to be rules that corps must act to the blind whims of it's shareholders then maybe there should be contraints placed on shareholders to have some fucking clue of the industry their investing in before they're given the right to demand anything. you want to invest in some random company fine, you dont' want to learn fuck all about it's industry, fine, then stfu and roll the dice. they should quit trying to impose their ignorant collective wills without at least some specific education in the subject.

otoh perhaps this is just more of a purposeful attempt to seperate gamers from their pc's as gaming devices so we can all give up and realize the bliss that can had being locked down in consolitis.

It's apparent everywhere, like when this board claims that marketing serves no purpose, or when they claim all console users are inferior to PC gamers.

Now that's a bit of a generalization. Nobody claims that console gamers are inferior in all respects. They just have lower standards, which is why they embrace lower framerates, resolutions, AA, AF and playing shooters with a gamepad.

Except the whole point of this nonsense to stop pirates... when it inevitably fails, shouldn't shareholders and boards realize that it's a waste of time and money? One would certainly hope so but I guess you can't underestimate the stupidity of most people.

Most people think piracy can be stopped and therefore would rather see you make every attempt possible than simply give in.

And yes, you cannot underestimate the stupidity of most people. It's apparent everywhere, like when this board claims that marketing serves no purpose, or when they claim all console users are inferior to PC gamers.

Moving saved games to the cloud is brilliant, from the publisher's point of view. Who wants to play a game of any significant length that can't save?

From a gamer's point of view, of course, it's abhorrent, but since the game will sell millions of copies regardless, it'll happen. It's a good thing big-name video games are hardly worth playing these days.

Skoll wrote on Jan 20, 2010, 17:58:
I didn't buy the first Bioshock until after the activation limits were removed. Definitely won't be purchasing this until the same thing happens.

For once im not complaining about activation limits.

Are you really going to use 15 before they (almost guaranteed since they removed it in BS1) remove the limit?

Im more pissed off at the SecuROM and even more pissed at the GfWL. I got fucked hardcore for months with Fallout 3 DLC and this shit. Specifically the 'if your game is on a drive other than C: your fucked' issue. I hear it is fixed now tho.

I also hope they don't pull the fucked up FOV setting on widescreen displays again.

This comment was edited on Jan 20, 2010, 18:14.

I didn't buy the first Bioshock until after the activation limits were removed. Definitely won't be purchasing this until the same thing happens.

Creston wrote on Jan 20, 2010, 16:26:

SecuROM has prevented Roxio CD-Burning software from simply working for quite a few years now

I love how it fucks with D-Tools off and on. Granted yes to some extent D-Tools is designed to get around copy protection but I use it constantly to mount disks from my file server so I don't have to whip the disks out every time I need something.

If they release a game with this nonsense and it doesn't sell well they can blame pirates.

Except the whole point of this nonsense to stop pirates... when it inevitably fails, shouldn't shareholders and boards realize that it's a waste of time and money? One would certainly hope so but I guess you can't underestimate the stupidity of most people.

I rented the first on 360 and thoroughly enjoyed it, considered buying but decided while the game was worth the money, there was not enough repayability to justify the purchase when I'd already completed it.

I was just going to buy this one, on PC. But now I'll maybe rent for the 360 again, if I get around to it.

-1 sale chalked up to GfWL & DRM

Apparently only Brad Wardell is smart enough to figure this out. The rest of the gaming industry really is this stupid.

More covering their asses.
Brad Wardell has a small company and less of a need to.
Larger companies are afraid that if they release a game without all this nonsense and it's heavily pirated they'll be slaughtered for not making an attempt. If they release a game with this nonsense and it doesn't sell well they can blame pirates.

Idiotic and frustrating, but not a sign of stupidity, a sign of fear of shareholders and boards that aren't as well educated on the matter.